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Nonsense. I'm contributing snarky comedy to the thread. And how dare you say otherwise!

And I never said GW wasn't intelligent. Don't put the goalposts you keep moving into my mouth Talys!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. I'm contributing snarky comedy to the thread. And how dare you say otherwise!

And I never said GW wasn't intelligent. Don't put the goalposts you keep moving into my mouth Talys!

Oops. I guess I misread...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Plastic Flesh Hounds would'a been a really good idea.

So it makes sense that GW aren't doing them.

I like snark. But some non-snark here or there wouldn't hurt.

And hey. I play with GW rules. This is Maelstrom of War, where the goalposts are different every turn. And besides, if you don't like the rules, the solution is not to play, or to make up your own and play with like-minded folks

Since we are TOTALLY off topic. And nobody has answered me in the 40k thread. If anyone who's watching THIS thread has an opinion of whether Space Marine scouts should go on a 32mm base instead of 25mm, please PM me! Or reply to the other thread in 40k GD, which is what I popped online to check.

Are we done with this topic?

 Azreal13 wrote:
You forgot

[spoiler]

Ask and ye shall receive...

Eisenkern APC

But wait, there's more!

For the commander who never has enough firepower...

This APC/IFV conversion kit will put a smile on even the most hardened vets face

But if that isn't good enough, we have one more!

ROCKETS! On movable mounts, no less.

Operators are standing by.

Wait, that thing is cheaper* than a Taurox, but sports:

Linked movable front steering
Rotating soft plastic wheels
Green tint see through windows
Working doors hatches and hood
Movable defense gantry
Detailed crew compartment
12 seated crew

on top of it looking like it might actually be used/useful in combat.

...Dang!

*On sale at $45 from $65, Taurox is $50.

Yeah, but it doesn't have any skulls, so that's a big negative.

By the way, my apologies to your wallet.

Herzlos wrote:
Wait, that thing is cheaper* than a Taurox, but sports:

Linked movable front steering
Rotating soft plastic wheels
Green tint see through windows
Working doors hatches and hood
Movable defense gantry
Detailed crew compartment
12 seated crew

on top of it looking like it might actually be used/useful in combat.

...Dang!

*On sale at $45 from $65, Taurox is $50.

Yes, which is why those of us with a less GW-centric view tend to scoff a little when people try to claim that GW kits are 'premium' or 'superior.'

 Talys wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying that none exist. But there aren't a lot, and they aren't great for army-building, which is my thing.

That's a pretty narrow view, considering that the only manufacturer who uses vehicles en-masse is Games Workshop and said in-universe vehicles are designed to be generally incompatible with any other system. You are by-definition excluding all other manufacturers who don't create garage kits expressly for use in 40k.

While it is understandable that GW would want to position itself in such a fashion by slathering its offerings with an almost impenetrable wall of IP protected gribbles - I think Games Workshop is definitely limiting itself by not producing more generic base kits with separate frames of IP protected gribbles. If the Taurox had options for wheels, all the iconography was separate or built onto separate panels, (and it was a tad cheaper... I mean $60!!!!), it could see use with other systems as an APC/Truck and or scatter terrain. The separate iconography would let users customize their vehicle's markings without having the skulls/banners/purity seals in the same place AND allow non-GW customers to use it. The same with their terrain. It is with much frustration that the AoS terrain has all the crazy gribbles built right into the frames. This means that every fething wall section / arch looks the same AND limits the audience for these kits - from within the GW customer base AND beyond. Realistically, there's no reason that the "Wall of Martyrs" needs to have guardsmen molded right onto the base... what about the population of gamers that don't play Imperial Gua... ahem... Astra Millitarum? Its telling that the best selling terrain kits are the generic ones: The discontinued "3rd Edition Gothic Ruins", "Fortified Manor House", "Ruins of Osgiliath" and "Necromunda Bulkheads" were very good value. The more recent "Dreadstone Blight" and "Skullvane Manse" were awesome, if somewhat expensive. Even the old "Arcane Ruins" and "Temple of Skulls" are more flexible than the new kits they are putting out. Alas, they are all DISCONTINUED. Its insane that just a short time ago the Temple of Skulls was $40cdn for a gigantic kit and now $40 buys you almost nothing, terrain wise. I'm convinced that the "worn out molds" is a weak excuse considering that the plastic battlefield accessories have been around since 40k 2nd Edition.

