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 Eldarain wrote:
I think you're being too honest Talys. Kirby is going to have you abducted for cloning.

Though it would save the company...

On a serious note: Just having Talys' mentality is not sufficient. The clone (and or other customers of similar thought) need to have the same (or greater) financial means.

 Talys wrote:
@Gwai - there is no question that I buy more stuff than I can paint. Partly, this is because I like to keep bits inventories. I have every space marine box broken down and sorted into cases with little trays of each part so that whatever I want to model is there. For example, when BA upgrades came out, I bought 12, so that I'd have 12 of each shoulder pad to build complete squads. I used up 11 each of 2 pads; so now that they are back in stock, I ordered 10 more. The remainder are all bits.

In part, this is practical. If you want to kitbash a particular pose, say, you want a hand that's holding onto a door, you can't check it without physically trying a bunch of hands. You can't choose a pair of legs from a catalogue; you need to bluetac it to the model to see how it looks. So, the ability to express creativity is constrained by the availability of parts (assuming that I want to minimize sculpting).

In part, it's because I dream of painting all of my models, and my wallet is more powerful than my brush But I am not unique in this.

This does make sense. One other way that my personal idiosyncrasies differ from yours though is that I have no interest in GW chapters, craftworlds, etc. So I wouldn't collect a Wolves army, Blood Angels, Alaitoc, Ulthwe etc. I prefer to use my own paint scheme so I just have one Eldar army that depending on my tastes of the day will field an Iyanden style army one day and Biel Tann the next. Same with Marines. So I would have less incentive to get the various modifier sprues and a swarm of new tactical marines since the ones I already have would do the job. Not that I wouldn't get any. I like the Dark Angels shoulder pads so the whole army would have those even though I wouldn't be using their colors.

I can see the appeal of having a collection of different marine chapters, but if I were to go that route, it would probably be much more limited than what you appear to do.

Finally, you get a lot better and faster at painting and modelling if you paint and model a lot. If you look at my gallery and hit blood angels, every model but one was painted after the codex release, and representative of some significant squad numbers (I didn't post up all 30 death company, for instance, nor each razorback and each drop pod, etc.). They might not be international competition quality, but they're reasonably decent, I think -- and I'm certain I could paint up $5000-$6000 a year to this standard, painting about 3-4 hours a night, a little more on weekends.

That's why I mentioned that even if I was having everything commissioned, something I wouldn't do because I enjoy the painting and modeling even though I'm not that good and excruciatingly slow, I still don't think I'd keep up the spending pace of $1,000 a month on GW stuff.

By the way, a thousand bucks a month doesn't even cover things like expensive hobby tools. You can easily spend a few hundred bucks on an airbrush (or another airbrush), for example. You can easily spend a few thousand dollars on renovations for extracting fumes. Or a commercial drill press, or any number of other fancy tools.

But GW doesn't see all the ancillary spending. Sure they may get money for paint, brushes and some tools, but they aren't selling you the commercial drill press or sending workers and materials for renovating. And even a super fan doesn't really have a reason to use GW exclusively for cutters, sanders, brushes and whatnot if other stuff is available that is better.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that 'my way is the right way', just trying to shed light on how you get to that volume of hobby spending.

I get this. I'm not trying to argue against your way of doing things and I'm sure that you aren't the only one that does things like you. It's just that even if you remove every financial and temporal obstacle and thereby have the makings of a superfan, it still would be, at least for those who are similar to me, unlikely that GW could rely regularly on $1,000 per month.

And even if i had unlimited resources available to get GW stuff, flawed rules really detract from my enthusiasm and create the risk that I'll lose interest. For others it is a deal breaker entirely even if they otherwise prefer the setting to any other option. This is where GW is unintelligent if they really are just trying to keep the high volume purchasing super fan happy. I doubt bad rules just drive off the $500 per year guy. They are sure to drive off potential $10,000 a year guys. For some the game is the most important part. They'll buy huge quantities of models so they can try every aspect of the game system if the system is a quality one. But if there are only limited options that function well in the rules, they either limit themselves to those options, or lose interest and stop.

GW treating rules as something where quality doesn't matter surely costs them customers throughout the range of potential expenditures and that is an unintelligent thing to do. You may be happy with your garage group, but others would find playing the same core group loses its novelty after a while. Playing someone you don't know whose playstyle and tactics are unexpected is fresh and interesting. But with a bad ruleset, attempting that becomes problematic.

Maybe GW can stay profitable long term just going after guys like you, but by not courting others who could be lured into spending just as much as you do, as well as swarms of people who would contribute their own, lesser funds, GW seems to be making unintelligent decisions. Unless decisions that attract one group, necessarily repulse another, it makes no sense to not work to attract both.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
But GW doesn't see all the ancillary spending. Sure they may get money for paint, brushes and some tools, but they aren't selling you the commercial drill press or sending workers and materials for renovating. And even a super fan doesn't really have a reason to use GW exclusively for cutters, sanders, brushes and whatnot if other stuff is available that is better.

Absolutely true. The most GW gets from me in hobby tools are paint and occasional brushes, which they share that with Vallejo, Winsor & Newton, Liquitex, and that kind of stuff. A lot of the modelling supplies, even when they're for GW models are not from GW, too -- like Woodland Scenics shakers, Tamiya stir sticks, generic 100-count knife blades, etc.

I should probably qualify it as an annual average, rather than an absolute, because I'm sure there's months where I don't spend that much, but other months when I spend much more. For example, I've probably only spent a few hundred dollars this month (I bought the sigmarites and the fantasy terrain, plus the 2 books), plus a GBP100 purchase at Forge World (the centurion and a sicaran) and I probably won't buy anything else, because I'm not really a Fantasy or Chaos person -- it has to do with GW's releases and what interests me, plus of course, any projects that require more models.

