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I prefer that interpretation too. Ironbovin got a Staff of Power (2) on his first game... not a chance he's selling it.

If you limit to what warbands extract, though, you might never encounter what you really want. I was so lucky on dice (read that as you will) that I found 7 potions out of my 4 treasure tokens. Maybe roll a pair of d20 for other random stuff the shops my get from other fictional warbands?

Alternately, I suppose you could add a 1 game waiting period for buying specific things. So you drop a ton of cash then wait for your agents to track the thing down. That might help the "achievement unlocked" feeling.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

If you limit to what warbands extract, though, you might never encounter what you really want.

I don't really see that as a 'problem'!

So far I like Manchu's 'house rule' best - magic items are supposed to be rare and expensive, right?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
If you limit to what warbands extract, though, you might never encounter what you really want.

I don't really see that as a 'problem'!

Agreed. In fact, I would say it is not a problem because magic items are icing rather than cake so to speak. By contrast, I would not suggest making the henchmen market a closed system. A big part of the pre-game game is choosing your warband so I don't think it makes sense to limit that. You wanted to get a Treasure Hunter but there are nothing but knights down at the labour exchange? No, that is just too limiting. But if you haven't managed to buy an orb of power, well that's one more reason to play the game.

I would make an exception for healing potions because it does not take a wizard or apprentice to make them (apothecaries can do it). I would use Wehrkind's extortionate pricing (sounds like a spell, huh?) suggestion for that, however, to encourage hiring apothecaries and discourage flooding the market with that delicious red goo that all health potions seem to be made from.

True. And I guess never coming across the item you cherish is part of the reason for going back into the ruins. If you get everything you want out of it inside of 5 games, what reason could you possibly have for going back, except for a sadistic pleasure you get from seeing your henchmen get slaughtered.

I want to play again. That being said, I am not investing in armour. If I find it, sure, but otherwise it is a false, very false, sense of security.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could we change the title, mebbe? I think it gives a false vibe of "dis game haz problems boyz."

 Manchu wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
If you limit to what warbands extract, though, you might never encounter what you really want.

I don't really see that as a 'problem'!

Agreed. In fact, I would say it is not a problem because magic items are icing rather than cake so to speak. By contrast, I would not suggest making the henchmen market a closed system. A big part of the pre-game game is choosing your warband so I don't think it makes sense to limit that. You wanted to get a Treasure Hunter but there are nothing but knights down at the labour exchange? No, that is just too limiting. But if you haven't managed to buy an orb of power, well that's one more reason to play the game.

I would make an exception for healing potions because it does not take a wizard or apprentice to make them (apothecaries can do it). I would use Wehrkind's extortionate pricing (sounds like a spell, huh?) suggestion for that, however, to encourage hiring apothecaries and discourage flooding the market with that delicious red goo that all health potions seem to be made from.

I like it!

Plus Wehrkind is becoming Dakka's version of Bigby!

Wehrkind's Extortionate Pricing!

Wehrkind's Spongy Factor!

What does he he have in store for us next?

What horror is he planning on releasing in to the wild?!?

Ahhh Bigby. Spawner of a thousand spells related to hands, and the millions of off color jokes related to same.

Wehrkind's Extortionate Pricing is actually taken by my wife, Choleric. I still remember the potion price wars on our WoW server...

But I will write up a caster class for all the various Wehrkind things!

Wehrkind's Extortionate Pricing

Enchanter / 18 / Out of Game

This spell doubles the cost of any items an opposing warband attempts to purchase until the end of the next game.

Three times, with the base cost of the item going to the Enchanter!

Optional: If the spell fails it is only 2x, and the base cost goes to player in the league with the lowest XP.

You're out of control!!!

I was thinking of an approach where you get 1 between-game action at most, which could be any of:

1) Find a base.
2) Upgrade your base by buying one upgrade.
3) Buy and/or sell items from *one* of the available treasure tables (e.g. you could buy/sell as many potions as you liked, OR as many weapons/armours as you liked, but not both). This represents you travelling out of the city to a specialist who makes that particular type of kit.

