usefulness of a 3+ save.

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**Bharring**

A walkover compared to what? Kalabite heavy lists? Harlequin heavy lists? Top 10 tourny lists?

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
A walkover compared to what? Kalabite heavy lists? Harlequin heavy lists? Top 10 tourny lists?

A walkover for any list trying to be competitive. I was beating tac heavy lists in 5th before the Ward dex pretty easily.

**Bharring**

So, the only state in which Tacs are balanced is when they are the most OP option?

**master of ordinance**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If you think shooting Tacs after popping their transport is a turkey shoot, you should try shooting DAs after popping theirs. Or Kalabites. Or Fire Warriors. Or IG Vets.

The t4 3+ makes it much less of a turkey shoot. Again, those without a 3+ are worse in the exact situation you imagine puts Tacs at the bottom of the totem pole.

The difference is that the marines can't pop the WS. That's a huge, huge, difference. The WS crushes marine transports and then cripples the marines for an easy mop up. 3+ doesn't help. Having real weapons would. It's all coming back to offense and the marines' lack thereof.

Yes, tacs have an advantage in a magical world where no one is meched up and there are no enemy massed heavy weapons.

I guess my bottom line is that if it's a model worth fielding in the first place, 3+ armor is great. Scatterbikes are my exhibit A for this. They'd be good at 4+ or 5+ armor, but 3+ just makes them that much better. Tac marines are defined by their armor and little else. This used to work out back in 3rd and 4th, but doesn't work anymore. Tacs aren't worth fielding to begin with, and the 3+ just delays their inevitable demise to superior mobility and firepower.

Tacs are an expensive way to kill nothing and accomplish nothing in 7th ed. Obviously, free transports changes a lot because that's free HP for the Eldar to scrub away before they get to the units you actually paid for.

Wait so in this scenario the problem is the Rhino vs WS matchup, which pits a 35 pt tank against a 120pt tank.

And that makes Tactical Marines bad.

Okay.

Pretty much what I was thinking. That is a 120 point tank from one of the meta codexes. It is nasty. It is shooting your 35 point APC. Why, by any stretch of the imagination, do you expect your 35 point APC - not Battletank, Armoured Personal Transport - to survive the shooting from a 120 point Infantry Fighting Vehicle?

And more to the point how does that mean that Tactical Smurfs are bad? For feths sake they are under priced at the moment.

**Martel732**

"For feths sake they are under priced at the moment."

Not even close.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So, the only state in which Tacs are balanced is when they are the most OP option?

Hey, I'd settle for just not having to take them for troops.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:

No, because tacs have had the same problem for a long time. They really can't get enemy models off the table. If you use them as back field scoring units, they aren't really contributing and your list gets torn apart piecemeal. They become a turn 4 or 5 casualty during the tabling process.

"- I'd guess 80% - of the units in the game."

The 80% that don't typically get used.

Really? Try playing Imperial Guard. Your Tacs clear the board at a rate of knots compared to even 10 times their number of IG grunts.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
A walkover compared to what? Kalabite heavy lists? Harlequin heavy lists? Top 10 tourny lists?

A walkover for any list trying to be competitive. I was beating tac heavy lists in 5th before the Ward dex pretty easily.

What do you mean by competitive? I have a friend who plays a conscript horde guard, and he likes to see his army win. I play armored battlegroup, and I like to see my army win. One of my best friends plays Militarum Tempestus and likes to see his army win.

None of those are particularly fantastic against tactical marines, though, and have lost before to tactical spam.

I suppose your definition of competitive is a bit more extreme though?

**Martel732**

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, because tacs have had the same problem for a long time. They really can't get enemy models off the table. If you use them as back field scoring units, they aren't really contributing and your list gets torn apart piecemeal. They become a turn 4 or 5 casualty during the tabling process.

"- I'd guess 80% - of the units in the game."

The 80% that don't typically get used.

Really? Try playing Imperial Guard. Your Tacs clear the board at a rate of knots compared to even 10 times their number of IG grunts.

No, they don't, because they are made dead by the IG list.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
"For feths sake they are under priced at the moment."

Not even close.

Okay, then tell me how 18 points worth of stats, gear and rules are compressed into 14 points?

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
A walkover compared to what? Kalabite heavy lists? Harlequin heavy lists? Top 10 tourny lists?

A walkover for any list trying to be competitive. I was beating tac heavy lists in 5th before the Ward dex pretty easily.