From month to month, it really depends what I want to paint/model and what new releases GW launches. If it is 28mm troops like tacticals, $150-$300 would keep me really busy. But if they're hundred dollar tanks and jets that are airbrush-heavy, I can blow through a thousand bucks like nobody's business. If GW releases nothing I want (most of the WHFB months in the past), I buy almost nothing; if GW releases something like Deathstorm or Stormclaw, I'll buy 5 boxes. What GW did really well (in terms of getting money out of me) in the last year was launch a lot of products that I wanted.

Regarding the ruleset -- the reason 40k works for me is that I play with a fixed group of friends at my home (previously, at a friend's home). It makes house ruling anything you don't like very easy, plus you're always playing with the same people who enjoy the game the same way that you do, so you don't get nasty TFG surprises or games that are excruciatingly slow. We are all pretty reasonable guys, and the focus is more "build a scenario and play it out" than "surprise me with your 1850 points". Quite often, the models on the play table are not symmetric in point values to compensate for model deficiencies. Sometimes, we want to play terminators to defend a wall, and recognize that they suck, so we field more. But other times, we want to put a good model in a tight jam. For example, *scouts* with light weaponry must hold a fortification for x turns.

A huge part of the desire to play not at a local club is transport: when I was a teenager, I carted off models to a gaming club every week, but back then, I could do it with an armload of models and 1 trip to the car. Now, I think it would take 3 hours to pack my models and terrain that I want to use, and the latter would fill up my trunk. Plus stuff would get damaged because how exactly do you pack a bunch of Raiders? Even a well-painted drop pod is not easy to transport, because I avoid closing the doors (it rubs paint off the hinges). I mean, forget it.

In our group, in the last 15 years or so that we've been gaming privately, whoever is the volunteer host also provides storage for a reasonable number of models, particularly stuff that is just hard to move back and forth. In this respect, 40k has become much less friendly as a "games night at the local store game", I think. But the big models that are hard to transport are also very popular among fans (ie they sell well).

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Price wasn't what put me off the games. Them becoming crappy games is what put me off.

Same here.

QFT. I have both an entirely metal IG army (Steel Legion @ +25,000 points) and Sisters of Battle (@ +10,000 points) and then my CSM (Khorne Based @ +5000 points) along with a couple thousand solely in Inquisition as well. I still have more things I'd like to purchase of each of my armies, but it is not the price of models that stops me. It is the now, IMO, crappy rules/games associated with those models. I was quite happy playing in 3rd, 4th and 5th edition despite each of those editions drawbacks. They were still at least mostly playable for PUG's and FLGS tournaments. Feth, GW even used to sponsor some of those events. I had fun playing in 'ard Boyz.

Since we were so pleased with 5th, most of my local play group and I were really looking forward to 6th. Needless to say we were a bit disappointed. But not at first, no, we still had hope. But as 6th edition continue, we became more and more disinterested in 40k because of how the game was playing, or rather not playing. Several of us even bought into the whole limited edition hard bound 6th BRB. At lease 5 of us, myself included. When we learned that 7th would be coming out not even 2 years into 6th's life cycle, that was the final straw for most. Not because of the money spent on said rule book (although that was the case for some) but because we felt very burned by GW as customers. Maybe had GW offered an even slight discount on a 7th BRB for those that had purchased the limited edition 6th BRB, that might have gained back some good will. But once 7th actually dropped and many of us saw how much worse it was than 6th was (which we didn't think was possible at the time) and how 7th was supposed to fix the mistake that was 6th and it wasn't.

Our 40k days used to take up most to of all the tables in our FLGS, and now they maybe take up two tables, with the rest now divided between WM/H and Bolt Action and FoW and Star Wars X-Wing. There are still people that come into paint 40k models, but regular play has tanked. I would love to revive 40k, but without the game/rules improving, I couldn't and wouldn't even begin to do so. I am actually looking forward to 8th and if there is change for the better then GW will start getting $1000's of my money again. If not, then I guess I will sell off what I have and continue to take my money elsewhere, mostly to MTG these days.

Incidentally, I agree that during the whole period from late 2012-2014 GW fell flat on rules-writing.

For us, it wasn't really that we disliked 6e or 7e or any particular rule, it's just that it felt like GW changed course too many times in too short a period of time (and never finishing a cycle).

On the other hand, what we like to call 7.5 has been quite good -- essentially everything post 2015, including and after Codex: Necron -- in terms of external balance, providing a reason to play fluffy combinations of models, and a genuine attempt towards internal balance. Codex: Harlequins is the only faction that felt weak, mostly attributable to a low number of models and the feeling that it belongs as an adjunct to Eldar or Dark Eldar. However, being a huge fan of Harlequins, I'm still happy with it, because of how much was added.

Our group loves formations, and the way it equalizes suboptimal models with bonuses, rather than making the factions and models feel "same-y". Eldar, AdMech, Space Marines, Dark Angels and Necron are all on very close footing for us (nobody plays Daemonkin in our group, so I can't speak for it), and Harlequins are a worthy add-on to Eldar.

Taking faction and balance issues aside, I don't think 7e is inferior to 5e in terms of core rules at all.

If GW would finish off all the factions with the "Necron treatment", I think a lot of people would be a lot happier with the rules.

 Talys wrote:

Taking faction and balance issues aside, I don't think 7e is inferior to 5e in terms of core rules at all.

I think its an inferior set of rules for the games many people want to play. Competitive, pick up, game night kind of games.