You'd also always get to cast one or more between-game spells (because the game is presumably already balanced for those).

I agree that the selling rate should be no more than 1/4 that of the buying rate, too. If you're a punter selling stuff... it's very much a buyer's market.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
it's very much a buyer's market

I am really struggling with this idea to be honest. In the setting, magic items are so rare and valuable that people are willing to risk extreme danger to find them. It doesn't sound like a buyer's market. But I guess we could take into account other factors: (a) Frostgrave is in a very remote area; (b) warbands have no way to move items to markets; and (c) wizards are not really concerned about turning a profit. So what might happen is, some enterprising fellow set up a trade post to rip off ... ahem ... provide quick coin in exchange for unwanted trinkets.

With that in mind, I would amend my suggestion above as follow: any item sold to the shop will be available to players at the next auction only. Thereafter, it is unavailable -- having been shipped off to a more habitable clime and sold for 2d4x its list price, one third (rounding down) of which is reinvested into the store for further purchases from the players in addition to one half (rounding down) of any money the store makes from auctioning items to the players.

Of course, entrepreneurial players are free to set up their own shops buying and selling magic items at whatever prices and on whatever terms they can manage. But the NPC shop remains their only connection to the markets beyond Frostgrave.

The buyer's market thing is because they're so scarce, that anyone trading in them is also capable of making them. So they don't need your tatty, rat-dropping-infused healing potion that's just been dug out of the snow. They can make a shiny new one.

I don't see a "magic shop" existing at all. The concept of a shop that buys stuff in and sells it on is quite a modern one -- the word comes from workshop, after all! I don't even see the potionmaker and magic armourer having workshops in the city; rather, the one action represents you travelling out the city to do your purchases. If you wanted to be even more harsh you could have only a certain chance of any given item being in stock.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
they're so scarce, that anyone trading in them is also capable of making them

Makes no sense.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I don't see a "magic shop" existing at all.

So you would suggest, magic items can only be sold to and by players?

How would you make a living as a dealer in incredibly rare artefacts *who is also capable of having the full range in stock at all times*? What is your trading set-up in the lifeless city? Why don't the warbands just work together to heist your magic shop?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Most of this stuff has been discussed to death in the pages of White Dwarf in the 1980s... magic shops just don't make economic sense if the magic is as rare as it is in most of the fiction that inspires fantasy gaming.)

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
How would you make a living as a dealer in incredibly rare artefacts *who is also capable of having the full range in stock at all times*?

How is the shop I described capable of having a full range in stock at all times? Maybe you did not read my posts ...

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
What is your trading set-up in the lifeless city?

Yeah, you definitely did not read my posts.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Why don't the warbands just work together to heist your magic shop?

First, no self-respecting wizard can bring himself to cooperate with rivals (i.e., all other wizards) save against another rival or to oppress and exploit the next generation (apprentices). It's a bit like the Sith. Second, in my scenario, all wizards have a high incentive to keep the trading post open: access to outside markets.

 Manchu wrote:
Wehrkind's Extortionate Pricing

Enchanter / 18 / Out of Game

This spell doubles the cost of any items an opposing warband attempts to purchase until the end of the next game.

I really like this - but we really, really need to get his 'signature' spell in here.

Wehrkind's Spongy Factor

Enchanter / 16 / Line of Sight

The target's armor because next to useless - the hardest metal becomes as soft, and as protective, as a sponge.

Target's armor is reduced by (x)

(having not played yet, I'm not sure what would be ''fair"!)

I'm loathe to make alterations to a published and playtested ruleset til I have at least a dozen games under my belt.

....OK?

I think there's some stuff that should have been caught in playtesting straight away though.

I think many/most groups will have to end up doing something to help balance out things and avoid the Necromunda Problem, such as it is.

That's a good rule for one-off style gaming but is totally impractical for campaign-style gaming. It applies even less to a game like Frostgrave, which is more about story arcs than winning.

Another thing to consider is, the main rulebook is heavy on suggestions and light on "thou shalt" style writing, which is only natural considering the inspirations, tone, and intent of the game.