It really does feel that GW has adopted a more adversarial approach with their customers. There is a thin veneer of "buy what you like" over a sea of "we don't care what you think".

This attitude is really concentrated at the management level. The frontline employees are usually much more open about the company's shortcomings. I don't often frequent the GW outlets, now that they are few and far between and the product is more easily accessible online - I have noticed, both at our local GW and at Gencon that the staffers are much more open about talking about GW's direct competition, be it Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli or Privateer Press. It wasn't that long ago - maybe 5 years - that openly talking about other systems in their outlets was frowned upon, if not forbidden. I don't dispute that a lot of the product on offer is of high quality... Only that the price does not match the offering. The current clippers had better be artificer level, master-crafted and ignore armor saves, as $40cdn for a pair of clippers is insane... (disclaimer: the old clippers were pretty good, and I would probably part with $25 for a set of them...) The $30cdn measuring tool is insane... metal or not...

 Swastakowey wrote:


I thought an intelligent business wants all people as customers... Everything GW does goes against that.

Judging by your "insight" you don't have much to do with running a business in your line of work.

An intelligent business will seek to maximise it's achievement of the goals that it has said. This is generally maximum profit.

Maximising customers may be an objective but it is not a particularly intelligent aim. The sacrifices in terms of price that will have to be made will render the business more or less unprofitable.

Additionally, there are some things, and Miniature Wargames would be one of them, where all people would not become customers. Loads of people would have no interest in Wh40k even for £0.50 a model or less.

Here is a good introduction for good business practice and a basis from which to view the situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Games workshop are producing a product they believe should be high value, and operate in a niche, this is high up the supply curve. Due to the presupposed inelasticity of demand for their product, the Demand Curve will alter gradient, and their profit will increase. So they are not bothered by maximising production and maximising the market due to the costs of production, and the opportunity to sell at a higher price in a niche market. This is in fact intelligent business practice.

Judging by your insight you've never studied business at any level beyond 14.

 IGtR= wrote:
Games workshop are producing a product they believe should be high value, and operate in a niche, this is high up the supply curve. Due to the presupposed inelasticity of demand for their product, the Demand Curve will alter gradient, and their profit will increase. So they are not bothered by maximising production and maximising the market due to the costs of production, and the opportunity to sell at a higher price in a niche market. This is in fact intelligent business practice.

Just because Games Workshop believes the product is high value doesn't make it the case in practice. The inelasticity of demand for their product is also presumed (y'know... market research being otiose in a niche and all that). While price might actually be inelastic for some customers, it is obviously not the case for all customers as sales volume is demonstrably lower year over year. Games Workshop would need to make up revenue either by raising prices or replacing lost customers. As Games Workshop does not advertise outside its own network, they have doubled down on the option of raising prices.

Not entirely sure this is intelligent business practice.

The problem is that GW may well have priced their product beyond the elasticity of the market - and there is a price for breaking Gersham's Law.

You can't price a Yugo as if it were a Mercedes.

The Auld Grump

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Are we done with this topic?

If we want to talk about scifi vehicle models, we should take it to a new thread, instead of tacking it onto this one? Would be a far more positive thread, anyhow. It is possible to talk about alternate manufacturers of scifi models without being pro- or anti-GW, too, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:

 IGtR= wrote:
Games workshop are producing a product they believe should be high value, and operate in a niche, this is high up the supply curve. Due to the presupposed inelasticity of demand for their product, the Demand Curve will alter gradient, and their profit will increase. So they are not bothered by maximising production and maximising the market due to the costs of production, and the opportunity to sell at a higher price in a niche market. This is in fact intelligent business practice.