What do you mean by competitive? I have a friend who plays a conscript horde guard, and he likes to see his army win. I play armored battlegroup, and I like to see my army win. One of my best friends plays Militarum Tempestus and likes to see his army win.

None of those are particularly fantastic against tactical marines, though, and have lost before to tactical spam.

I suppose your definition of competitive is a bit more extreme though?

My last game against Eldar had 25 scatterbikes and double Wraithknight. BA tabled by top of 4.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"For feths sake they are under priced at the moment."

Not even close.

Okay, then tell me how 18 points worth of stats, gear and rules are compressed into 14 points?

Because the stats, gear and rules don't play like an 18 or 14 pt model.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, because tacs have had the same problem for a long time. They really can't get enemy models off the table. If you use them as back field scoring units, they aren't really contributing and your list gets torn apart piecemeal. They become a turn 4 or 5 casualty during the tabling process.

"- I'd guess 80% - of the units in the game."

The 80% that don't typically get used.

Really? Try playing Imperial Guard. Your Tacs clear the board at a rate of knots compared to even 10 times their number of IG grunts.

No, they don't, because they are made dead by the IG list.

Ahahahahahaha no.

Of those 100 Guardsmen only 50 will hit. 15 shots will wound. And 5 will get through. The return fire will cull them dead.

**Martel732**

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, because tacs have had the same problem for a long time. They really can't get enemy models off the table. If you use them as back field scoring units, they aren't really contributing and your list gets torn apart piecemeal. They become a turn 4 or 5 casualty during the tabling process.

"- I'd guess 80% - of the units in the game."

The 80% that don't typically get used.

Really? Try playing Imperial Guard. Your Tacs clear the board at a rate of knots compared to even 10 times their number of IG grunts.

No, they don't, because they are made dead by the IG list.

Ahahahahahaha no.

Of those 100 Guardsmen only 50 will hit. 15 shots will wound. And 5 will get through. The return fire will cull them dead.

The IG have more than guardsmen. The game is not troop vs troop.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"For feths sake they are under priced at the moment."

Not even close.

Okay, then tell me how 18 points worth of stats, gear and rules are compressed into 14 points?

Because the stats, gear and rules don't play like an 18 or 14 pt model.

Then once again try being an IG player. We pay 5 points for our Guardsmen and they dont even play like that. 3 points maybe but not 5.

**Martel732**

I've played army swaps with IG against BA. Haven't lost yet. Yes, Gladius and Skyhammer are a thing, but those have nothing to do with the efficacy of tac squads.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, because tacs have had the same problem for a long time. They really can't get enemy models off the table. If you use them as back field scoring units, they aren't really contributing and your list gets torn apart piecemeal. They become a turn 4 or 5 casualty during the tabling process.

"- I'd guess 80% - of the units in the game."

The 80% that don't typically get used.

Really? Try playing Imperial Guard. Your Tacs clear the board at a rate of knots compared to even 10 times their number of IG grunts.

No, they don't, because they are made dead by the IG list.

Ahahahahahaha no.

Of those 100 Guardsmen only 50 will hit. 15 shots will wound. And 5 will get through. The return fire will cull them dead.

The IG have more than guardsmen. The game is not troop vs troop.

Nope, it is quality vs quality and the Guardsmen get shat on by just about every other basic troops choice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I've played army swaps with IG against BA. Haven't lost yet. Yes, Gladius and Skyhammer are a thing, but those have nothing to do with the efficacy of tac squads.

Must be a terrible BA player then.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
A walkover compared to what? Kalabite heavy lists? Harlequin heavy lists? Top 10 tourny lists?

A walkover for any list trying to be competitive. I was beating tac heavy lists in 5th before the Ward dex pretty easily.

What do you mean by competitive? I have a friend who plays a conscript horde guard, and he likes to see his army win. I play armored battlegroup, and I like to see my army win. One of my best friends plays Militarum Tempestus and likes to see his army win.

None of those are particularly fantastic against tactical marines, though, and have lost before to tactical spam.

I suppose your definition of competitive is a bit more extreme though?

My last game against Eldar had 25 scatterbikes and double Wraithknight. BA tabled by top of 4.

Once again, I will reiterate three points that you seem to refuse to absorb:

1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured; they are aberrations.

2) Your meta is way way more competitive than most others, and most people there likely wouldn't get a game here. Buffing tactical marines will help your meta, but will simply upset the rest of ours.

