GW and the Gaming Club Network

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**Looky Likey**

Pretty disgusted that GW didn't tell GCN directly about dropping the association between them after working together for such a long time.

**notprop**

I think you're too easily disgusted.

The problem here isn't GW but the GCN who need to sort their act out. They can't be that on the ball if they found out from a forum days after everyone else.

**Looky Likey**

So its up to the GCN to keep up to date on what GW are planning and not GW to keep the GCN up to date on what GW plan?

**notprop**

No but it does speak of the GCNs irrelevance and isolation that;

a) they've been dumped and no one felt the need to tell them.

b) it took days for them to find out, almost by accident it seems as someone pointed them to a forum. These guys are supposed to integral to UK gaming but seemingly don't have enough contact with it to know the same day as everyone else.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

If they've had major issues themselves it's not impossible that they were told they needed to do something by date X or loose their advertising privilages

and just lost the info in the transition between committee memebers

**Looky Likey**

You'll get no argument from me on the current state of the GCN, however it is highly unprofessional of GW not to tell the GCN that they have been dumped, even an email would have been better than not telling them and only taken five minutes of somebody's time.

**notprop**

Its possible they did, but in their current state GCNs left hand might not be talking to the right hand.

**Da Boss**

Very easy to see that happening with an amateur organisation (and I mean amateur in the non-insulting "we do this as volunteers" sense), especially if there has been bad blood. I've served on enough committees and so on to know about that sort of pettiness.

**HairySticks**

CRB checks are pretty much mandatory for anything working with children.
I dont expect anyones going to be covering the cost for you to get one at GCN, but if it were a school or something, the school covers it anyway.
They were round about £10 each time last time I had one.

Worst thing about them is theyre out of date the moment theyre printed. They only actually say about your criminal back ground (i.e the past) they need updating periodically.
You can get one online, or the forms down at he police station.

**Looky Likey**

notprop wrote:
Its possible they did, but in their current state GCNs left hand might not be talking to the right hand.

Yup, that's possible.

**vladvondrak**

update copied from facebook:
Good morning everyone, as you may or may not know on Saturday we had our most recent Council meeting where one of the topics was Games Workshop wanting GCN Members committees to go through DBS checks. We are currently making sure we have as much information about DBS checks and the GCNs obligations and shall be releasing a full statement shortly. If you have any questions feel free to let us know. Dan Carroll

**Strombones**

What is a CRB check?

Is it just a background check or something smore specific?

**HairySticks**

Criminal Record Bureau check.

Basically they dont like to just allow known criminals convicted of certain offences to work with the children. Its quite sensible really.. Im sure that USA would have it under another name.

Allthough, when paying for it one self.. it feels annoying to have to spend money to have someone compile a list of your (non existent) criminal record ~ if youve done things that would stop you getting these job then id be surprised if you were trying to?! maybe im being silly and giving people too much credit on that!

(it was only £10 for me the last time i had to, but still the principle remains) .

the downside to it all, is that it only actually protects from the people who were not very good at whatever it was they did and got caught. ... its an expense to good honest people to filter out already known offenders... the logic falls apart a little bit.

**vladvondrak**

update :-
The GCN and GW are discussing child protection matters arising from the demise of criminal record bureau checks and whether new disclosure and barring service [DBS] checks can replace them under the specific circumstances pertaining to the GCN and its member clubs. A summary of these matters and copies of current guidance regarding DBS checks can be found by following this links …………..
Memorandum of a meeting between The Gaming Club Network [GCN] Council and
Gareth Crosby of Games Workshop [GW] on Saturday 8th July 2015 to discuss
concerns from Games Workshop that Disclosure and Barring Service [DBS] reports
should be obtained by GCN officers and officials from its member clubs.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9h7AEz_WnzgVWNSQ3A5XzNnbUE/view?usp=sharing

A guide to eligibility for DBS checks
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9h7AEz_WnzgYkpqdmJUMlFfSk0/view?usp=sharing

Regulated Activity in relation to Children:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9h7AEz_WnzgWDhTWWQydkN6WUk/view?usp=sharing

Statutory guidance: Regulated Activity (children) – supervision of activity with children which is regulated activity when unsupervised
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9h7AEz_WnzgR1NvbzFDNkVGUUk/view?usp=sharing
more information will be coming out as and when we get it.
Please feel free to ask questions, if you have any.

**Charax**

TL;DR: GW want GCN to carry out DBS chacks with the same frequency and scope that they carried out CRB checks

GCN looked into it and don't believe the activities covered by the GCN and their member clubs are eligible to request DBS checks.

If the GCN is right, GWs request is unreasonable as it requires the GCN enforce a background check on members that it cannot legally request to occur.

None of which explains or excuses GW's insistence on removing al;l GCN advertising, or their not informing the GCN beforehand (and back when I was a member of a GCN club, we had a ton of members who were also GW staff, so how in hell nobody found out immediately is beyond me)

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

reds8n wrote:
Via FB

Hello everyone, we have a quick update for you all. Games Workshop have informed all of their managers to remove any and all GCN Club adverts from their stores and to not inform the clubs themselves. As we have found this out we have decided to keep you informed as to whats happening especially as we know there are some of our clubs who rely on the advertising Games Workshop have at times provided. If you have any questions let us know through here and we will do all we can to answer them

hmm .. most odd indeed.