Just because Games Workshop believes the product is high value doesn't make it the case in practice. The inelasticity of demand for their product is also presumed (y'know... market research being otiose in a niche and all that). While price might actually be inelastic for some customers, it is obviously not the case for all customers as sales volume is demonstrably lower year over year. Games Workshop would need to make up revenue either by raising prices or replacing lost customers. As Games Workshop does not advertise outside its own network, they have doubled down on the option of raising prices.

Not entirely sure this is intelligent business practice.

I was gonna leave this thread, but since there is some more on-topic stuff

GW's new MO is to keep prices of the old kits the same, raise prices of new replacement kits (with new models) of stuff that sells and -- most significantly -- crank up the release schedule. Note that for AoS, the troops model prices (old stuff that isn't selling) are being dropped significantly, down as low as $1.50 or $1.75 per model, I think.

In this way, its core customers will get more value AND spend more money. It just goes back to making the core customers happy at the expense (or frustration) of customers GW determines as non-core. The vast majority of the stuff they come out for is great for people who are into the fluff and the models -- for example, newer, better assault marines, devastators, or jetbikes appeal to a very specific niche, but that niche will guaranteed buy those models in multiples; just like newer splashier codexes in full color and in hardcover appeal to a specific type of person.

I do not believe that GW is "unintelligent", because any company's management that can turn double-digit profit margins in this niche market on hundreds of millions of dollars of sales and employs thousands of people is not stupid; this is not mutually exclusive with the fact that, like every company, they haven't made bad decisions and that with hindsight, they wouldn't do some things differently. They're brighter than me, though: I haven't built such a company. Before anyone denigrates them by calling them unintelligent, they should ask themselves if they could or if the have done anything comparable -- if not, then they're raising the bar for intelligence to a height that they themselves can't cross.

If GW was smart, they'd make Dreadnoughts Monstrous Creatures.

Boom, instant sales.

 Talys wrote:
Note that for AoS, the troops model prices (old stuff that isn't selling) are being dropped significantly, down as low as $1.50 or $1.75 per model, I think.

Can you substantiate this? The two regiment boxes that have been redone to my knowledge are the Dryads (+17% purchase price, +33% contents - essentially buy 14 dryads, get 2 free) and the Plague Monks (+0% purchase price, +0% contents). I feel that price per miniature is poor metric. There's only two types of units in AoS... Those that have an ability based on unit size breakpoint, and those that don't. Depending on the updated rules: Right now, there may be some advantage in buying Dryads in a box of 16 over the old box of 12, since the breakpoint for their special ability is 12. Presently: the Plague Monks have zero advanatage to being in a box of 20. For those who are model builder / painters only: Unless they are building a full ranked unit (also gone the way of the Squats), I feel it is unlikely they will be using the whole box at once - so I think they'll be generally indifferent to the price per model and be more sensitive to the overall capital cost of the box.

Trying to address GW seeming unintelligent, this article caught my eye:

http://www.chipscholz.com/2013/04/25/leadership-decisions-how-to-avoid-faulty-thinking/

It seems to track well with "decision biases".

"There are plenty of examples of faulty thinking and decision biases. Each of us can learn to recognize the kinds of flawed thinking that contribute to decision errors:

So maybe they are just plagued with a bad case of the classic decision bias that we are all prone to?

Hey, cool site, then they came up with these gems:

http://www.chipscholz.com/2011/06/28/why-smart-people-make-stupid-mistakes/

...intelligent, well-educated people are particularly susceptible to five fallacies that stop them from making wise choices and actions...
Ouch, Kirby, you know this stuff?

More:

Optimism fuels success. And success augments our belief in ourselves, sometimes too much.
Here’s a passage from Marshall Goldsmith’s What Got You Here, Won’t Get You There:

 keezus wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Note that for AoS, the troops model prices (old stuff that isn't selling) are being dropped significantly, down as low as $1.50 or $1.75 per model, I think.