 -Loki- wrote:
They used to do this at grand openings. One friend wanted to start a Khorne army so he showed up at the local GW's grand opening with 2 'buy 2 boxes, get one of equal or lesser value free' coupons and got 6 boxes of Berzerkers for the price of 4. Another friend grabbed 3 Eldar Battleforces for the price of 2. There was also the usual 20%, 30% off coupons and others.

The stores on these days were jam packed. It was basically a line out of the shop for a hundred meters or so, and all you could do was queue up and slowly trudge through and hand over your money. Went all day as people came later and jumped on the line. Games Workshop decided these sales devalued the product and stopped doing them.

That's how my mechanised Guard got started. Bought 6 Chimeras for the price of 4.

 Talys wrote:
I guess I look at GW products differently than you...

That much has been pretty clear since you showed up here. You view things through the lens of someone who seemingly has no money troubles whatsoever (£100 "impulse buys" and $5k "current projects"), so the problems that most of us suffer from when it comes to GW products in no way impact you (hence "Don't care. Got mine.").

That arrogance and, worse, indifference to how other people live is probably why so many people are coming up against you. Well, that and you keep moving the goalposts whenever someone shatters your arguments.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
They used to do this at grand openings. One friend wanted to start a Khorne army so he showed up at the local GW's grand opening with 2 'buy 2 boxes, get one of equal or lesser value free' coupons and got 6 boxes of Berzerkers for the price of 4. Another friend grabbed 3 Eldar Battleforces for the price of 2. There was also the usual 20%, 30% off coupons and others.

The stores on these days were jam packed. It was basically a line out of the shop for a hundred meters or so, and all you could do was queue up and slowly trudge through and hand over your money. Went all day as people came later and jumped on the line. Games Workshop decided these sales devalued the product and stopped doing them.

That's how my mechanised Guard got started. Bought 6 Chimeras for the price of 4.

 Talys wrote:
I guess I look at GW products differently than you...

That much has been pretty clear since you showed up here. You view things through the lens of someone who seemingly has no money troubles whatsoever (£100 "impulse buys" and $5k "current projects"), so the problems that most of us suffer from when it comes to GW products in no way impact you (hence "Don't care. Got mine.").

That arrogance and, worse, indifference to how other people live is probably why so many people are coming up against you. Well, that and you keep moving the goalposts whenever someone shatters your arguments.

Exactly, it's like he doesn't believe that there are those of us who do enjoy the hobby, yet we have to live paycheck to paycheck, I literally haven't personally bought anything NIB since April 2012, I've had to trade stuff in to the LGS to buy new kits (trade magic cards that I got for a steal for kits - paid $1 for a $25 rare, traded in for 12.50 credit, 1250% profit, stuff like that) I literally just now bought a box of Skullcrushers (that I plan to convert to 40K Bloodcrushers because I want my bloodcrushers to be Marines riding Juggys) and I only paid $32 for it because it was 50% off (The shop I went to was marking down stuff that had been sitting there for a while, 30% gaunts, 50% off Zombie dragon, 30% off 5th ed. SM Battleforce.) I wouldn't have purchased those crushers if they were full priced, and now i'm basically hunting for more discounted crushers because I don't want to pay $60 a box for 3 guys when I need like, 12...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I guess I look at GW products differently than you...

That much has been pretty clear since you showed up here. You view things through the lens of someone who seemingly has no money troubles whatsoever (£100 "impulse buys" and $5k "current projects"), so the problems that most of us suffer from when it comes to GW products in no way impact you (hence "Don't care. Got mine.").

That arrogance and, worse, indifference to how other people live is probably why so many people are coming up against you. Well, that and you keep moving the goalposts whenever someone shatters your arguments.

HBMC,

I wonder if you are this hostile to all people who have experienced more success in life than you. Your attacks are consistently highly personal, in a way that almost no other posts are. Moreover, your posts addressed to me are nearly universally devoid of meaningful thought or discussion.

Most everything that I have is self-earned, and I have had periods in my life when I had no money for any luxury goods, certainly not GW products and had to take out loans to pay for the necessities of life. Never did I feel animosity to GW, nor resented that I couldn't afford their next release (it's a game, not medical care or police assistance!). I've worked hard, and even in retirement, I probably work more hours than the average person. Yes, I have considerable disposable income, which I enjoy spending on hobby, and I am unapologetic about that.

As for your assertion that I am unable to comprehend other, younger or less fortunate people's perspectives, you could not be more wrong. It's just patently untrue. Should all people who can afford nice things hide in shame as they secretly enjoy things? Should I let that temper my enthusiasm for the next box of cool models? Why should I? I never felt entitled to such when I wore the other shoe. I feel neither resentful nor jealous of people who can afford things that I cannot that I would like. I think to do so is a pointless gesture, because no matter what your situation, there are always people more fortunate and people less so.

I certainly am not arrogant. I do not walk around going, "haha, I can buy this and you can't, sucks to be you", which is what you imply. But you are welcome to your perception of my posts, of course. Did you notice that I started a long, well-thought out and well-received thread on how to maximize a FLGS discount? I have received emails on how that actually worked for some people.

You post with such temporal hostility ('since you showed up here') that I feel that like you are afraid that I'll ruin your paradise of GW-bashing heaven. I find that pretty laughable. I do understand a lot of people don't like GW, and that this site is home to many. The day that a site owner or moderator tells me that a person who loves GW products and is passionate about painting, modelling, and gaming with them is not welcome to post that point or view here, I will never return, and you may have your anti-GW paradise back.

Until then, I will provide meaningful, thoughtful posts about something I really like, a perspective that is different than yours. It's also a point of view shared by some other people, perhaps a minority. Neither perspective is wrong; I respect, and even understand, yours. I hope that you would try to do the same. I am also happy to engage in Socratic debate and intelligent discourse. Snarky back and forth, not so much.

