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I realize they haven't been released yet and there probably aren't many people who have tried them, but what do we think is going to be the general loadout for them? The crossbows or skybows? The crossbows seem awesome to shoot with because of all of the extra shots you can get but the 12" is so limiting and the special weapon basically means it should only be shooting at 3 man squads or heroes, further limiting their usefulness.

On the other hand, the bows have good range, good to hit/to wound and even get a rend. The special weapon associated with it also seems to be more broadly applicable because it works against all targets and will just generate more hits (which might get the total number of wounds caused to a similar amount as the xbows). Anyway, just wanted to see what you guys were thinking before I open my boxes and start building them.

Im going with bows from the first box simply for the range and the upgraded bow. I believe them to be more flexible overall, once your in crossbow range you'll be in combat the following turn and they're not combat machines even with the shooting.

G

It might depend on what scenario you're playing and what your opponent fields. Predetermining is so 8th!

PS: I'm very interested in people's experience with magnetizing for this very reason.

Bows are definitely the first unit you should build, as they are the most flexible/forgiving.
However, I think the killer app for the xbow unit is as close-support, in the thick of it thinning stuff out ready for a prime melee unit.

Magnetising won't work for me though - the xbow Judicators have different heads, and as my model prep OCD would insist I magnetise the heads I just cannot be bothered...

Gotta be the skybolts with the shock bow. Remember Rapid Fire, so 10 attacks and 2 hitting on 2+ for the prime with the shock bow... Big damage at 24"!

Math hammer, its 7 or so -1 rending wounds when rapid firing at 24 inches.

Rapid Fire gives an extra attack to the Boltstorm Crossbow attacks. Assuming you give the Shock/Thunderbolt Bow to the Judicator-Prime, that mean 4x3=12 attacks, at H3+/W4+ for 4 wounds, no rend...at 12" or less.

Skybolt Bow gives 4 attacks @ H3+/W3+ for ~1.5 wounds, -1 rend at 24" or less.

Horses for courses...but as RoperPG says, a Boltstorm unit would be great in close support.

I like Skybolt Bows with a thunderbolt crossbow in the unit.
Auto D3 mortal wounds against anything with 6 or more models in it is very useful, and it doesn't need to be on the champ.

gradyhawks wrote:
Gotta be the skybolts with the shock bow. Remember Rapid Fire, so 10 attacks and 2 hitting on 2+ for the prime with the shock bow... Big damage at 24"!

Math hammer, its 7 or so -1 rending wounds when rapid firing at 24 inches.

Just realised that you can't rapid fire the skybolts ... so only the 4 attacks plus the shock bow.

Still I think I would rather have the SkyBolts, but would want some kind of + to hit buff with them, or they aint getting many hits. The 12" range of the crossbows just seems rather mad... they will get 1 volly off then get charged. Cant see you really ever getting rapid fire off with them. I guess you need to use the crossbows WITH a large group of liberators, say 10 or so, and stick these 4/5 inches behind them and shoot into combat.

gradyhawks wrote:

gradyhawks wrote:
Gotta be the skybolts with the shock bow. Remember Rapid Fire, so 10 attacks and 2 hitting on 2+ for the prime with the shock bow... Big damage at 24"!

Math hammer, its 7 or so -1 rending wounds when rapid firing at 24 inches.

Just realised that you can't rapid fire the skybolts ... so only the 4 attacks plus the shock bow.

Still I think I would rather have the SkyBolts, but would want some kind of + to hit buff with them, or they aint getting many hits. The 12" range of the crossbows just seems rather mad... they will get 1 volly off then get charged. Cant see you really ever getting rapid fire off with them. I guess you need to use the crossbows WITH a large group of liberators, say 10 or so, and stick these 4/5 inches behind them and shoot into combat.

Or even shoot them from combat. They wouldn't have moved, so they could get the rapid fire off each turn. That could be a painful unit to be going into combat around. I think I'm leaning to them over the bows because of the shooting from combat rules.

burningstuff wrote:
Or even shoot them from combat. They wouldn't have moved, so they could get the rapid fire off each turn. That could be a painful unit to be going into combat around. I think I'm leaning to them over the bows because of the shooting from combat rules.

