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Pimpin' Billl is bad, but he has the truth about the emperor and his imperial cult.

This thread has made me see how few non-sm humans there is in the 40k universe.

Hierophant wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 BattulBruvaCat wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Doombreed's original identity is a matter of much conjecture, with circumstantial arguments to support multiple candidates..

Man, it's Genghis Khan, how many other people killed so much other people to cause climate change and were honourable doing it?

What.

Doombreed is theorised to be Ghengis Khan in the fluff, and Ghengis Khan is theorised (in real life) to have killed so many people, that it had a measurable effect on the climate.

How so? He depopulated so many areas to such a degree that it allowed globally significant areas of forest to regrow, because there no longer existed the manpower to clear them for agriculture.

Was he honourable in his killing? I disagree. Giving someone a choice between slavery and death isn't really honourable in my book, especially when his wars were unprovoked. He killed for money and power.

That said, he as a historical figure, he arguably isn't as evil as others, simply because (like members of the Imperium) he was doing this to advance his people, so there's an element of altruism there, no matter how selective. It's not much different than the Emperor and his Crusade, except trading Xenos for non-Mongols.

I meant he was honourable by Khorne standards, so...

Also, there are lot's of non SM humans in Wh40k fluff, they just tend to not be evil, just doing what they need to do.

Really, Marine characters should be excluded from this thread, since they're not really human any more.

I would have to say that the most evil human character in the fluff would have to be Goge Vandire.

He didn't do it for Chaos. He didn't do it to propagate his people. He didn't do it because he thought he was the best man for the job.

Vandire drove the entire Imperium into the ground. He destroyed the Imperium's economy. He destroyed the peoples' Faith in the ecclesiarchy. He schemed and murdered his way to the post of High Lord of the Administratum because he wanted personal power. He then betrayed and murdered his way into the post of High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy.

He used honest peoples' faith to turn them into pleasure slaves. He raped planets and altarboys (and girls) alike.

So depraved was he that he forced loyalist Space Marines to lay siege to Terra.

He persecuted Imperial Saints. He profaned the Emperor. He is single-handedly responsible for the complete destruction of the Church of the Saviour Emperor and the resurrection of the declared heretical cult known as the Convocation of Light. The Convocation that now rules the Imperium as the Holy Ecclesiarchy.

The most evil human character in 40k (well, 36k), people: Goge Vandire.

Arguably, he's more evil than the nonhuman Space Marines already listed, too.

I find it dubious that his evil matches that of, say, Bile.

Vandire's 'feats of evil' are great because he had so much power. But if he wasn't such a high ranked man, his evil wouldn't be notable.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Really, Marine characters should be excluded from this thread, since they're not really human any more.

I would have to say that the most evil human character in the fluff would have to be Goge Vandire.

He didn't do it for Chaos. He didn't do it to propagate his people. He didn't do it because he thought he was the best man for the job.

Vandire drove the entire Imperium into the ground. He destroyed the Imperium's economy. He destroyed the peoples' Faith in the ecclesiarchy. He schemed and murdered his way to the post of High Lord of the Administratum because he wanted personal power. He then betrayed and murdered his way into the post of High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy.

He used honest peoples' faith to turn them into pleasure slaves. He raped planets and altarboys (and girls) alike.

So depraved was he that he forced loyalist Space Marines to lay siege to Terra.

He persecuted Imperial Saints. He profaned the Emperor. He is single-handedly responsible for the complete destruction of the Church of the Saviour Emperor and the resurrection of the declared heretical cult known as the Convocation of Light. The Convocation that now rules the Imperium as the Holy Ecclesiarchy.

The most evil human character in 40k (well, 36k), people: Goge Vandire.

Arguably, he's more evil than the nonhuman Space Marines already listed, too.

What the feth. Where can I read about this charming individual?

There is a good argument there. Vandire was (politically) the most powerful human who ever existed, bar the Emperor, so his ability to do evil was greater than virtualy anyone else who ever existed.

However, you put Horus, Abaddon, Erebus, Lorgar, Bile, Doombreed, or any number of other Chaos-affliliated humans into the same position, and they would make him look like a boy scout.

Even if the question was revised to ask who did the most damage, rather than who had the most evil intent, then the Horus Heresy caused more damage to the Imperium, making Horus and/or Erebus more evil by that metric.

If we use the weakest definition of evil, explicitly anything not good, we can count literally anyone in the Imperium. Lets use the worst definition, an evil that is senseless or does harm for pleasure.