At a minimum, I hope that you can keep the personal attacks to a minimum: attack my positions, rather than my person. If you do the latter, the only one you diminish is yourself. I would also point out that your open hostility is a violation of Rule #1 (be polite). I will concede that in the past, I've responded to you in kind, and will not do so in future, regardless of what you post. Though, you may have noticed (or perhaps not) that I engaged you in a constructive, friendly way in another thread.

Good gaming to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Exactly, it's like he doesn't believe that there are those of us who do enjoy the hobby, yet we have to live paycheck to paycheck, I literally haven't personally bought anything NIB since April 2012, I've had to trade stuff in to the LGS to buy new kits (trade magic cards that I got for a steal for kits - paid $1 for a $25 rare, traded in for 12.50 credit, 1250% profit, stuff like that) I literally just now bought a box of Skullcrushers (that I plan to convert to 40K Bloodcrushers because I want my bloodcrushers to be Marines riding Juggys) and I only paid $32 for it because it was 50% off (The shop I went to was marking down stuff that had been sitting there for a while, 30% gaunts, 50% off Zombie dragon, 30% off 5th ed. SM Battleforce.) I wouldn't have purchased those crushers if they were full priced, and now i'm basically hunting for more discounted crushers because I don't want to pay $60 a box for 3 guys when I need like, 12...

PLHS, if I've written something that you find insensitive to your situation, or if I come off as snobbish, please PM me and tell me what it is, and I promise to give it thoughtful introspection. On the other hand, if you just don't like me and what I post because I generally like and support GW and express that, there's not much I can do.

Please keep in mind the context of these threads. For example, In DD, these basically come down to, "Why is GW still in business when their s*** is so expensive and their rules suck so bad?". I'm providing a *possible* explanation with context of my personal situation (and I add almost every time that I could be wrong). Would you prefer I simply didn't share that? If this forum is limited entirely to people who refuse to buy GW because it's too expensive or hate its ruleset, then there will never be an answer as to why they sell a lot of stuff, because obviously, everyone in the world doesn't share that view.

As I said, if the owners and operators of this site don't want GW fans here anymore, that's okay, too, and I can leave. I picked Dakka as my retirement forum home because there are lots of cool P&M posts and people's galleries (which contain a lot of GW product) are fun to look at. I like them all, including the work by first time painters and non-super-duper pro paintjobs. I like a front page that features stuff that isn't just competition-worthy.

With regards to HBMC's comment about me saying that a GBP100 could be an "impulse purchase", again, consider context: it was in a FORGE WORLD thread, for heaven's sake. The average vehicle kit there is *hundreds* of pounds. Buy almost anything and you hit GBP100. And it was in the context of free shipping going from GBP250 to GBP100, which is a huge drop.

With regards to my current project costing $5,000. It's a planned, *18-24 month project* that I've talked about here on Dakka in a zillion posts (and shared tons of photos of in my Gallery and in the P&M showcase -- 100+ in less than a year) that involves rebuilding a Blood Angels army -- that is, replacing every single model -- that hasn't been touched in nearly 15 years. It's something I've wanted to do for more than a decade, and never had the time for until recently. Notwithstanding that my hobby spending is a lot more than that, I'm certainly not going to feel embarrassed that I'm going to be painting up 200+ blood angels models to the best playable-model standard that I'm capable of, given time and model count constraints. Quite to the opposite: I'm proud of it. Frankly, the $5,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to what I value the time I'll have spent to paint them up (I'm going to guess 2,000 hours -- but it will probably end up being quite a bit more). Heck, if I worked minimum wage, for all those hours, I'd make multiples of that.

If you look at threads that don't basically boil down to "please explain why GW isn't bankrupt" -- for example in P&M or 40k, I speak *nothing* of subjects like these. Frankly, at the end of the day, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't really care about whether other people love or hate GW. I have my circle of 40k friends, I am not looking for more people to play with, and I'm happy for people who play other games that suit them better. I am very happy that the industry has games that fit all scales and genres. Mostly, I just happen to post something on one of these threads, and I can't let go, and keep on coming back to post more.

Talys, your continued notion that $5000 isn't a lot to spend on plastic figures is appalling at best, and mortifying at worst. And then having the gall to insinuate that you're the "average, normal GW customer" No, you're not the average customer, you're in that higher tier of people who can afford to drop $5K on a single purchase, and not blink an eye... $5000 is roughly *half* of my yearly salary (yeah, being poor sucks ass, it's nice I have a hobby I can retreat to when real life sucks - oh wait, my hobby has nearly doubled in price since I started...)
Yeah, when I started playing/modelling, Land Raiders were $50 a box, which is *completely fair* for that model. now they're $75+... Marines were $25 for a box of ten, now it's $45... And the quality hasn't really gone up, the marines back when I started playing look quite similar to the ones put out earlier this year. a few new bits, but still quite the same level of detail. $20 assault squads became $45... no real sense of justification other than "SHINY NEW BOX! NEW POSES!"
Yeah, and people wonder why I have a problem with the way GW treats its' customers... GW keeps getting greedy and raising their prices, Anyone remember when the Stormraven came out? $60, guess what it is now? $80+, and that model only came out 5 years ago... so it's price increased *faster* than that of the Land Raider.

GW needs to rewind their prices about 6 years to get them back to a fair price point.

This thread is pretty funny. Been reading it on my phone today, but too hard to post on mobile.