Hope this is just a misunderstanding and something easily fixed or solved.

The GCN is a fine group of people who do a lot of good work.

Oh for feth's sake.

I was literally today considering sending a message to my local GW store (the next town over - a 20 min drive) on Facebook to ask if they'd tell their customers from my town about my Club, as we're quite small and struggling to grow. We've got a few people who play GW games (I play LOTR and 40K).

Guess I won't bother now.

**Art Steventon**

If it's finally happened, then it's the end of an inedible long and lingering death for the GCN.

When it first started, it had a reason - to work with the community team within GW to give customers confidence that clubs were run properly and safely to the same guidelines no matter where they were in the UK (there were abortive attempts to set up GCNs in other countries).

Around 2010 GW cut ties with the GCN for various reasons (non of which I can relate as last time I did, they - the GCN - threatened me with libel and defamation) and they went 'Indepenant' of any manufacturer - this itself caused many problems as the GCN became rudderless.

The committee was always the domain of three or four gaming clubs who then felt they could dictate to everyone else. The constitution at the time made it almost impossible for any other groups to break into the committee, and the opinions of clubs were ignored if they didn't follow the party line.

Throw in supposedly 'discounted' insurances which when clubs checked, was more expensive than going it alone, regional reps who weren't contacted for months on end and the shambolic AGMs it put more off than it attracted.

Some of this had started to change under the late chairman, who was a great chap and passionate about the hobby, but he was one man.

This isn't down to GW being in anyway in the wrong - the GCN has bitten the hand that fed it for many years...

**Strombones**

HairySticks wrote:
Criminal Record Bureau check.

Hmm ok I can't say we have the same. We certainly have background checks if (and only if) your employer wishes to do so, but I don't think they are mandatory if you are to work around children. Then again we have a national registry if you are a kiddie fiddler (awful term but one of my favorite British sayings next to gak Hawk).

I dunno. Sure Whembly and the more legally inclined like could shed light on it. I'm always interested in the legal procedures of other nations.

**vladvondrak**

Update on discussions between The Gaming Club Network (GCN) Council and Games Workshop and their representatives, regarding concerns from Games Workshop that Disclosure and Barring Service [DBS] reports should be obtained by GCN officers and officials from its member clubs.
To recap the situation, the senior management at Games Workshop have stated that for them to continue promoting GCN member clubs within their stores, all GCN member club committees must go through a Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) check or only accept members aged 18 and over. The GCN Council has been in discussion over this as well as reviewing relevant legislation and taking on board the concerns and comments of our membership. All of this combined with what we believe to be the removal of in store advertising leads the Council to recognise that requiring Club Committees to undergo the checks would be unworkable and potentially be illegal under current legislation
At this moment in time there will be no change in GCN policy and no Council member or Club Committee member will be required by the GCN to have a DBS check. Also the GCN will not be signing any contracts or agreements as requested by GW to this effect.
The GCN operates with a rigorous Child Protection Policy drawn up with all relevant legislation in mind and designed to provide the maximum protection for children and adults alike within our clubs. The GCN is committed to providing a safe environment for younger gamers and that is why we have a rigorous Child Protection Policy drawn up in line with current relevant legislation. The only updates or amendments that will be made to this policy are those demanded by changing legislation within our area of operations, not by any other outside interests.
A meeting is scheduled between representatives of the GCN and Games Workshop on 11th September 2015, where the above will be put to Games Workshop in pursuit of their agreement, as the GCN is committed to seeking every avenue of supporting our members
Dan Carroll

**reds8n**

http://www.gamingclubnetwork.net/news/2015/9/21/announcement-regarding-the-cessation-of-the-gaming-club-network-and-games-workshops-affiliation

Following an internal review, Games Workshop has expressed concern over the extent of the Child Protection Policy required by the GCN for its member clubs. In short, they believe it does not go far enough when compared to their own child protection policies.
Therefore in order to remain as an affiliate they have requested that the GCN do the following:

1: That all Council Members and Committee members of clubs be asked to undergo DBS checks.
2: That these should take place even within clubs that do not allow members under 18.
3: That the GCN sign an undertaking to do this.
4: If the GCN does not agree to the above, GW requested they instead change their
membership requirements to only accept clubs whose members are 18 and over.

The GCN has examined the request and refused on the following grounds:

1: That it would be illegal for the GCN to request its members to undergo DBS checks. For this reason alone it could not be voted on by the membership. This was even before administrative and legal costs were taken into consideration
2: That to sign undertakings of this nature would open both the Council members and Club Committee members to legal action.
3: In addition it was felt that the GCN has already has a stringent Child Protection Policy that equals and exceeds any of theequivalent hobby organisations including model railway and chess.
4: The GCN cannot agree to a restriction of the types of clubs that can become members as it is in opposition to the GCNs mission statement to support and encourage the activities andinterests of
Clubs and Individuals in the Gaming Community in the UK and to promote best practice within the Gaming Hobby and Community.