This means that most of the Chaos SM chapters are out, since they either did it for freedom, temptation to a baser need (implying they reverted to beast mindsets), or simple "I wuz following orders, man".

True evil doesn't need a reason. True evil is the man that skins puppies to have a fur coat, then never use it. True evil is the man who shoots another to watch him die. True evil is he who doesn't care about power or wealth beyond their ability to afford him more ways to do evil.

So, who's the evillest in this little beauty pageant now?

Probably the Daemons.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Probably the Daemons.

Please read the title, kthanx

 Harriticus wrote:
Konrad Curze

This is interesting, definitely want to hear this explanation. As far as I've ever heard, he was the most repentant of the traitor Primarchs, and though ruthless, purged his homeworld of crime and became Space Batman.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Konrad Curze

This is interesting, definitely want to hear this explanation. As far as I've ever heard, he was the most repentant of the traitor Primarchs, and though ruthless, purged his homeworld of crime and became Space Batman.

The whole "we must commit genocide, do insane torturing, and be edgelords just to show daddy he's wrong!" part, I guess.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Konrad Curze

This is interesting, definitely want to hear this explanation. As far as I've ever heard, he was the most repentant of the traitor Primarchs, and though ruthless, purged his homeworld of crime and became Space Batman.

The whole "we must commit genocide, do insane torturing, and be edgelords just to show daddy he's wrong!" part, I guess.

You described pretty much every traitor ever.

If we are excluding Traitor Marines and the like then, yes, Vandire is definitely high on the list. Nothing supernatural or Chaos-influenced about him, he was just a power-mad despot who tricked uncounted millions, and offed those who dared to question him.

I'm personally not excluding Traitor Marines - I just think some of them have excuses for their behaviour, albiet extremely weak, that although makes them evil to a degree, precludes them from being the evilest.

That said, there's plenty of Traitors who are just in it for the ability to do evil. Erebus is one. Fabius Bile is likely another. But there's also characters like Ahriman who are a bit more nuanced in their motivations and excuses for falling to Chaos.

There we go. Mindless psychos like Erebus and Typhus. These guys wanted to kill before Chaos corrupted them. Chaos simply offered them a way to carry out said impulses in a more efficient manner.

So, maybe we should come up with 5 or 6 dudes and make a poll?

I'll make a quick poll then!

Link us to the poll if you make a new thread, m8

I've edited the OP, so the poll is here.

Ashiraya wrote:I find it dubious that his evil matches that of, say, Bile.

Vandire's 'feats of evil' are great because he had so much power. But if he wasn't such a high ranked man, his evil wouldn't be notable.

On the contrary, the thing about Vandire is that his evil would be evil even if he was the poorest tramp in the underhive. His power enabled him, but all of his acts, all of the vile things he did, were purely because thats what he wanted to do. He had no ulterior motives. He had no grand plan other than to indulge his own desires.

He was the most evil not because he was evil and powerful, but because his evil was pure.

My issue with naming Vandire though, is that even if his evil was pure, it was also relatively restrained. He had virtually the galaxy at his fingertips, and what did he do? Engage in sexual deviancy, murder, and genocide. No different than a 20th century tinpot dictator, but just writ large.

Compare him to someone like Abaddon, who if he had the same power, would likely cause the extinction of humanity. Or Bile, who'd liquidate the populations of entire sectors purely for the raw materials for genetic experiments. Just look at the state of planets under Chaos control.

Vandire was evil, but his evil was relatively mundane, and restrained to his immediate appetites. Whereas others on the list have far more terrible and grand plans for the innocent people of the Imperium.

Vandire is responsible for the church of the emperor to fall, and the current sorry state of the IoM as a oppressive regime. He ruined the emperors vision more fully than Horus ever could.

Hierophant wrote:
My issue with naming Vandire though, is that even if his evil was pure, it was also relatively restrained. He had virtually the galaxy at his fingertips, and what did he do? Engage in sexual deviancy, murder, and genocide. No different than a 20th century tinpot dictator, but just writ large.

Compare him to someone like Abaddon, who if he had the same power, would likely cause the extinction of humanity. Or Bile, who'd liquidate the populations of entire sectors purely for the raw materials for genetic experiments. Just look at the state of planets under Chaos control.

Vandire was evil, but his evil was relatively mundane, and restrained to his immediate appetites. Whereas others on the list have far more terrible and grand plans for the innocent people of the Imperium.