Plaguelord hobby services, do you provide, like, hobby services? As in commission stuff? If so, you should be happy that there are people who buy GW models, because they pay a lot for commissions. It costs me more than $1,000 to get a small WMH army painted.. no, not junk quality.. so I can only imagine what a 40k commission would cost. Ok feel free to flame me, last year, I probably paid $5,000 just to my commission guy. Around 40-50 models? Though there were a few jacks and 1 colossal. Plus most commission painters just charge more for painting 40k models. Another reason not to play 40k!

By the way if you make $10,000 a year, that's less than minimum wage. You shouldn't blame other people for that. Like... get a job... don't get a job... whatever, bro, but giving someone gak because they spend half your salary just make you look like you're flaming red with jealousy if you make less than the guy who lives in mom's basement and works at McDonalds.

But anyways sorry to hear. Hope you make more, coz put hobby aside, you still need to eat and live somewhere. Assuming your flag is right, not much places you can live in the US with that kind of wage.

Talys, you sound like a smart guy. But why the hell do you play 40k? Put the cost aside, it's a terrible game. But I think you win the award for most words posted. You write enough to fill a novel, man.

Come to WMH, you will like it better, I guarantee it. You can still paint your space marines for your hobby and have the best of both worlds, amirite?

MWHistorian... WORD. You nailed it.

Keezus, you are funny as gak.

H.B.M.C., dunno what to say dude, you just come off as a whiner. I'd say more but you don't, haha.

Marlov wrote:
This thread is pretty funny. Been reading it on my phone today, but too hard to post on mobile.

Plaguelord hobby services, do you provide, like, hobby services? As in commission stuff? If so, you should be happy that there are people who buy GW models, because they pay a lot for commissions. It costs me more than $1,000 to get a small WMH army painted.. no, not junk quality.. so I can only imagine what a 40k commission would cost. Ok feel free to flame me, last year, I probably paid $5,000 just to my commission guy. Around 40-50 models? Though there were a few jacks and 1 colossal. Plus most commission painters just charge more for painting 40k models. Another reason not to play 40k!

By the way if you make $10,000 a year, that's less than minimum wage. You shouldn't blame other people for that. Like... get a job... don't get a job... whatever, bro, but giving someone gak because they spend half your salary just make you look like you're flaming red with jealousy if you make less than the guy who lives in mom's basement and works at McDonalds.

But anyways sorry to hear. Hope you make more, coz put hobby aside, you still need to eat and live somewhere. Assuming your flag is right, not much places you can live in the US with that kind of wage.

I said "roughly" half, as in not directly half my annual salary, but pretty dang close to it. I'd have to starve myself for at least 5 months to net $5000 of takehome pay....

And I do more than just paint miniatures, I try not to charge people absurd amounts of money, If this were 2009, yes, i'd charge a bit more for my services, because the models were less expensive back then, now, they've nearly doubled in price for most, and had 30% increases across the board. Like, I literally saw a 5th edition SM battleforce today, and realized, it had nearly *double* the amount of models that the current SM battleforce has, for about the same base cost...
As for the other services I provide, one of them is altering Magic The Gathering cards for a profit. If i'm lucky, I can take a random card, charge cost of card +$15 for a regular border extension. However, I've been swamped with a 40K commission, so I haven't been able to do any Magic stuff.

@Plaguelord - Look, man, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I have never said, by the way, that $5,000 isn't a lot of money -- people commit heinous crimes for far less every day. It's many mortgage payments for lots of people. Food on the table for families. Fresh water or a school for a village in Africa for a long time.

But surely, you must realize that there are many people who paint up collections of GW models. Especially since you do this as a job.

So, I have no idea how you'd like me (or people like me) to be more sensitive to you. NOT share my hobby projects? >.< That sounds absurd on a site about hobby.

I'm not trying to flaunt my hobby purchases; I'm simply putting perspective on a thread about GW's ideal customer (not an average customer, as you say). And keep in mind, there are people who spend WAY more than I do on GW stuff. Right here on Dakka!

Also, I'm not trying to be offensive here, but if you make, whatever, about $12,000 a year (and I'm not saying that in a derogatory way!), it would seem to me that whether a land raider is $50 or $75... either would be a very large percentage of monthly disposable income.

Incidentally, Overpriced, unaffordable, and undesirable are three very different things. I think often, on this forum, some or all of these are conflated.

@Marlov - Sorry, man. I have tried WMH. Not my thing, though I own Cyrix, Menoth, and Retribution armies

You don't have to stop posting hobby stuff, not once did I ever say such a thing, all we're looking for is a little empathy, which, as it would seem from your "too bad, got mine" posts, is impossible to get from you. You continually denounce that prices for this game have gotten to the point of unaffordable entry for many newer gamers, who are all primarily school kids, college students, etc (at least in my area, this is the target demographic to pander to for long time sales, the 60 year old man probably isn't going to be around much longer, and barring medical problems, likely won't have much funds to spend on the hobby, but they don't spend nearly as much as the competitive crowd or the new blood)

New blood is what this hobby needs if it's going to survive, but when your company keeps pricing out the new blood into other games, and you keep putting the blame on your customers "You didn't buy enough, WE"RE RAISING PRICES!" you can't expect to stay afloat for much longer. This is the telltale sign of an incompetent company. IE unintelligent.

GW have been lucky to have remained afloat all these years, it doesn't take intelligence to be lucky, but it does take unintelligence to not take advantage of every possible avenue to make profit. Especially some really easy ones like lowering prices, offering sick deals (buy two get one free is a sweet deal) half off flash sale (1 hour only) is a great way to generate business. GW is also hindering itself by not conducting market research, "Market research is otiose", well, no, it's not, it's very much necessary for intelligent companies to remain profitable by building a relationship with their customers and making the customers feel wanted. Right now, I don't feel wanted as a customer by GW. They really don't care that their prices are absurd for the amount of material involved. They really don't care that the quality has stagnated and in some cases, lowered (i'm looking at the chaos range, it's lower quality now than it was in 3rd/4th edition, sure the Bloodletters are nice, but everything else sucks...) If they conducted a little research, it might help to dispel this unintelligent stigma that has surrounded them.