Totally forgot about shooting in combat .... looking at ~5 wounds in close combat, from just 4 guys (not counting the Prime) which is impressive. Thinking about the shooting in combat, the crossbows win. I think they will be best to use WITH liberators though, send the liberators in first and then your Judicators to add plenty of extra wounds in. 5 wounds against 1 wound, no save models would be enough to cause a bit of damage battleshock wise as well.

I think 4 crossbows with the shockbolt bow is a good choice, gives you a 2+ to hit D6 wounds on a target 24inchs away as well as some very tasty close combat/shooting. Means they can at least do something if they are 13+ inches away.

gradyhawks wrote:

burningstuff wrote:
Or even shoot them from combat. They wouldn't have moved, so they could get the rapid fire off each turn. That could be a painful unit to be going into combat around. I think I'm leaning to them over the bows because of the shooting from combat rules.

Totally forgot about shooting in combat .... looking at ~5 wounds in close combat, from just 4 guys (not counting the Prime) which is impressive. Thinking about the shooting in combat, the crossbows win. I think they will be best to use WITH liberators though, send the liberators in first and then your Judicators to add plenty of extra wounds in. 5 wounds against 1 wound, no save models would be enough to cause a bit of damage battleshock wise as well.

I think 4 crossbows with the shockbolt bow is a good choice, gives you a 2+ to hit D6 wounds on a target 24inchs away as well as some very tasty close combat/shooting. Means they can at least do something if they are 13+ inches away.

I agree. Am I seeing right that the special weapon is only one model in the box and you just name which one it is during the game? That's a bit unfortunate.

Indeed, looks like there is just the Special Weapon crossbow in the box ... would have been nice to see a beefed up Skybow :(

Yeah for me I think I've decided it comes down to the roll you think you will need and long range fire support is what this army needs. 12" range and only have 3 shots if you don't move is pretty limited to close range fire support which I think the prosecutors can fill. Having a unit that can sit back and shoot seems to be much better as nothing else in the army can fulfill this role.

I will say that the crossbow special weapon is great against heroes and monsters and is the only redeeming thing for me that even makes me want to take the xbows. I don't think it is going to ultimately be enough to make me take them but it is pretty awesome to just pick a hero within 18" and cause d3 mortal wounds.

Killermonkey wrote:
Yeah for me I think I've decided it comes down to the roll you think you will need and long range fire support is what this army needs. 12" range and only have 3 shots if you don't move is pretty limited to close range fire support which I think the prosecutors can fill. Having a unit that can sit back and shoot seems to be much better as nothing else in the army can fulfill this role.

I will say that the crossbow special weapon is great against heroes and monsters and is the only redeeming thing for me that even makes me want to take the xbows. I don't think it is going to ultimately be enough to make me take them but it is pretty awesome to just pick a hero within 18" and cause d3 mortal wounds.

You might want to re-read that.


Roll a D6, subtract 1 if the target is a monster or hero.
If the total is equal to or less than the number of models in the target unit, you do D3 mortal wounds.

The target unit is 1 model.
If you roll a 1 or 2, you do D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll a 3 or higher, you do nothing.

The special crossbow is good at killing larger units, and much worse at single models. If you shoot at a unit of 6 or more, it's auto-mortal wounds.

Prosecutors are 18" and 12" movement. I'm using mine to shoot up a unit near the extreme flank, and then charge into the extreme flank. With 3D6" charge, they've got the speed to do it.
Judicators with 24" or 18" range have enough reach to support this, and I'm able to cripple two units at a time.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:
Yeah for me I think I've decided it comes down to the roll you think you will need and long range fire support is what this army needs. 12" range and only have 3 shots if you don't move is pretty limited to close range fire support which I think the prosecutors can fill. Having a unit that can sit back and shoot seems to be much better as nothing else in the army can fulfill this role.

I will say that the crossbow special weapon is great against heroes and monsters and is the only redeeming thing for me that even makes me want to take the xbows. I don't think it is going to ultimately be enough to make me take them but it is pretty awesome to just pick a hero within 18" and cause d3 mortal wounds.

You might want to re-read that.


Roll a D6, subtract 1 if the target is a monster or hero.
If the total is equal to or less than the number of models in the target unit, you do D3 mortal wounds.

