Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 doktor_g wrote:
Texted a buddy. He said when he puts 2 or 3 rune priests @ML2 in a unit (deathstar) that TFG would say that the whole unit ciuld only cast 2 powers. I call bull gak on that. They could cast six.... right?

My example was that each termie could cast force and tge libby could cast force and something else. Right? OR would forego force and cast two orher things... so the whole unit would cast 3? Even though the "unit" is ML2? Is that what this is about?

Seems like wvery psycher in the unit can cast a number up to his mastery level? So 4 ML2s in a death star could cast 8 differemt powers right?

Im lost.

The only limits on how many powers a psychic unit can cast is the amount of powers it knows, and the amount of warp charges you have to use. there is literally nothing to say that you can only cast an amount of powers equal to your ML

You should also read the force power again. you only have to cast it once per unit, including any ICs in that unit.

Texted a buddy. He said when he puts 2 or 3 rune priests @ML2 in a unit (deathstar) that TFG would say that the whole unit ciuld only cast 2 powers. I call bull gak on that. They could cast six.... right? 

Why six? You can cast as many powers as you have warp charge to do so.

Well, golly. Ok. So can a unit of GK termies plus libby. Fail their force cast or get denied then try again?

A different model in the unit could try to cast force again.

Oh man. That sucks for me. Ill let my GK player know. Thanks

Still curious,
How many Warp Charges is he generating on the Unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers Special Rule?

 Leth wrote:
A different model in the unit could try to cast force again.

Not necessarily. The rules break down when you start joining Psyker ICs to units. As such there are two ways to go about this.

1. The whole unit is a Psyker unit and as such the unit in its entirety can only attempt a given power once (this is as close to RAW as possible).
2. Psyker unit refers to the datasheet entry, as such an IC joined to a unit is a Psyker unit unto itself, and as such if one psyker IC attempts a power, another Psyker IC in the same unit can attempt it (HIWPI).

 Happyjew wrote:

 Leth wrote:
A different model in the unit could try to cast force again.

Not necessarily. The rules break down when you start joining Psyker ICs to units. As such there are two ways to go about this.

1. The whole unit is a Psyker unit and as such the unit in its entirety can only attempt a given power once (this is as close to RAW as possible).
2. Psyker unit refers to the datasheet entry, as such an IC joined to a unit is a Psyker unit unto itself, and as such if one psyker IC attempts a power, another Psyker IC in the same unit can attempt it (HIWPI).

The problem is that interpretation 1 causes the psychic phase to fall apart if you maintain consistency.

Interpretation 2 means that everything keeps working.

When in doubt, go with the interpretation that keeps the game working.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Leth wrote:
A different model in the unit could try to cast force again.

Not necessarily. The rules break down when you start joining Psyker ICs to units. As such there are two ways to go about this.

1. The whole unit is a Psyker unit and as such the unit in its entirety can only attempt a given power once (this is as close to RAW as possible).
2. Psyker unit refers to the datasheet entry, as such an IC joined to a unit is a Psyker unit unto itself, and as such if one psyker IC attempts a power, another Psyker IC in the same unit can attempt it (HIWPI).

The problem is that interpretation 1 causes the psychic phase to fall apart if you maintain consistency. Because psyker is a special rule it does not confer to the unit. As such you cant even select the psyker for casting powers at all. More than one psyker there is no way to determine which mastery level you use, etc.

Interpretation 2 means that everything keeps working.

When in doubt, go with the interpretation that keeps the game working.

Leth you've got it right and everyone I know plays it that way.

 Leth wrote:

The problem is that interpretation 1 causes the psychic phase to fall apart if you maintain consistency.

Interpretation 2 means that everything keeps working.

When in doubt, go with the interpretation that keeps the game working.

The problem with that is that 'interpretation 2' isn't an interpretation of the actual written rules at all. It's a rules change that has been commonly adopted in order to make the psychic phase function.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doktor_g wrote:
Texted a buddy. He said when he puts 2 or 3 rune priests @ML2 in a unit (deathstar) that TFG would say that the whole unit ciuld only cast 2 powers. I call bull gak on that. They could cast six.... right?

As others have pointed out, psyker units can cast as many powers as they have charges for, with the proviso that they can't attempt to cast the same power twice.


The issue that has been discussed here (and in just about every previous thread about the psychic phase in 7th edition) is that those two or three Rune Priests technically count as a single unit. And since the rulebook defines 'psykers' and 'psyker units' as units with the 'Psyker' rule, so far as the RAW is concerned those 2 or 3 Rune Priests count as a single psyker unit.