After a final meeting, both parties agreed to end their affiliation as neither was able to move from their positions as given above.
It was agreed that a joint statement, agreed by the GCN Council and GW Management would be issued to prevent any negativity from either side against the other.
A preliminary statement incorporating modifications as suggested by the full GCN council has been completed and will be presented to GW next week. Once GW has agreed to that statement, it will be formally presented for final approval by the GCN Council at a special meeting on the 10th October 2015.

If you have any questions or concerns please contact us either through this site or through one of our Facebook pages.

Dan Carroll

**notprop**

So they agreed to issue a joint statement but thought they would get this out there first.....okay?

**Azreal13**

This would be the GW child protection policies that allow for children to spend hours unsupervised in the company of a single adult, with potentially no outside observation?

Even assuming they conduct CRB/DBS checks, that's an awful lot of faith in a system that only highlights offenders that have been caught.

**vladvondrak**

Good morning everyone, the link below is to the official announcement regarding the outcome of discussions between The Gaming Club Network and GW. As mentioned in the article a joint statement between both bodies is being prepared as neither side wishes to promote negativity towards the other.
If you have any questions on this please don’t hesitate to ask and as always we will answer them as quickly, honestly and clearly as we can. Dan Carrol
http://www.gamingclubnetwork.net/news/2015/9/21/announcement-regarding-the-cessation-of-the-gaming-club-network-and-games-workshops-affiliation

**Talys**

Maybe we could kill the other thread on the same topic?

**Adam LongWalker**

Don't post much due to illness. De-vested with Game Workshop a few years back. I don't deal with retards in ties very well. My take on this....

It is about GW's control of their eroding customer base. That is what I first thought about when I heard the situation from GCN. Pretty much politically correct verbage on both sides.

Then this was posted on another topic about the same situation.

adlard.matthew wrote:
GW seem to being showing a wary concept of what they offer and do with killing Slannesh and mainly offering male figures so not to offend female complaints and according to someone in store the religious/moral types who see sex in everything. They are aiming to target younger gamers.

From what was said on another post on FB GW also wanted members to be checked, and other strict polices under new DBS, yet this also means that the person being checked has to decide whether to disclose or fill inform, and different levels. For a club it would mean every member paying a fair amount for checks. And it is not for a job so technically not applicable. And at £55-75 a tim would cut into costs and kill many clubs, which for many are over 18 as in Pubs and or just operate as over 18 for proffered choice, and so do not eed them but would be required to have to take them.

However, picked up from a source that GW has given go ahead for GW employees to begin setting up clubs outside of GW stores, using ex GW stock & GW support. However they are only to support and encourage GW games, and make policy that supports only GW games.

If true and it starts being pushed out would explain the sudden shift and a neat way to cut ties with GCN.

It is always about control of additional revenue resources. AS WELL AS additional tax write off if these "clubs" gets any support from Games Workshop.

This is always be the case with Games Workshop. Burning the Bridges to make that dividend for good o' Kirby.

**Vermis**

HairySticks wrote:CRB checks are pretty much mandatory for anything working with children.
I dont expect anyones going to be covering the cost for you to get one at GCN, but if it were a school or something, the school covers it anyway.
They were round about £10 each time last time I had one.

£30 when I got one last year, IIRC. A quick google shows £26 for standard, £44 for advanced.

I can imagine why clubs and members would be even more disinclined to go through the process, especially 16-18+ only clubs.

**Noir**

Strombones wrote:
HairySticks wrote:
Criminal Record Bureau check.

Hmm ok I can't say we have the same. We certainly have background checks if (and only if) your employer wishes to do so, but I don't think they are mandatory if you are to work around children. Then again we have a national registry if you are a kiddie fiddler (awful term but one of my favorite British sayings next to gak Hawk).

I dunno. Sure Whembly and the more legally inclined like could shed light on it. I'm always interested in the legal procedures of other nations.

As someone who works with kids, yes you do need a background check. And yes like the UK it needs to be done for each job you work with childern .

**RoninXiC**

The UK is quite crazy when it comes to "child safety". No other country in the EU or the western world has such strict rules that actually do nothing.

**RiTides**

Yeah, that was how it struck me too, Ronin - for most of the thread I couldn't tell what any of this was about (bless the UK poster who finally defined what in the world "CRB" meant). But it seems like an awful lot of red tape to not accomplish very much in the end.

**krazynadechukr**

Not sure why all the hate towards GW... (in this case)...

From GCN

"Games Workshop has expressed concern over the extent of the Child Protection Policy required by the GCN for its member clubs.........to remain as an affiliate they have requested that the GCN do the following........1.) Council Members and Committee members of clubs be asked to undergo DBS checks (sexual offender lookup)......."

You know, just make sure all these group and clubs don't have child rapists leading their kiddy game groups.

(that was just the 1st of 4 requirements....)

GCN's response

"it would be illegal for the GCN to request its members to undergo DBS "

Not illegal, actually REQUIRED!

"For individuals working in certain positions with or around children, a valid DBS disclosure is a legislative requirement."

https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview

It's free for unpaid/voluntary/clubs....

As soon s I read that from them, red flags went up for me (as a parent)