The target unit is 1 model.
If you roll a 1 or 2, you do D3 mortal wounds.
If you roll a 3 or higher, you do nothing.

The special crossbow is good at killing larger units, and much worse at single models. If you shoot at a unit of 6 or more, it's auto-mortal wounds.

Prosecutors are 18" and 12" movement. I'm using mine to shoot up a unit near the extreme flank, and then charge into the extreme flank. With 3D6" charge, they've got the speed to do it.
Judicators with 24" or 18" range have enough reach to support this, and I'm able to cripple two units at a time.

Wow you are right! I misread that and was working under the assumption that it was good against smaller sized units. That changes things a lot.... I guess I will need to re-evaluate my thinking. I've found a lot of the things that cause issues are heroes and monsters so it might be the bows then that are just better at dealing with those.

If I do some quick math I get the following:

A five man unit with bows shooting at any target w/ the justicar holding the special bow will generate 5.58 hits and 3.72 wounds at -1 rend.

Xbows shooting at a target above 6 models and having moved will generate 5.33 hits and 2.67 wounds at 0 rend and 2 mortal wounds.
Xbows shooting at a target above 6 models and not having moved will generate 8 hits and 4 wounds at 0 rend and 2 mortal wounds.

Against a 4+ save you are killing 2.48 wounds with bow and 4 with the xbow (having not moved) and 3.33 (having moved). Against single models or times you fail the special weapon roll you only get 2 and 1.33.

Against a 5+ save you are killing 3.10 wounds with bow and 4.67 with the xbow (having not moved) and 3.78 (having moved). Against single models or times you fail the special weapon roll you only get 2.67 and 1.78.

So it seems you are getting just about ~1.5 wounds more if you don't move and ~.75 wounds if you do against larger units and ~.50 (not moving) and ~1 (moving) less wounds against small/single models.

Does the upside make the xbows desirable considering the range requirements if you take into account the downside of having to shoot a single model? I can't answer that definitively but I think the consistency and range of the normal bows will outweigh that upside. That said, I will grant the fact that against units with better saves/re-rolling saves then the mortal wounds become even more valuable. Also feel free to correct my math if you see that I screwed up something but it should be pretty spot on.

This post emphasises for me the need to know your army inside-out if you're playing vanilla AoS. Depending what my opponent is deploying, I might need to make some real-time decisions about load-outs and unit sizes.

Snapshot wrote:
This post emphasises for me the need to know your army inside-out if you're playing vanilla AoS. Depending what my opponent is deploying, I might need to make some real-time decisions about load-outs and unit sizes.

THIS.

RoperPG wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
This post emphasises for me the need to know your army inside-out if you're playing vanilla AoS. Depending what my opponent is deploying, I might need to make some real-time decisions about load-outs and unit sizes.

THIS.

I agree with this. I believe they are going to eventually rebalance the model lines to be very similar to the Stormcast army in that the unit choices are all individually strong but are not outright better than another choice in every situation. Want a survivable unit? Liberators. Want a hard hitting unit? Paladin variant depending on what you want to kill (tough dudes use retributors, low bravery use decimators, monsters/shooting use protectors). I do think that you are supposed to determine what army you are going to bring before you start deploying but you can tailor a little bit if you have an idea what you need before you start setting them down. I think this because if you read the scenarios in the new book, a lot of them say that if you are out-numbered by 33% or more then you are one of the specific sides that has a specific deployment zone/rules.

Is pretty smart from GW. Do I want bows or crossbows ... ? Kind of need to have both to be honest!

gradyhawks wrote:
Is pretty smart from GW. Do I want bows or crossbows ... ? Kind of need to have both to be honest!

I think that the long range bows are more useful in first place say if you face warmachines.
Everything else Sigmarines can eventually handle in cc.

 wuestenfux wrote:

gradyhawks wrote:
Is pretty smart from GW. Do I want bows or crossbows ... ? Kind of need to have both to be honest!

I think that the long range bows are more useful in first place say if you face warmachines.
Everything else Sigmarines can eventually handle in cc.

Judicators with bows are the most flexible and are your 'stay at the back' option.
However, have already found that xbow Judicators supporting an advance are brutal and in some cases better performing than Liberators at close range.


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Also extremely good in situations where the opponent has to come to you, like the hold or die scenario.