And as a result of that, the psychic phase is horribly broken (and becomes non-functional the moment you join an IC psyker to a non-psyker unit, or to another psyker with a different mastery level), and so most people ignore it and treat each psyker as a separate entity for resolving the psychic phase, whether they are joined to another unit or not.

Well technically no Psyker unit ever exists. As they are defined as units with the Psyker or BoP/S special rules. No such unit exists as I am not aware of any unit that even has the ability to have any special rules let alone those specific ones...

Seeing the psychic phase is new to 40k in 7th edition they didn't write the rules for it as tight as they could have... But like I said it's something new. It'll be interesting to see if they modify anything when the next edition is released.

 FlingitNow wrote:
As they are defined as units with the Psyker or BoP/S special rules. No such unit exists as I am not aware of any unit that even has the ability to have any special rules let alone those specific ones...

This is not true.

A Space Marine Librarian is a unit. That unit has the Psyker special rule, because the only model in it has the Psyker special rule.

A Space Marine Librarian joined to another Space Marine Librarian is a unit. That unit has the Psyker special rule, because every model in it has the Psyker special rule.

A Space Marine Librarian joined to a Tactical Squad is a unit. Depending on interpretation, that unit could be considered to have the Psyker special rule (because that special rule is present in the unit, in the same way that a football team can be considered to have a football even though they don't all have one of their own) or not to be a unit with the Psyker rule (because only some models in the unit have the rule)...

So I don't really understand this discussion, this is how my group plays psykers and the psychic phase. Do we do it right?
Assuming Arhiman is joined to the unit of Thousand Sons

Roll your D6 then add the Mastery Level for each model that is a psyker or any brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers units.
Eg. Roll a 4, then add 4 for Arhiman, 1 for the Thousands Sons Sorcerer. We consider psykers seperate from their units for determining mastery level.

Arhiman targets an enemy unit with Tzeentch Firestorm. The other Sorcerer in the unit cannot then cast Tzeentch Firestorm because the unit has already used this power.
That sorcerer could cast doombolt however but in doing so it stops Ahriman casting his doombolt.

A psyker can only cast as many powers as there warp charges available or until ever power has been cast its maximum amount of times, including by other psykers in the unit.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
We consider psykers seperate from their units for determining mastery level.

That's how it's generally done, yes. It's just not what the rules actually say to do.

Arhiman targets an enemy unit with Tzeentch Firestorm. The other Sorcerer in the unit cannot then cast Tzeentch Firestorm because the unit has already used this power.

There is some debate on this, as some people feel that the statement that the 'unit' can't cast the same power twice is (in context) referring to the psyker unit, and if you are treating each psyker as a separate psyker unit, that would allow your other sorcerer to cast the same power as Ahriman.

Well how do you determine the mastery level of a 'psyker unit'

Is the majority? Or do you add then up? I.e. Arhiman is 4 plus a sorcerer is 1 so that 'psyker unit' has a Mastery Level of 5?

That's precisely the problem. The rules don't tell us how to determine the mastery level of a Psyker Unit that contains psykers with different mastery levels.

Either GW didn't consider it when they wrote the rules, they didn't think it was going to happen often enough to warrant covering it in the rules (these are the same people who thought that Librarians needed a buff from 5th edition, after all) or what they wrote in the book wasn't at all how they meant it to actually work.

Most people assume the third scenario.

They redid the psychic phase this edition, so Id expect there to be 'bugs' with the wording.

I don't think they meant to penalize units which happened to draw the same psychic powers.

In 6th powers were pretty much shooting attacks so this didnt happen.

I think the intent of the new psychic phase was to make the warp charge points and casting/denying more fun, not to fundamentally change some aspects like an IC not casting when joined to a unit, or multiple ICs not casting the same power twice when joined together.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
They redid the psychic phase this edition, so Id expect there to be 'bugs' with the wording.

I don't think they meant to penalize units which happened to draw the same psychic powers.

In 6th powers were pretty much shooting attacks so this didnt happen.

I think the intent of the new psychic phase was to make the warp charge points and casting/denying more fun, not to fundamentally change some aspects like an IC not casting when joined to a unit, or multiple ICs not casting the same power twice when joined together.

Basically the only way the psychic phase consistently works is if you always treat each psyker as an independent unit during the psychic phase. Otherwise it all falls apart if you remain consistent

 chaosmarauder wrote:
They redid the psychic phase this edition, so Id expect there to be 'bugs' with the wording..

Sure, that happens.

Most companies would then publish errata to fix it once those bugs become apparent, though.

GW hasn't, which leaves us having this discussion at least once a week.