Shops are not that recent, early middle ages at the latest. The bazaar was a thing back in Roman times. You are right though that being very rare items a whole shop wouldn't make sense. For enough money though they would be able to be tracked down. These are not really crazy powerful relics, but fairly mundane sorts of things for the most part. Magical weapons and armor can be made by most Enchanters pretty easily given the time. Potions as well, by witches. Assuming wizards are not super rare (which may well be false) I don't see a fluff reason not to be able to blow a lot of cash to track down and purchase stuff you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Wehrkind's Extortionate Pricing

Enchanter / 18 / Out of Game

This spell doubles the cost of any items an opposing warband attempts to purchase until the end of the next game.

I really like this - but we really, really need to get his 'signature' spell in here.

Wehrkind's Spongy Factor

Enchanter / 16 / Line of Sight

The target's armor because next to useless - the hardest metal becomes as soft, and as protective, as a sponge.

Target's armor is reduced by (x)

(having not played yet, I'm not sure what would be ''fair"!)

Wehrkind's Spongy Factor

Enchanter / 16 / Line of Sight
Target's armor is reduced by 2, and weapon damage reduced by 2, for the remainder of the game.
"Don't worry, happens to a lot of wizards your age!"

I love it!

Wherkind the Enchanter - how...Pyhthonesque!

My wizard model even has the horns on his hood!

Manchu,

Sorry, your original post about only having the NPC shop stocking the player-found items was a while back -- I should have had another look.

I still don't see how the economics of said shop work though. You're the shopkeeper. You can only get stock at random. Your starting capital has to be pretty high because we're talking about buying stuff on the off-chance that you can later sell it, but it's the stuff that at least one warband doesn't want. So, your initial stock is zero. You have to invest several hundred gold in henchmen to guard your base (more than a starting warband would cost -- you will probably need to recruit a wizard or two as guards, given the number of up-armed, up-magicked warbands in the city). You need a prime location which is accessible to lots of warbands for buying, but also secure against them for thieving. And you need money to stock your shop, one item at a time.

On the upside you don't have any rent or rates to pay because the city is abandoned. But the corollary to that is that your need for security is even more sky-high than it would be if this shop were in a bustling city, because you have no town watch or local lord + retinue to keep order.

Week 1. Invest 1000 gold or so in mercs, just to be at the same kind of level as a starting warband and so be able to make it barely worth their while to attack you (I'm assuming you can hire a wizard for 500). Have them find a locale.

Week 2. The first warband shows up with an unwanted magic item. Invest a bit more in buying it. You also spend a couple of hundred gold on more henchmen so you can still be not quite worthwhile to attack by the now more successful warbands.

Week 3. Nobody buys that first potion because it wasn't that great. You offer it at a discount. You buy another low-end potion from another warband. You upgrade your henchmen/base a bit more due to the ongoing arms/experience race.

Week 107... you finally have a decent amount of stock... you've spent many thousands at this point... none of the original warbands are interested in the low-end stuff you sell, but some newer, poorer warbands finally start showing up and buying from you.

Not sure I'd wanna invest in that business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, I do like where you're coming from in getting rid of the "all items are easily available to buy for anyone with the gold" approach. I just feel like I want a sword and sorcery feel for my game, and I want to go all-in with that -- which means probably starting from a similar perspective as you, but ending up going in a different direction.

I guess, ideally, I'd consider the way magic items work in a Clark Ashton Smith or Fritz Leiber story, and then figure out how to emulate that, if that were doable. So, even the more mundane magic items are pretty scarce -- anything bar a healing potion (I'm going to suspend my desire for genre emulation a bit for healing potions because you pretty much need them in this game, like so many others, and because the game makes it clear that apothecaries can make them). And the people who buy them tend to be sorcerers with a pretty specific need for them, rather than a shop per se. If a magic shop does show up, it's probably an elaborate scam, or a cover for something much more sinister. Wizards who deal in trading magic items with each other are probably not to be trusted -- it'd be an adventure in itself to make such a trade.