That is what makes it so terrible. In the very mundanity of his evil, he brought the Imperium to its knees, crippled its capabilities, and eventually caused an army of people, largely regular, every day Joes but Space Marines as well, to lay seige to Terra. If it wasn't for Sebastian Thor that would have been the end of the Ecclesiarchy, and thus the Imperium, right then and there.

I absolutely agree with the majority here. Erebus was the one who corrupted Horus' mind.

How was Typhoon even voted for?? I wonder if they read the books...

 Psienesis wrote:

Hierophant wrote:
My issue with naming Vandire though, is that even if his evil was pure, it was also relatively restrained. He had virtually the galaxy at his fingertips, and what did he do? Engage in sexual deviancy, murder, and genocide. No different than a 20th century tinpot dictator, but just writ large.

Compare him to someone like Abaddon, who if he had the same power, would likely cause the extinction of humanity. Or Bile, who'd liquidate the populations of entire sectors purely for the raw materials for genetic experiments. Just look at the state of planets under Chaos control.

Vandire was evil, but his evil was relatively mundane, and restrained to his immediate appetites. Whereas others on the list have far more terrible and grand plans for the innocent people of the Imperium.

That is what makes it so terrible. In the very mundanity of his evil, he brought the Imperium to its knees, crippled its capabilities, and eventually caused an army of people, largely regular, every day Joes but Space Marines as well, to lay seige to Terra. If it wasn't for Sebastian Thor that would have been the end of the Ecclesiarchy, and thus the Imperium, right then and there.

Haha! No. The Imperium wasn't some enlightened land of sunshine and daisies before Vandire took over in M36. It was still an oppressive theocracy that executed heretics and mutants, called for mutant and xenos genocide, and gave people no political rights. If anything, Vandire's reign brought to the Imperium high brass's attention the need for SEPARATION OF POWERS. When Sebastion Thor took over from Vandire he:
1) limited the Ecclesiarchy's power,
2) created the Ordo Hereticus to police things from within, and
3) passed laws preventing one person from holding multiple High Lord positions, which was what had let Vandire become the sole power behind the Imperium and be so horrible in the first place.

This means that, in a small way, Vandire's reign and subsequent defeat led to some IMPROVEMENTS in Imperium government. In fact, Thor's reign was generally a brighter time for the Imperium than it is now, or than it was shortly before Vandire's reign, and without Vandire, Thor would never have risen the way he did. The main differences between the Temple of the Savior Emperor (pre-Vandire Imperium religion) and the Conederation of Light (post-Vandire Imperium religion) are matters of symbolism and iconography. FFG has a source book that goes into more detail, but an Imperium that never had Vandire would be just as bad as it is now, if not worse, since it would be far less effective at dealing with Apostate Cardinals and rogue Planetary Governors, and there would be no checks and balances preventing someone as bad or WORSE than Vandire taking over.

 Lucius_the_Betrayer wrote:
I absolutely agree with the majority here. Erebus was the one who corrupted Horus' mind.

How was Typhoon even voted for?? I wonder if they read the books...

I voted for him. I thought his willingness to desecrate the sanctity of life by creating a zombie plague simply to amuse himself was pure evil. What books are there about him?

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Konrad Curze

This is interesting, definitely want to hear this explanation. As far as I've ever heard, he was the most repentant of the traitor Primarchs, and though ruthless, purged his homeworld of crime and became Space Batman.

Night lords did some of the worst atrocities of the Hersey, including massacring and torturing their way across the eastern fringe. It was all in the name of his own twisted sense of justice. Really only the emperors children behaved worse.

I don't give a damn if he was repentant afterwards

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Probably the Daemons.

Please read the title, kthanx

Yet Doombreed remains an option? He isn't human.

He isn't even dubiously semi-human like Astartes. He has as much in common with humans as the computer you're looking at.

Drakan Vangorich also deserves a mention. He assassinated all the High Lords of Terra and plunged the Imperium into turmoil apparently just for the lulz.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Probably the Daemons.

Please read the title, kthanx

Yet Doombreed remains an option? He isn't human.

He isn't even dubiously semi-human like Astartes. He has as much in common with humans as the computer you're looking at.

How strange that the OP of the thread didn't consult with me on this /s

 Ashiraya wrote:

 urbanknight4 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Probably the Daemons.

Please read the title, kthanx

Yet Doombreed remains an option? He isn't human.

He isn't even dubiously semi-human like Astartes. He has as much in common with humans as the computer you're looking at.

He was at one point, I guess that's good enough for OP.