Hey I kinda found something in brb that could help here. You guys check out Psyker and Brotherhood of Psykers under special rules?

Under Psyker it says it confers it to one model - the whole psychic phase makes sense if you use that definition and not 'unit'.

Under Brotherhood it says its conferred to the whole unit.

Yes, that's what we've been saying for this entire thread.

Ah it looked to me people were mostly quoting or just looking at the psychic phase section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the phrase

"The number of psychic powers a psyker can manifest depends on his mastery level".

Is bolded in the rulebook to put emphasis on it.

They didnt mention or include warp charges or other psyker's mastery levels in that sentence, which they also 'depend' upon.

At face value it pretty much looks like they're saying each psyker can cast as many powers as it has levels.

To clarify a little - the special rule section is irrelevant so far as RAW for casting powers is concerned. The Psyker special rule is conferred to a model, yes... but the definition of 'psyker' used in the psychic phase is a unit with the Psyker rule.

Counting each psyker model as an individual psyker unit is just the common workaround that makes the psychic phase function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Also, the phrase

"The number of psychic powers a psyker can manifest depends on his mastery level".

Is bolded in the rulebook to put emphasis on it.

They didnt mention or include warp charges or other psyker's mastery levels in that sentence, which they also 'depend' upon.

At face value it pretty much looks like they're saying each psyker can cast as many powers as it has levels.

At face value, perhaps. Until you notice that this section was just a direct copy-paste from last edition's rulebook, where psykers were specifically limited by Mastery Level.

Without the relationship between ML and number of powers you can cast actually being specified, we're left with a vague reference to the latter 'depending on' the former (which means absolutely nothing useful in and of itself), and a statement in the Casting rules that states that after casting a power, a psyker can cast another so long as he has Warp Charges remaining.


To me, the obvious conclusion is that GW intended for psykers to be able to cast as many powers as they have Warp Charges for, but accidentally left in the introduction from last edition due to this book being rushed to print, and editors being something that happens to other people.


Whatever the intention was though, as it currently stands there is no limitation on how many powers a model can cast, beyond how many Charges they have access to. The statement in the introduction does nothing without some sort of definition of just what the dependancy actually is.

I call it hack-and-paste... where a publisher hacks apart an older Rule-set and shoves the pieces into places they don't really fit while creating a new Rule-set.
I won't rant on again about how stupid this is right now, or the greed filled reasons behind it, but 7th Edition Warhammer 40k is a prime example of this practice.

This is not true. 

A Space Marine Librarian is a unit. That unit has the Psyker special rule, because the only model in it has the Psyker special rule. 

Please quote the rule that states a unit gains a special rule if every model in the unit has it. Indeed please state any rules on how units get special rules?

There is no rule that says that, just as there is no rule that says that the unit moves 6" if all the models in it move 6", or that the unit hits on a 3+ if all of the models in it hit on a 3+.

It's just the way the English language works.

I disagree it is the way the English language works at all. I would say that if a model had the special rule you could say the unit contains (and therefore has) the special rule. Claiming that all models having a special rule definitively means the unit has the special rule is not RaW at all.

A unit of 10 marines for instance. Each marines has the property of having 2 legs. Does this mean the unit has 2 legs? Because maths says it's 10 legs.

Or for instance 10 people can each drive a car. Can the unit drive a car? What if only 1 of the 10 could drive a car? If different why?

 FlingitNow wrote:
I would say that if a model had the special rule you could say the unit contains (and therefore has) the special rule.

Which is exactly what I'm saying.

The unit has the special rule, because the models in it have the special rule.

Claiming that all models having a special rule definitively means the unit has the special rule is not RaW at all.

I never said it was RAW. I said it was the result of the way our language works.

Similarly, picking up a die, shaking it, and dropping it to the table so that it rolls is not RAW. It is, however, what is meant when a rule tells you to roll a die.

A unit of 10 marines for instance. Each marines has the property of having 2 legs. Does this mean the unit has 2 legs? Because maths says it's 10 legs.

That would certainly be stretching the language, yes. You could however say that the unit has legs, because the models that make up the unit have legs.

Or for instance 10 people can each drive a car. Can the unit drive a car? What if only 1 of the 10 could drive a car?

Yes. And No. As I mentioned earlier in the thread.

This is the issue with the rules not currently telling us what to do in the case of a Psyker IC joining a non-psyker unit. The resultant unit either is, or isn't, a unit with the Psyker rule, depending on interpretation.

I see no reason to believe a unit made up of models who all have Psyker has the Psyker rule anymore than a unit that contains 1 model with the Psyker rule. Why are you claiming one but not the other?