So, all that stuff could work fine in a TTRPG, but not so much in a skirmish wargame, where you want to focus on uptime action (scenarios / skirmishes) rather than downtime (trading in potions). Given that, either your solution or mine works fine, I think, but it's probably possible to make other solutions that also fit, including adding in a 'buy/sell powerful items' downtime action, with a random d20 table that gives different possibilities (say around a 50% chance that the trade goes as planned, with the other 50% leading to one or other interesting new scenario next (double-cross, scam, or perhaps the trade attracts the attention of other powerful forces who try to take both gold and magic).

I think you are still starting from a different set of assumptions. Chiefly, the in-setting goal of the business I am envisioning is NOT to sell stuff back to wizards. But let's not get ahead of ourselves; there are more basic issues.

As I described, my take on the setting has the following features:

- Frostgrave is quite remote from civilization generally
- there are not many accessible sites
- the only warbands are the ones actually being played

And most importantly, arcane knowledge and magical items are scarce enough that wizards are willing to personally risk their lives in the ruins.

The implication is that any items retrieved from the ruins are worth a huge amount back home and beyond. An entrepreneur could make a fortune selling whatever the wizards cast off. But how does he get them to cooperate? Well, first off, by providing infrastructure. A wizard may travel all the way to Frostgate with supplies, an apprentice, and adequate henchmen. But how is said wizard going to restock his victuals and mundane supplies, fill out his ranks, or replace a dead apprentice? Wizards are generally too busy working out the theory and practice of magic to take on such responsibilities. Second, he can help facilitate trade between wizards, who are notoriously uncooperative with one another.

But there is a larger economic principle at work here. Thing is, gold is not worth much beyond the pale of civilization. So carrying heaps of it out of ruins is pretty pointless unless there is someone there to accept it. But then he has to carry it all the way back to where it has real value. That guy would much rather have extremely valuable but relatively small items like rings and orbs than heavy money boxes. And no one is going to attack or try to steal from our man because they all need him.

Sure, that makes sense. It's not quite the vibe I really want from Frostgrave, but I can see how it works.

I think you are using the wrong model from the real world, Ian. Don't think "car dealership" think "illegal arms dealer". Arms dealers are not going to have their whole stock at their store or other location for meeting and coming up with deals. The deal is struck before any large risk is taken. Often times, the dealer only acts as a middle man who might not even take possession of the goods at any particular time, but rather just arranges payment and delivery options. There are many ways this can work out, and it has often occurred in some pretty inventive different ways in history.

I can direct you to a pretty interesting econ article about how African villages traded with European caravans that massively outgunned them. Institutions like advanced payment, tributes, and the like were used. Might be a better model for this sort of economy where rather powerful adventurers are trying to trade very expensive goods with second and third parties.

Hey guys posted up a Frostgrave Napoleonic's topic if you want to take a look?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/659283.page

BTW, has anyone given thought to balance between the men-at-arms options? Still think that Treasure Hunter is mechanically significantly superior to near equivalents, largely because +1 Fight (i.e. +1 to hit, +1 to damage you deal, and +1 to avoid being hit even against arrows) for having a dagger in your off-hand (!) is much better than +1 Armour AND -1 Move for having a shield. (The TH's +1 Will is just the icing on the cake.)

I would propose that a dagger just gives you +1 to hit and avoid being hit in hand-to-hand, but that you reduce the damage done by 1 in hand-to-hand, since the dagger is theoretically not helpful there.

Possibly I have an anti-dual-wielding bias, having done lots and lots of larp where for most people at least, it's the worst option (much less useful than two-handed weapon or sword-and-shield).

Depends on the weapons you're using, and how light the manufacturer made them. I used to prefer my trusty hammer and shield, but a guy came in with two super-light, slender blades. Disabused me of that notion right there. (Admittedly, I have never been the violent type, even for play)

Although it might work, it might make for a bit more complication when calculating damage.

I think men at arms come into their own a little more when you give them a magic weapon or armour? Personally, I skipped right over them and got a Treasure Hunter and a pair of Barbarians. As soon as I can afford/find magic weapons for those two, I'm golden.