Can you substantiate this? The two regiment boxes that have been redone to my knowledge are the Dryads (+17% purchase price, +33% contents - essentially buy 14 dryads, get 2 free) and the Plague Monks (+0% purchase price, +0% contents). I feel that price per miniature is poor metric. There's only two types of units in AoS... Those that have an ability based on unit size breakpoint, and those that don't. Depending on the updated rules: Right now, there may be some advantage in buying Dryads in a box of 16 over the old box of 12, since the breakpoint for their special ability is 12. Presently: the Plague Monks have zero advanatage to being in a box of 20. For those who are model builder / painters only: Unless they are building a full ranked unit (also gone the way of the Squats), I feel it is unlikely they will be using the whole box at once - so I think they'll be generally indifferent to the price per model and be more sensitive to the overall capital cost of the box.

The blood reavers are 20 to a box now, too. Plague monks seem really cheap, but I am actually not really familiar with the old boxes, as I am not a fantasy guy. I don't think that PPM is really that important either, but other people bring it up a lot, as in "I can buy x models for y price in z game". It is somewhat important in that people like to compare prices of different models from different companies.

One tactic that I had as a weapon of last resort for GW was to sell its troop type, generic models at dirt cheap prices and kill the market for them. In other words, if they're not making money from elves with bows, sell them at $0.50 per model, and people of other game systems will buy them, dorcif companies that write rules for free to generate revenue elsewhere.

GW can do this better than other companies because it owns its own plants, already has HIPS molds long since paid for, and makes most of its money on 40k anyhow. I mean, if people want low priced models, give it to them, right?

 Talys wrote:
The blood reavers are 20 to a box now, too.

Blood Reavers are a new box at $58/20. These aren't a repack.

 Talys wrote:
One tactic that I had as a weapon of last resort for GW was to sell its troop type, generic models at dirt cheap prices and kill the market for them. In other words, if they're not making money from elves with bows, sell them at $0.50 per model, and people of other game systems will buy them, dorcif companies that write rules for free to generate revenue elsewhere.

I was under the impression in your previous post that this was happening already. Thanks for the clarification.

 keezus wrote:

I was under the impression in your previous post that this was happening already. Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, I think they are just trying to make the game attractive for new players atm. At least the prices haven't gone *up* (generally) and there seem to be some well priced bundles (at least on the GW scale). I don't think they're anywhere near scorched earth yet -- prices would have to drop to about a third of their current levels -- maybe $15 for a box of 50 (with all discounts figured in) and suddenly the landscape for rank-and-file models becomes very tough for everyone.

The way to make that happen would be direct-only, and minimum $50 for free shipping. Then a person and their buddy would have to order 3 boxes to get free shipping, and it basically screws anyone else making generic dwarves, elves, etc. Not that nobody else would buy other models, but people who see models only as tokens, or people on a budget, or people who just wanted to bulk up their armies would go there.

It would force other companies to focus on making more expensive specialist models (because sales volumes will be lower), which indirectly helps GW by making their own pricier models seem more in line with industry averages.

 Talys wrote:
I don't think they're anywhere near scorched earth yet -- prices would have to drop to about a third of their current levels -- maybe $15 for a box of 50 (with all discounts figured in) and suddenly the landscape for rank-and-file models becomes very tough for everyone.

I think it is very unlikely that GW will lower prices, let alone lower to that extent. There is no need to go to the 50/$20MSRP route. On top of being needlessly cheap, there are few units in the game (with the possible exception of skeletons and gobblins) that would want units of that size. This sales model will similarly not function for 40k. Cheaper prices may improve GW's customer uptake. It will definitely pressure its competition. Lowering prices to the extent you suggest seems to serve no useful purpose.

 keezus wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I don't think they're anywhere near scorched earth yet -- prices would have to drop to about a third of their current levels -- maybe $15 for a box of 50 (with all discounts figured in) and suddenly the landscape for rank-and-file models becomes very tough for everyone.