It's not unintelligent to segment the market and aim for particular segments. In fact most companies do that because no firm can address the entire possible market.

We as individuals might not be in GW's target market segments.

The question is whether GW have intelligently targetted the correct segments. The proof of that is their healthy sales.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not unintelligent to segment the market and aim for particular segments. In fact most companies do that because no firm can address the entire possible market.

I always thought GW did that with FW and the snap-fit starter sets. Now the snap-fits are expensive, where they exist, and for a lot of GW' customers, FW is the cheaper option (including some kits in the UK, but pretty much everything East of Europe).

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
You don't have to stop posting hobby stuff, not once did I ever say such a thing, all we're looking for is a little empathy, which, as it would seem from your "too bad, got mine" posts, is impossible to get from you. You continually denounce that prices for this game have gotten to the point of unaffordable entry for many newer gamers, who are all primarily school kids, college students, etc (at least in my area, this is the target demographic to pander to for long time sales, the 60 year old man probably isn't going to be around much longer, and barring medical problems, likely won't have much funds to spend on the hobby, but they don't spend nearly as much as the competitive crowd or the new blood)

I don't say this "too bad, got mine" thing that you speak of, though. I think HBMC started it when I was lamenting the great disparity between Australian prices and Canadian prices, I commented that I wasn't going to stop buying GW product because they seemingly overcharge Australians. Which is a TOTALLY unfair way to twist my comment, into "don't care, got mine" because I never said I didn't care (just that I wasn't going to stop buying GW product), and, evidently, a lot of Australians are buying GW products notwithstanding higher prices (so much so, that Australian sales actually grew when Europe fell, last year).

What HBMC wants is for me to be outraged at GW because Australians are being overcharged. And preferably not buy from them. But that's not going to happen, even though I *care* about Australians, and they have my sympathy, I don't apply that standard to every other product that Austrians are seemingly overcharged for -- from Xboxes to iPhones.

Look, I get that the hobby is expensive for a lot of people. I thought it was expensive when I was a kid and in high school. I barely bought GW models at all between college and several years after. And, I've posted (I think in THIS thread) problems about income gaps and a diminishing middle class and upper middle class, which I have always perceived as GW's sweet spot (including the children thereof). I get that a lot of people *wish* they could be involved in the hobby, but can't. I get that the slice of pie that GW can get out of potential customers is diminishing based on its pricing.

But that doesn't factually change that GW's price per model doesn't differ a lot from PP or Wyrd or Infinity's, or that Age of Sigmar isn't a lot more expensive to play than other games. It doesn't change that GW appears to favor its ideal customer, and that this *might* be a profit optimization formula -- or, it might be that they're serving people who are like minded with them, or it might be neither.

Is it unintelligent for GW to make its products unaffordable for a big chunk of people who look at their stuff and say, "gee, I'd love that"? The obvious answer is "yes", but that's not necessarily the correct answer. It might be heartless and cold, but the correct answer is that it's intelligent if it maximizes GW's profit, and it's unintelligent (or at least, less intelligent) if it does not.

@Talys.
We understand that some people have more disposable income than average.And some people like to collect and paint minatures, more than play games with them.

However, there are some people who have high amounts of disposable income , who buy cars just to own them .
And JUST look at, and sit in them in their massive garage of collected cars.
They NEVER drive them themselves, some do not even have a driving licence!

Now if you are a SUPER HIGH END LUXURY CAR MANUFACTURER .
That sell cars in the £200,000 to £2,000,000 price band.

You KNOW SOME prospective buyers will never drive your cars.
So would you think these companies intelligent if they did not bother developing the engine and drive train to make the driving experience as awesome as the look and feel of the luxury car when you sit in it?


I think the last time they did a break down of income , it showed the massive decreases in customers as retail prices rose across wage bands..

EG
30 of workers are on minimum wage.
30% of workers are between minimum wage and average wage.
25% of workers are between average wage and 1,5 times average wage.
10 % of worker are between 1,5 times average wage and 2 times average wage.
5% of workers are over double average wage.

So pricing for wage bands between minimum and average wages gets you 70% of available customers.(Where I am)
Pricing for just over average wage get you 40% of available customers.
Pricing for 1.5 to 2 times average wage gets you 15% of available customers.
Pricing for over double average wage gets you 5% of available customers.(Where you are I presume.)

So as GW plc raises its prices it is actually loosing customers at an accelerated rate due to 'wage band threshold crossing' .

I would put GW plc pricing as crossing the 1,5 times average wage threshold very soon.
So this means they have to nearly triple prices just to stay at constant revenue!
And when they get to over double average wage band pricing they will have to triple them again!

Just out of curiosity.What price would be too expensive for you Talys?
£100 per minature?
£500 per ,minature?
£1000 per minature?


If GW plc were right and there were enough collectors like you ,and they did not need 'average gamers' .
Then they would NOT have to keep raising prices and cutting costs and still loose revenue and profits.

If GW plc just kept pace with inflation from 1999, before the LoTR boom hit.
They should have a turn over of about £130 M.
Taking price rises into account and the increased game size , it should be closer to £170M

So IF GW plc had an annual turn over of £150M + and stable prices , I would admit they got it right and gamers were not a large proportion of their demographic.