3) you lasted till turn 4 against that? Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!

**Martel732**

"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are. Just as Jordan and Manning are the standards for their respective sports.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon. I had 27 FNP dudes. No help at all.

"Must be a terrible BA player then."

It's been hard to gauge good BA players since the 5th ed Necron/GK codices ate our lunch.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

1) not by any sane people!

4) my point still stands - whatever it's composition, your army is more durable against that list than, say, mine or anyone I know.

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

1) not by any sane people!

4) my point still stands - whatever it's composition, your army is more durable against that list than, say, mine or anyone I know.

Perhaps durable, but not efficacious. It just means the Eldar guy gets to roll more dice before I pack up.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

No Scat bikes are not.... Leastwhys not for the majority of the pre Necron/Eldar dickery. Sadly these other codexes are that bad that you will almost never see them in action. Scatterbikes are terrible and should be nerfed but they are not a standard by which all else should be measured.

And once again, try a non Space marine army. My Guardsmen would simply cease to exist in the face of scat spam.

If you want the Tac Marine buffing then that is your opinion but dont expect the rest of us to agree with you. Tacs are far to cheap as they are and make other basic infantry weep.

**Martel732**

"My Guardsmen would simply cease to exist in the face of scat spam. "

Actually scatterbikes are considerably less efficient against guardsmen. They wound on the same number, and don't penetrate guardsmen armor. And the IG has way more return fire than standard marines.

Actually, I'd prefer at this point to just get rid of tac marines so I don't have to use them in my lists. I don't expect buffs, but I'd just like to not have to use them or scouts in forged lists.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

1) not by any sane people!

4) my point still stands - whatever it's composition, your army is more durable against that list than, say, mine or anyone I know.

Perhaps durable, but not efficacious. It just means the Eldar guy gets to roll more dice before I pack up.

Then you know why our meta has ousted the Eldar players - they never got games. It sucks, but two turns (or in your case, 4), packing up an army and going home does not make a good game.

And that is the fault of the Eldar, not a 3+ armor save.

**vipoid**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured; they are aberrations.

This.

Units like scatterbikes and WKs should be nerfed. Hard.

The game has already had more than enough escalation.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
"My Guardsmen would simply cease to exist in the face of scat spam. "

Actually scatterbikes are considerably less efficient against guardsmen. They wound on the same number, and don't penetrate guardsmen armor. And the IG has way more return fire than standard marines.

Actually, I'd prefer at this point to just get rid of tac marines so I don't have to use them in my lists. I don't expect buffs, but I'd just like to not have to use them or scouts in forged lists.

You can run a forged list without tacs or scouts using formations. But I know you will just reject this, since everything the BA have suck and are irredeemable.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
"My Guardsmen would simply cease to exist in the face of scat spam. "

Actually scatterbikes are considerably less efficient against guardsmen. They wound on the same number, and don't penetrate guardsmen armor. And the IG has way more return fire than standard marines.

Actually, I'd prefer at this point to just get rid of tac marines so I don't have to use them in my lists. I don't expect buffs, but I'd just like to not have to use them or scouts in forged lists.

Argh do you listen to no one?

Okay I will make this simple for you:

Guardsman shooting is terrible. For each Marine you have I have 2.8 Guardsmen. And it takes 5 to 7 Guardsmen to put the same kill power downrange as one basic Tactical marine. Quit whining, you have more than enough durability with those Tacs, its the Eldar scatbikes that are the issue.

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

1) not by any sane people!

4) my point still stands - whatever it's composition, your army is more durable against that list than, say, mine or anyone I know.

Perhaps durable, but not efficacious. It just means the Eldar guy gets to roll more dice before I pack up.

Then you know why our meta has ousted the Eldar players - they never got games. It sucks, but two turns (or in your case, 4), packing up an army and going home does not make a good game.

And that is the fault of the Eldar, not a 3+ armor save.

It's the fault that my marines can't return meaningful fire to T4 3+ units at 36" range. Imperial heavy weapons are poorly deployed on poor platform. Eldar heavy weapons are on amazingly efficient platforms. Why do you think you see so many grav cents? It's a) a good weapon on b) a good platform. This whole cocktail of suck is why tacs are useless, you can't just look at the armor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"My Guardsmen would simply cease to exist in the face of scat spam. "

Actually scatterbikes are considerably less efficient against guardsmen. They wound on the same number, and don't penetrate guardsmen armor. And the IG has way more return fire than standard marines.