I think it is very unlikely that GW will lower prices, let alone lower to that extent. There is no need to go to the 50/$20MSRP route. On top of being needlessly cheap, there are few units in the game (with the possible exception of skeletons and gobblins) that would want units of that size. This sales model will similarly not function for 40k. Cheaper prices may improve GW's customer uptake. It will definitely pressure its competition. Lowering prices to the extent you suggest seems to serve no useful purpose.

No, I wasn't suggesting for 40k -- only generic fantasy models to which there are obvious competitors. So, elves, dwarves, humans, Orcs, goblins. Flood market with cheap models, and force other manufacturers to derive profits from specialist models, which essentially drives up the price of everything OTHER than common fantasy generics.

You don't flood the market out of the goodness of your heart, but to take away the market from your competitors. At a scorched earth price, not only do you kill the generic market by creating an unsustainable ceiling price, but because the niche is so small, a big chunk of the customers will buy their elves, dwarves, and Orcs and never need them again for the rest of their lives.

It would be very hard for a competitor to do this to GW on the 40k side, because people buy 40k models specifically because they're 40k models, because of the modularity, the aesthetic, the collection, et cetera.

GW fantasy figures arguably are not generic, they are recogniseably GW style and scale, and don't fit well with other ranges.

It's true that GW has got a large back catalogue of plastic rank and file fantasy figures, for which the capital costs of moulds have been amortised long since. It won't cost them much to print off copies and sell them cheaply..

However if GW are pursuing a premium pricing policy, they will not want to confuse their own customers by offering figures that cost a fraction of the comparable new AoS kits. Sigmarines are basically £6 each for infantry figures. Even with the relative size and detail in mind, it will be difficult for people to swallow that price when compared to another fantasy infantry figure costing say £1.50.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
However if GW are pursuing a premium pricing policy, they will not want to confuse their own customers by offering figures that cost a fraction of the comparable new AoS kits. Sigmarines are basically £6 each for infantry figures. Even with the relative size and detail in mind, it will be difficult for people to swallow that price when compared to another fantasy infantry figure costing say £1.50.

This is already the case though:

Sigmarite Liberator £30 / 5 = £6 ea

Bloodreaver £35 / 20 = £1.75 ea
Sylvaneth Dryad £25 / 16 = £1.56 ea
Skaven Plague Monk £20.50 / 20 = £1.03 ea

We'll see as the other factions pan out, what the ppm of older models becomes.

But I mean, really, when was the last time you saw anyone buy peasant bowmen, Bretonian men-at-arms or Knights Errant? There are a few boxes of those with sun-bleached spines that have been sitting at my favorite store for *years*. Or even High Elf Archers & Spearmen, for that matter. If you wanted to play those models with AoS, it would work, but you'd still have to buy the big expensive models to play against most people -- GW is counting on the Plagueclaws and such to make up for the cheap skaven sales.

Well then, I suppose that is why people might regard GW as unintelligent. They don't seem to understand the psychology of premium price brands.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I agree 100%

For example the car models appeal to people who:
Love cars
Love a car or 2
Love modeling and cars
Love doing custom paint jobs on car displays
Love doing custom paint jobs on car displays for bedrooms, shops or workshops

And the list goes on. We all know cars are far more popular than we can probably fathom. Makes sense to make model cars for that huge group of the world. Same with history. More people know/like the Tiger tank than people will ever like an X wing etc.

Maybe it is because Sci Fi does not have the technical side of things sorted or the deep history, stories and details behind it to keep people interested for long. You cannot make a model of a Land Raider that works beyond looking cool. Looking cool only lasts for so long. Take the land raider, we have very vague information on how it works, why it is the way it is or how it was developed. How much armour does it have? How long does it take to make? How many stories do we have of the tanks crew? How has it changed how Space Marines fight? What are it's draw backs? How does it perform non combat wise? What is it's operational range? What did crews do to the tanks to improve its use on the battle field? Does it have technical issues that never got addressed?