But with falling sales volumes and profits , an ineffective retail chain, no market research , no effective marketing , and masses of ill will and negative views of GW plc corporate management.
I feel confident GW plc have got it very wrong.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not unintelligent to segment the market and aim for particular segments. In fact most companies do that because no firm can address the entire possible market.

We as individuals might not be in GW's target market segments.

The question is whether GW have intelligently targetted the correct segments. The proof of that is their healthy sales.

I don't think falling profits year after year is particularly healthy. Especially when other companies are very much growing. Infinity grew something like 80% in the last year, and 75% a for a couple of years on the trot before that.

@Lanrak -

Please keep in mind that I have said over and over again that if GW were my company, I would do things differently, because I personally believe that in the long term, the greatest profit is achieved by having :

1) a maximally inclusive customer base,
2) a growing customer base, and
3) as much goodwill as is reasonable

My position of "GW seems to be doing things that benefit ideal customers at the expense of alienating nearly all other customers" is an observation, not a preference. My position that this may maximize profits is a hypothesis, not a fact.

As a generality, in terms of pricing for models, I think that GW models, on a price per model basis, should be in the same pricing strata as PP, Wyrd, and CB Infinity models. I don't think they need to be cheaper, just because 40k is a game that has more models. I think most reasonable people can understand that a game that requires more models will cost more than a game that requires fewer models, and not be angry at GW for that.

Specific to myself, the question of "what price would be too expensive for a model" depends on so many things. How much do I love the model? How important is that model to my army/collection? What kind of model is it?

Personally, pricing is NOT inelastic for me. I probably won't buy the $28 Deathbringer (big axe guy next week) next week because I'm not a generally Chaos fan. But if he were half that price, $14, I wouldn't think twice. On the other hand, I bought every Sigmarite release, just because I really like them. So my point is price matters more for some minis than others.

Is there an absolute maximum? I just bought the FW Centurion at GBP 20 (I loved the model, and it's LE) so obviously it must be higher than that. Would I have bought him at GBP 100? No. I probably wouldn't even have *considered* him at GBP 50. But I have thought about some of the primarchs. A part of the equation is how much time will I spend on the model? If I'm going to spend 10 hours on the model, that's one thing. If I'm going to spend 100, 200, 300 hours on the model, that's quite another. I will spend more for a perfect model for me to turn into a really special masterpiece, and at that point, the price of the model is simply an investment in my time.

GW makes big models too, and if I wanted a Baneblade or an Imperial Knight, or Wraithknight, those prices seem fair to me. By that, I mean that relative to the number of parts, complexity, run size and number you'd have in an army, they seem like a reasonable price.

What about FW stuff, like a Sicaran, Reaver, or Thunderhawk? Yes, these are expensive models! But they are low run, boutique items. So I think the price is fair, too. After all, how many will they sell, ever? I don't own a Thunderhawk, but one day I might -- I think it's an awesome model. I'd certainly *think* about the price, but it would be more like the purchase of a digital camera or a good tablet, rather than like a model.

The whole thing about GW having annual turnover of GBP150m -- I think largely, it's irrelevant to whether people like or hate it. In 3 years, if GW somehow turns things around and has GBP 200m in sales, the people who hate it will still hate it. Because it will do so while still having products that are pricey, and rules that don't cater to the competitive crowd.

At the end of the day, no matter how much money it makes, you can't love a company if you're not it's target customer AND you think they're stuff is overpriced AND you think their game sucks, right? If anything, the more money they make, the more people will likely resent their success, because they're successful *in spite of* targeting a different segment., which I personally think is, in large part, why the, "why won't they die already?" sentiment that some people have.

Edit -- By the way, I personally think that while GW's direction is not an optimal one, a resentful attitude is also not healthy. To take your rich-person-car example, I think it would be really cool to have a garage showroom with all sorts of exotic cars. I can't afford this, but guess what... I am not the least bit jealous of the people who can, nor do I despise Maserati. Now, I get that GW has *moved out of affordability* for a lot of people, which is a different thing all together. But taking a sports example, I probably couldn't justify to myself spending the bucks to go to hockey games anymore (playoff tickets are a thousand bucks or more...), when they were very affordable in my youth. But I don't hate the NHL. Nor could I justify Superbowl tickets, but I don't resent those who snap them up for $20,000, when once they were a tiny fraction of that.

@Talys.
I was trying to show no matter what the hobby, there are people who buy a lot just because they like to own it.
And there are those that need more functionality , to get the value for money they want.

You seem like a genuinely nice person ,and I am happy you enjoy your hobby.

A intelligent company makes INFORMED decisions, based on market research and adopting best practices.To identify its core market and how to expand on it.

GW plc seems to follow the course of least effort for the corporate management, who do not have the skill set to grow GW plc as a business.
They make decisions, based on what they want to believe is true, to follow self serving motives.

Here is GW plc chairman preamble from eight years ago.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/chairmans-preamble-annual-report-2006-07/

Note how he said that GW corporate management had become fat and lazy on the back of easy success.
(They just made stuff and expected people to buy it.And when people stopped buying so much they just put up retail prices , and cut costs to compensate.)

And in the 8 years since the 'restructuring to focus on sales.'What have they done differently ?

Nothing , this is why people are frustrated with GW plc.And may be that why some have a bit of misplaced hostility?

Just because GW plc is run badly , only a smaller group of customers still buy GW product.Its NOT the fault of the customers still buying .

Blaming other people for the poor business decisions of GW plc is what GW plc do.We really should not join in!

A quality rule set that allows enough balance for random pick up game appeals to everyone.Adds value for the majority of average games, and does not prevent GW plc from releasing narrative campaign books to cover those wanting more wild and wonderful game set ups, when they have time to agree to this type of play.

To address the OP: "Why do you think GW Is somehow unintelligent?"