Actually, I'd prefer at this point to just get rid of tac marines so I don't have to use them in my lists. I don't expect buffs, but I'd just like to not have to use them or scouts in forged lists.

Argh do you listen to no one?

Okay I will make this simple for you:

Guardsman shooting is terrible. For each Marine you have I have 2.8 Guardsmen. And it takes 5 to 7 Guardsmen to put the same kill power downrange as one basic Tactical marine. Quit whining, you have more than enough durability with those Tacs, its the Eldar scatbikes that are the issue.

Guardsmen are mediocre, but their tanks and support systems are not. Marine tanks and support systems for the most part are poor. That's the difference. Your guardsmen don't HAVE to carry the day. By the time I'm to the guardsmen, my squads are crippled. Why do you think so many use the drop pod crutch?

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

1) not by any sane people!

4) my point still stands - whatever it's composition, your army is more durable against that list than, say, mine or anyone I know.

Perhaps durable, but not efficacious. It just means the Eldar guy gets to roll more dice before I pack up.

Then you know why our meta has ousted the Eldar players - they never got games. It sucks, but two turns (or in your case, 4), packing up an army and going home does not make a good game.

And that is the fault of the Eldar, not a 3+ armor save.

It's the fault that my marines can't return meaningful fire to T4 3+ units at 36" range. Imperial heavy weapons are poorly deployed on poor platform. Eldar heavy weapons are on amazingly efficient platforms. Why do you think you see so many grav cents? It's a) a good weapon on b) a good platform. This whole cocktail of suck is why tacs are useless, you can't just look at the armor.

No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3.

**Martel732**

"No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3."

Lists that can do damage back to them will fare a lot better, I assure you. See: Skyhammer. What can tac marines do? Die. Tau are a similar situation. Tac marines can't do significant damage to Tau lists without a drop pod.

**master of ordinance**

And Martel, our Tanks are the only things even close to being worth the points cost in our entire codex. And even then that is debatable as the Battle tank, Eradicator and Demolisher are most certainly not worth the massive amount of points that they cost.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"1) Scatbikes and WK are not the standard by which all others should be measured"

Actually, they kinda are.

"Be happy you don't play literally anything else - lasting till turn 4 against that army is evidence for the durability of tactical marines!"

My list only had 10 of them. That and a couple of walls saved my bacon.

1) not by any sane people!

4) my point still stands - whatever it's composition, your army is more durable against that list than, say, mine or anyone I know.

Perhaps durable, but not efficacious. It just means the Eldar guy gets to roll more dice before I pack up.

Then you know why our meta has ousted the Eldar players - they never got games. It sucks, but two turns (or in your case, 4), packing up an army and going home does not make a good game.

And that is the fault of the Eldar, not a 3+ armor save.

It's the fault that my marines can't return meaningful fire to T4 3+ units at 36" range. Imperial heavy weapons are poorly deployed on poor platform. Eldar heavy weapons are on amazingly efficient platforms. Why do you think you see so many grav cents? It's a) a good weapon on b) a good platform. This whole cocktail of suck is why tacs are useless, you can't just look at the armor.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"My Guardsmen would simply cease to exist in the face of scat spam. "

Actually scatterbikes are considerably less efficient against guardsmen. They wound on the same number, and don't penetrate guardsmen armor. And the IG has way more return fire than standard marines.

Actually, I'd prefer at this point to just get rid of tac marines so I don't have to use them in my lists. I don't expect buffs, but I'd just like to not have to use them or scouts in forged lists.

Argh do you listen to no one?

Okay I will make this simple for you:

Guardsman shooting is terrible. For each Marine you have I have 2.8 Guardsmen. And it takes 5 to 7 Guardsmen to put the same kill power downrange as one basic Tactical marine. Quit whining, you have more than enough durability with those Tacs, its the Eldar scatbikes that are the issue.

Guardsmen are mediocre, but their tanks and support systems are not. Marine tanks and support systems for the most part are poor. That's the difference. Your guardsmen don't HAVE to carry the day. By the time I'm to the guardsmen, my squads are crippled. Why do you think so many use the drop pod crutch?

Do you think that any troops choice in the game is good against scat bikes? Leman Russ tank squadrons certainly aren't, and they fit the bill of what you are asking for to a T.

Hell, even throw on 30k - are there any troops in the whole of ever that can compete with scatbikes?