The amount of depth to a land raider is nothing compared to even the tanks we have next to no information about. How is the average person going to be interested in such a thing for long? It's only substance is it's appearance and that only goes so far. The Sci Fi would have to be deep and very well thought out to make a major line of model kits that people will care about decade after decade.

A large part of what makes something cool is knowledge of what it is.

In isolation, I don't think there's anything cool about a Land Raider. It's a boxy tank with bad suspension and chunky details. IMO opinion it's knowledge of where the tank lies within the 40k universe that makes it cool.

Same with Space Marines (at least for me). They look kind of derpy with their giant flares, giant shoulders, armour that doesn't look like it would allow much movement and hideous proportions. As someone who has been collecting 40k for so long I had kind of forgotten that until someone who was new to the game pointed out to me how stupid they look

It's not just 40k, I didn't see Star Wars until I was in my mid teens and had been collecting historic models prior to that... when I saw models of TIE fighters and X-wings for the first time I thought they looked pretty stupid as well.

There aren't too many things that are inherently cool (if anything?). I tend to think making generic futuristic models or generic fantasy models isn't going to produce a large market, you sell the universe as much as you sell the individual models and GW have done a good job of using a game to introduce people to a universe and in turn get them excited about the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
But I mean, really, when was the last time you saw anyone buy peasant bowmen, Bretonian men-at-arms or Knights Errant? There are a few boxes of those with sun-bleached spines that have been sitting at my favorite store for *years*.

The Bretonnian men at arms are some of my favourite models in the WHFB line up, I have quite a lot of the blighters. I haven't bought any recently and frankly I doubt anyone has bought any recently because the last Bretonnian Army Book came out more than 11 years ago.

 Talys wrote:
But I mean, really, when was the last time you saw anyone buy peasant bowmen, Bretonian men-at-arms or Knights Errant? There are a few boxes of those with sun-bleached spines that have been sitting at my favorite store for *years*. Or even High Elf Archers & Spearmen, for that matter. If you wanted to play those models with AoS, it would work, but you'd still have to buy the big expensive models to play against most people -- GW is counting on the Plagueclaws and such to make up for the cheap skaven sales.

The bretonnian boys were likely sold in the inmediate years following their last released armybook: eleven years and two editions ago (not counting AoS here of course). You can't expect a product to keep selling when you try your hardest to completely neglect it and give it no support. Also those models face competition from historical ranges which tend to offer alternatives of similar - if not higher - quality for a fraction of the price.

Regarding Elves, I don't even know where to begin with. Easy example: GW sells 10 plastic Phoenix Guards for 34€ (and that doesn't even make them the most expensive elves of GW's range, lol), while Mom Miniatures offers 10 Elves with Halberds, resin models of arguably even higher quality, for 15€.

So good luck trying to blame the potential customers for not buying an overpriced and mostly outdated product, while the market is blooming with better alternatives.

Can somebody more familiar with WH Fantasy comment: I believe the Plague Monks aren't even that old. Aren't they circa Island of Blood???

Herzlos wrote:
Wait, that thing is cheaper* than a Taurox, but sports:

Linked movable front steering
Rotating soft plastic wheels
Green tint see through windows
Working doors hatches and hood
Movable defense gantry
Detailed crew compartment
12 seated crew

on top of it looking like it might actually be used/useful in combat.

...Dang!

*On sale at $45 from $65, Taurox is $50.

I know, it's hard for people who play GW games to imagine a vehicle that is designed to actually seat the number of occupants that it's stated to be carrying around. INSANITY!!!!1!!11!!

 keezus wrote:
Can somebody more familiar with WH Fantasy comment: I believe the Plague Monks aren't even that old. Aren't they circa Island of Blood???

Oh, plague monks are much older than that. They came out at least five years ago, although I'm pretty sure they're older than that by twice that amount.

@Accolade: Wow. 2005. They seemed much newer... The ones that I KNOW are old... Empire State Troops, Free Company, Knights, High Elf Spears are absolutely ancient. Warhammer Fantasy really IS team No Love.