Because they waste millions of pounds revamping their website every couple of years and still somehow end up with something worse than the previous iteration.

Just logged on to GW.com to see if they still sell the Steel Legion infantry set (IIRC they brought it and other classic sets like Valhallans and Mordians back into production a couple years ago), and now the site is completely unrecognizable. It looks more like an Ipad app. They seem to have done away with all the old tabs (or more accurately, check box filters) and replaced them with just Price and A-Z filters. If you want to browse through the range of Imperial Guard, you have to browse through the ENTIRE range, You can't filter it by HQ, Elite, Troops etc.

At least the search function still works.

You poor, naive children. You actually believe that executives are interested in the overall well-being of the company that employs them. People who run businesses are trying to make money. That means personal money, not company profits. The company doesn't even have to earn a profit. Just skim off of the sales and pay yourself a big bonus every now and then. The shareholders will keep you because you're such a highly paid executive, because this is really how people in the corporate world think. If you don't skim off the top you're not a top-earning executive, so you'll probably get fired.
Meanwhile you need to keep marketing, not for the sake of customers but to impress the shareholders. The shareholders couldn't possibly understand the game, so all they want to see is cool toys and cool commercials for toys. They want new books coming out regardless of content and regardless of their impact on the gaming community. These guys at the top, their job is not to make a good game. Their job is to make stuff that looks like it will sell.

That's the answer to the thread's question in a nutshell. People think GW is dumb because they think smart people want to build successful companies. This isn't how business works in the real world. If you're smart, you'll often make more money by deliberately sinking your company. If you're smart you try to fill your pockets. Growing and sustaining the company means hard work and personal sacrifice, which are for dumb people. Smart people know how to be good parasites.

Marlov wrote:
This thread is pretty funny. Been reading it on my phone today, but too hard to post on mobile.

Oh look, another fresh-faced new user who just happened to show up in a thread with Talys. Happens a lot these days...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Marlov wrote:
This thread is pretty funny. Been reading it on my phone today, but too hard to post on mobile.

Oh look, another fresh-faced new user who just happened to show up in a thread with Talys. Happens a lot these days...

I have no idea what you could possibly be hinting at there...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The question is whether GW have intelligently targetted the correct segments. The proof of that is their healthy sales.

I believe that GW has targeted the correct segment. Guys like Talys are spending huge sums of money, where as the rest of us complainers are spending next to zero. I'm not sure whether the question is a matter of targeting - rather one of sustainability. Games have a critical mass. When they reach this critical mass - pickup games are easy to find, and word of mouth / player presence acts as a form of advertising. For the longest time, GW had a player base far above this critical mass. Now with their shift away from "gaming" to "collectables", the visible player base is down significantly of what it was during the 3rd Edition - 4th Edition days. In fact, in my neck of the woods, GW is well below critical mass in that you can not find players for pickup games at every store. Part of this is that customers have been priced out. Part is that customers wanting better rules have many alternatives. Part is that the demise of the retail stores / rogue trader network has shifted the die hard superfan base towards a more adeptus-basementus private-battle-bunker type setup... which is great for them... but not so great for growing the hobby.

We had a new guy come into our store looking for cool gak he and his wife could paint. She's primarily a painter, but the husband wanted value added in his purchases... i.e. usability game wise. If it was a matter of painting only... Age of Sigmar starter would have been awesome for them... (Seems shocking, but I did recommend it!!!). It turns out he'd played some demos, and read some reviews - the wonky rules are the issue that pushed him away from the GW system entirely. The price is a problem, but the bad word of mouth on the rules is increasingly a barrier to entry. The most visible veterans for GW (those that play other systems) are no longer the singular ambassadors for GW that they once were.

Sure... GW's targeting of the superfan is great for short term profits... but every customer they alienate as a result is going to shrink the customer pool, and increase word of mouth against the hobby - especially since the superfans have retreated away from the public scene (due to size of collections and lack of support).

Back on topic

I think one of the biggest bone head moves from GW over the years was to end the outriders. These where the guys and girls that helped build your local communities. All other companies have these volunteers that help grow your communities which in turn makes the company more money. A health community is good for the buisness.

 Chute82 wrote:

Back on topic

I think one of the biggest bone head moves from GW over the years was to end the outriders. These where the guys and girls that helped build your local communities. All other companies have these volunteers that help grow your communities which in turn makes the company more money. A health community is good for the buisness.

I'd argue that this makes more sense and is more "intelligent" than running their own, costly retail stores.

 agnosto wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:

Back on topic

I think one of the biggest bone head moves from GW over the years was to end the outriders. These where the guys and girls that helped build your local communities. All other companies have these volunteers that help grow your communities which in turn makes the company more money. A health community is good for the business.

I'd argue that this makes more sense and is more "intelligent" than running their own, costly retail stores.

Unfortunately, you are both right....

Getting rid of Outriders was a boneheaded move.

Maintaining their brick and mortar stores is even more so - at least in their current incarnation. (I think that GW stores could do very well by diversifying - seeking to become the FLGS instead of shoving them aside and trying to make an area GW only.)

The one man stores... are stupider yet.

The Auld Grump

Keezus, Chute82, and agnosto, all of your last posts have been exalted. It would seem the trademark of unintelligence of GW to abandon the LGS in favor of their limited and dismal retail outlets...

Almost like they forgot how they got started up in the first place... GW came first, making games systems, then, *after* a while, they absorbed Citadel Models into their range. Now, they've abandoned the game, and focused on the models... a really poor thing to do. Without the game, there isn't any added value to the models, which are *game pieces* meant to be played with (nothing is stopping you from displaying them, well, maybe space is, but still, they are game pieces)

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