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Best save does not include rerolls.
Keep houseruling all you want. Its not RAW.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine.

Except one is mentioned in the rules and the other is not.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you to support your position.

This. The proof of "best" has been given (the most " better") so to disprove it another rule must be given. Not conjecture.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine.

Except one is mentioned in the rules and the other is not.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you to support your position.

This. The proof of "best" has been given (the most " better") so to disprove it another rule must be given. Not conjecture.

Best save being a 3+

yeah except the ''rule'' states the model has the ''advantage'' of taking the best possible save. its does not state a requirement. so it is to my advantage to take the 4+ re-rollable. I do not accept the ''example'' in the case of the 3+ being lower and therefore being better as a legit rule, it is an example and that is all.

From 'Models with More than One Save' in the Shooting Phase section of the rulebook:

... a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

Please, where does it say that it has the advantage of "... choosing which of its saves to use..."?

 Cheebs wrote:
yeah except the ''rule'' states the model has the ''advantage'' of taking the best possible save. its does not state a requirement. so it is to my advantage to take the 4+ re-rollable. I do not accept the ''example'' in the case of the 3+ being lower and therefore being better as a legit rule, it is an example and that is all.

So why are you breaking rule, by choosing something other than the save which is better? Do you have some other defining of best that you can actually cute, or will you continue to break the tenets?

The rules say the model will use the best save available. Its the very next line about the model having the advantage of the best save. Taken to a pure raw extreme that means a model must use the best save available. The rules also define a 4+ save as better then a 5+ save. However, the rules do no address the notion that 4+ re-rollable save could be better then a 3+ save. Because of this, there is no RAW argument to discount the idea that a 4+ re-rollable is better then a 3+ straight up save.

TLDR: you always take the best save, but when saves get complicated best can be subjective.

The reroll is not the save, the 3+ or 4+ is the save. The reroll modifies the 4+, but only if you fail. Therefore the 3+ is the best save since lower is better. Rerolling doesn't change that.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The rules say the model will use the best save available. Its the very next line about the model having the advantage of the best save. Taken to a pure raw extreme that means a model must use the best save available. The rules also define a 4+ save as better then a 5+ save. However, the rules do no address the notion that 4+ re-rollable save could be better then a 3+ save. Because of this, there is no RAW argument to discount the idea that a 4+ re-rollable is better then a 3+ straight up save.

TLDR: you always take the best save, but when saves get complicated best can be subjective.

The rules give one definition of better, which necessarily defines best. Why are you claiming permission to consider any other definition of "better" when you have no rules support?

In terms of RAW, a lower save being better is only defined for armour saves I.e. a lower armour save is better than a higher armour save. However the game mechanics dictate that a lower armour save is also better than a higher cover save even though this isn't explicitly stated. So in this instance the better save is still the 3+ armour save. You can't factor in the reroll on the jink save as this isn't changing the actual save value to make it numerically better than the armour save.

Don't they have skilled rider, so wouldn't it be a 3+ anyway?

 Anglacon wrote:
Don't they have skilled rider, so wouldn't it be a 3+ anyway?

Only Black Knights have Skilled Rider. Regular RW bikers do not.

Pure RAW - if both players HONESTLY believe for different saves to be the best - then rolloff.

Honestly I think only 'that guy' would force a rolloff on this.

 Deathypoo wrote:

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

pretty much this. I appreciate there's a strict RAW argument to be made, and that is what this subforum is for so keep going, but I don't think any reasonable player would hold to that.

Rerolls do not matter when determining the best save, they are outside factors with no bearing on determing best save.

Best save is the best numerical value available to you. The book example is clear. Stop trying to find loopholes to cheat

Yeah in the OPs example the 3+ armour save is a better save by RAW than the 4+ reroll jink save. HIWPI I'd probably let someone take the jink save in a friendly game if they wanted though.

Sorry I haven't seen the RaW for why a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover? I can see RaW a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ armour. What rules are people using to work out what is a better cover or invun save?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry I haven't seen the RaW for why a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover? I can see RaW a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ armour. What rules are people using to work out what is a better cover or invun save?

You always use your best save. The example in the book uses a Cover Save and an Armor save, if I remember right.

The question is does the BRB give an example of having to take a flat save with a lower number value (3+) over a slightly higher save that's rerollable (4+ rerollable). By the math a 4+ rerollable has a higher chance to make the save than a 3+ non rerollable save. No where in the rules can I find that it classifies the exact criteria for what is better. The example it showed has a 4+ cover vs a 5+ cover and its 100% true that the 4+ cover is the better save. The rules says best save and not the lowest save so I think RAW could should go in favor of the save that has the highest % chance to succeed.4+ rerollable has the higher chance and thus best when compared to 3+ with no reroll.

Please note I do not play an army where this is an issue for me but I just don't see the argument for why 4+ rerollable can't be taken over 3+ flat.

 Vankraken wrote:
The question is does the BRB give an example of having to take a flat save with a lower number value (3+) over a slightly higher save that's rerollable (4+ rerollable). By the math a 4+ rerollable has a higher chance to make the save than a 3+ non rerollable save. No where in the rules can I find that it classifies the exact criteria for what is better. The example it showed has a 4+ cover vs a 5+ cover and its 100% true that the 4+ cover is the better save. The rules says best save and not the lowest save so I think RAW could should go in favor of the save that has the highest % chance to succeed.4+ rerollable has the higher chance and thus best when compared to 3+ with no reroll.

Please note I do not play an army where this is an issue for me but I just don't see the argument for why 4+ rerollable can't be taken over 3+ flat.

Because the rules for saves do not account for rerolls anywhere. any rules that allows a player to reroll failed saves requires you to roll your save before it comes into effect.

before you fail a roll (like when choosing which save to use) you do not have permission to reroll the save, because you have not failed it yet

The re-roll isn't the save. It's a chance to re-roll a failed save. If you make the +4 save, then you don't have a re-roll.

It's still a +4 save; it just has the added bonus that you can re-roll it if you fail it.

So therefore it's a choice between a +3 save and a +4 save, with the +3 being the better of the two.

There is no ambiguity in there other than what people are bringing with them.

JinxDragon wrote:
I also have to wonder if an example is the best thing to be pointing to in a Rule debate.
Examples are often just one of many possibilities....

Examples used are chosen specifically because they define what and when things happens and more importantly which things DON'T happen.

This is the classic example of people arguing over a rule trying to bend it as hard as they can when both RAW and RAI are clear.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sorry I haven't seen the RaW for why a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ cover? I can see RaW a 3+ armour is better than a 4+ armour. What rules are people using to work out what is a better cover or invun save?

You always use your best save. The example in the book uses a Cover Save and an Armor save, if I remember right.

Nope it compares 2 cover saves.

Youre told what a better save means, using the example of an armour save
You are told, when you have multiple saves, to take the better save

Putting the two together gives the rule that, when you have 2 or more saves, you must take the better (best) one of them.

there is no rule allowing you to consider, at any point, a reroll

I'm going to want a quote for the first part Nos. I can't find it.

Be precise. First sentence? first word? first Paragraph?

the rule for better save has been quoted often.

Yes the rule that says all saves that are lower are better.

You are told it is true for armour saves. You are then told how cover saves fdiffer from armour, similarly for invulnerable

Are you told to ignore the rule telling you how the save is beter? are you told this is one of the ways that cover and invulnerable saves are different?

If so, please post it.

I see page 8 which explicitly is only talking about Armour saves. Where do we find out this applies to all saves?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to want a quote for:

"You are then told how cover saves differ from armour, similarly for invulnerable"

Question:

If I have a 3+ armor save and a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save, which is the "best" save?