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The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Agreed

So which is better, a 2+ or re-rollable 3+?

Rerollable 3+ why?

 Happyjew wrote:
So which is better, a 2+ or re-rollable 3+?

Let me ask you a question: which is better? a 2+ save or a re-rollable 2+ save?

Nevermind. I was thinking the wording in the rulebook was something along the lines of "No save can be better than 2+."

Forget this line of inquiry.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

That paragraph doesn't say the lower the number the better the save. It says a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ cover and goes into no detail as to why. You could say 4+ is better because it is lower or you could say 4+ is better as it has a higher chance of success. The rules don't tell us how to compare saves other than armour saves. This does not mean a bigger number is better, it leaves us to figure out what better is and the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best.

it sounds like the argument against taking the rerollable hinges on the BRB redefining the word "better".

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

That paragraph doesn't say the lower the number the better the save. It says a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ cover and goes into no detail as to why. You could say 4+ is better because it is lower or you could say 4+ is better as it has a higher chance of success. The rules don't tell us how to compare saves other than armour saves. This does not mean a bigger number is better, it leaves us to figure out what better is and the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best.

I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

Fling - the rules define how you take an at our save. Explain how, without reference to the armour saves section, you take a cover save.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The invun. Simples. You may not choose to take the armour save.

I agree. And for the same reason the player is required to take the 4+ re-rollable save over the straight 3+. Any modifiers to the save factor into the determination of which one is "best".

Rules citation please. The actual rules give no such indication that you can consider anything other than the numeric value.

Rules citation that the lower save is better for anything other than for armour saves.

Page 38, 2nd paragraph under "Models with more than one save".

Secondly if this wasn't in the book, by your logic a model with a 2+ armor and a 4+ invulnerable and a 6+ cover would have to take the cover save. "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always taking the best one." but since only armor is better if lower, that 4+ invulnerable is better than the 2+ armor and the 6+ cover is even better than that.

That paragraph doesn't say the lower the number the better the save. It says a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ cover and goes into no detail as to why. You could say 4+ is better because it is lower or you could say 4+ is better as it has a higher chance of success. The rules don't tell us how to compare saves other than armour saves. This does not mean a bigger number is better, it leaves us to figure out what better is and the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best.

I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

None exists. No RaW exists for determining which save is better except in the case of armour saves. Though as Nid points out no RaW exists on how cover and invulnerable saves even work.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

None exists. No RaW exists for determining which save is better except in the case of armour saves. Though as Nid points out no RaW exists on how cover and invulnerable saves even work.

What about page 38?

If a model can benefit from different types of cover, for example, being behind a barricade (4+ cover save) that is also within a Citadel Wood (5+ cover save), the model uses the best cover save available (in this case 4+).

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
I want a rules quote for "the only reasonable measure is chance of success as a save exists to to prevent a wound therefore the one most likely to achieve this result is the best."

None exists. No RaW exists for determining which save is better except in the case of armour saves. Though as Nid points out no RaW exists on how cover and invulnerable saves even work.

What about page 38?

If a model can benefit from different types of cover, for example, being behind a barricade (4+ cover save) that is also within a Citadel Wood (5+ cover save), the model uses the best cover save available (in this case 4+).

Already asked and answered. But once again yes that tells us a 4+ is better than a 5+. It doesn't tell us why a 4+ is better than a 5+. It doesn't tell us whether a 3+ is better than a 4+ or whether a 6+ is worse or how rerolls effect what is better.

col_impact wrote:
Question:

If I have a 3+ armor save and a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save, which is the "best" save?

Obviously the Invuln as it covers any ap3 and better weapons.

A better question would be vs ap - weapons what is the better save? A 3+ armor save or a 3+ Invul?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The BRB covers saves in various forms extensively. What it doesn't include in those articles are the special ability to "reroll"

A cover save is a cover save, an armor save is an armor save and rerolling either is a special ability.

"Better" RAI and RAW is defined in a numerical sense. Not in the sense of value.

Lets examine this angle:
A Black Knight being shot at by an AP4 weapon. The model can get a 3+ Armor save or jink for 3+ re-rollable cover save.

Now apparently the BRB doesn't give precedent to allow the reroll to factor into determining "best/better."
You tell a tourney player that he/she might not get to use his re-rollable jink...see how that goes over.

This dex needs a FAQ.

This all seems like a storm in a teacup, to be honest.

The rules currently don't require you to use the best save. They just state that you have the advantage of doing so.

That's a vague enough statement, combined with the lack of any specific definition of how we should determine th e'best' save, for me to conclude that it's ultimately up to the player which save they use. Just pick one, roll your save, and move on.

Forcing players to compare the statistical probability of a straight roll versus a re-roll at a different value, or to take a technically worse save because you choose to impose a narrow definition of a poorly-defined rule?

Either of those paths lead to madness.

 insaniak wrote:
The rules currently don't require you to use the best save. They just state that you have the advantage of doing so.

I disagree with this statement. The rule states that the advantage of having more than one save is "... always using the best save available..." Always, not when you choose to.

It amounts to the same thing, particularly when they don't give you a precise way of determining which save is the 'best'.


The rule is vague. Enforcing any sort of RAW on this is going to meet with resistance, and it's ultimately such a miniscule issue.

In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

Try not to quote half a sentence, particularly when the section removed is the part actually being addressed.
I will now return to just reading the thread, as I have no interest in actually taking part in this one....

*goes and gets more popcorn*

On another note. I feel like the term "advantage to take" and "best' are keys here.

If you have a deamon prince, with a rerollable 5++, but also jinked for a 4+++ which would you take? I'd take the rerollable.

Advantage is a term that directly is meant to benefit the one having the ADVANTAGE. The term best, by all accounts, is defining the save MOST LIKELY TO BE MADE.

It says a 2+ is better than a 3+. And this is true. However , a 3+ re-roll is better than a 2+. I have the ADVANTAGE of using the BEST save to ignore the wound. Are you arguing this?

Yes, because the rules define the lower numeric value as being the better one. Please explain where you have a rule allowing you to consider rerolls, or a rule redefining better for a second time (the first time being when they define better as lower)

Page and graph please.

JinxDragon wrote:
In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

Try not to quote half a sentence, particularly when the section removed is the part actually being addressed.
I will now return to just reading the thread, as I have no interest in actually taking part in this one....

Very much this!

Let's not forget that Dark Angels bikes have Skilled rider.... so they have a 3+ rerollable.

Only the Black Knights have Skilled Rider I believe.

Indeed, just the black Knights.

It's pretty easy if you understand that the ravenwing special rule allows to reroll a failed safe, not magically change the initial jink save.

So a 3+ save IS better than a 4+ save. Even if you can reroll that save if it fails, it stays a 4+ save.

BUT:

JinxDragon wrote:
In these cases, a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.
- Models With More Than One Save

^This sentence is just meant to clarify, that you can't take all your saves. In no way does it tell you to use the best save but rather points out what the advantage of having more than one save is.
So even if 3+ is better than 4+, you still can choose to take the 4+ because of the reroll.

I used to take the 3+ until I understood, that there is no rule that forces me to take a worse save to my advantage.