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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:14:48
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Martel732 wrote:"No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3."
Lists that can do damage back to them will fare a lot better, I assure you. See: Skyhammer. What can tac marines do? Die.
Dig in. Go to round and stay out of his LOS. Force him to close with you. Use APC's and Droppods.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:15:29
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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master of ordinance wrote:And Martel, our Tanks are the only things even close to being worth the points cost in our entire codex. And even then that is debatable as the Battle tank, Eradicator and Demolisher are most certainly not worth the massive amount of points that they cost.
The IG is certainly one of the weaker codices. But that's mostly because of bad vehicle rules and bad pricing for the IG specifically. The game favors MCs over vehicles so much right now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:15:35
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Confessor Of Sins
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master of ordinance wrote:
If you want the Tac Marine buffing then that is your opinion but dont expect the rest of us to agree with you. Tacs are far to cheap as they are and make other basic infantry weep.
My SoB basic troops at least cry at seeing how much better regular Marines are at only +3 points or so. But then again, I do get a free 6+ inv save (which is more an insult than any help) and Adamantium Will which actually does help if an opponent brings psykers. And my weapons list is smaller too. Flamer or Meltagun for special weapon (no, I don't count Storm Bolters) and Multi-melta, Heavy Flamer or Heavy Bolter for "heavy" gun. The Hflamer is the only cost-effective option and that requires you to get right up in their faces - and ofc, I have only Rhinos and Immolators for that, no Drop Pods. Imagine my Heavy Support Retributors with 4 Hflamers in a Drop Pod...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:16:23
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote:"No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3."
Lists that can do damage back to them will fare a lot better, I assure you. See: Skyhammer. What can tac marines do? Die.
Dig in. Go to round and stay out of his LOS. Force him to close with you. Use APC's and Droppods.
Let him close with his WK? Sounds like a masterful plan. Hiding from a 36" weapon on a 12" mover is much easier said than done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:16:49
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Fixture of Dakka
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So you don't field many tacs at all, and you lose, therefore tacs suck?
I'm not saying more tacs will help you - they won't in your meta, especially for youyou - but that is just a terrible argument.
There are many ways to not field Marines if you don't want to.
I don't tthink anyone here thinks Tacs are broken beyond everything else in the game. And, as that is what you require from a unit for it to "not suck", then of course Tac marines don't meet that criteria.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:18:04
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Bharring wrote:So you don't field many tacs at all, and you lose, therefore tacs suck?
I'm not saying more tacs will help you - they won't in your meta, especially for youyou - but that is just a terrible argument.
There are many ways to not field Marines if you don't want to.
I don't tthink anyone here thinks Tacs are broken beyond everything else in the game. And, as that is what you require from a unit for it to "not suck", then of course Tac marines don't meet that criteria.
Are you being purposefully obtuse? I don't field them because they suck. Not vice versa. I think you could have figured that out from my posts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:19:10
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote:It's the fault that my marines can't return meaningful fire to T4 3+ units at 36" range. Imperial heavy weapons are poorly deployed on poor platform. Eldar heavy weapons are on amazingly efficient platforms. Why do you think you see so many grav cents? It's a) a good weapon on b) a good platform. This whole cocktail of suck is why tacs are useless, you can't just look at the armor.
Do you think that any troops choice in the game is good against scat bikes? Leman Russ tank squadrons certainly aren't, and they fit the bill of what you are asking for to a T.
Hell, even throw on 30k - are there any troops in the whole of ever that can compete with scatbikes?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:21:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:19:41
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Bharring wrote:Really? Let's see.
Against GEQ.
DAs do:
Less than CSM at 18-24" (can't shoot).
Double CSM at 12-18" (both S4 AP5, but assault 2.
Exactly as much damage as CSM at 0-12".
33% less than CSM in CC.
Let's be real, neither unit is going to want to hit CC. If they do, only DA will be able to considering their transport options.
Also, you neglected to mention battle focus. So really, you can shoot twice at 18+ d6 versus 2 shots at 12 and 1 shoot at 24. More than 50% of the range, DA's will get 2x as many shots as Marines do.
Bharring wrote:
So, if it takes X rounds for CSM to make back their points, unless you're in a very specific 6" range, CSM are as good or better. In some cases, incomparably better.
For the reasons I stated above, this isn't true. It's unreal to suggest that marines will get 4 rounds at 12". Games only last 5-7 rounds, most of the time.
DA, with their increased double tap range and better transports, can get 4 rounds in cover.
Also, with upgrades, marines end up spending more on the squad then DA do unless we count transports. The WS is so good I don't consider this a bad thing.
Bharring wrote:
So a naked CSM kills 2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) Guardsmen assuming 5+ cover. That's 16/27.
Right. You're assuming rapid fire here, which is harder to get for marines than for eldar, but okay.
Bharring wrote:
13 ( CSM/ DA) = (16/27)(5)(t)
T= 4.3 rounds for CSM or DA to make their points back shooting Guardsmen
Right here too. The difference is, and what you're neglecting to mention. is that is is 4 rounds of rapid fire. Marines will never get this, Eldar might.
Bharring wrote:
13 = (16/27)(9)(t) Guardians
T = 2.4 rounds. Much better. But still the same for both CSM and DAs.
And those are naked CSM.
Which is, arguably, the better set up for your demonstration. But its not realistic unless list tailoring. A plasma gun adds little, but costing +15, 2 of them increase the cost of the squad by 3ppm. The champ makes it worse.
This makes it 4.3 versus closer to 5, and 2.4 closer to 3, to give you an idea.
Bharring wrote:
(An Exarch, for shooting, is 10pts for a +25% chance to hit. When looking at shooting, its effects are minimal.)
I think we both know no one takes the dire avenger exarch for shooting. Defensively he adds a lot.
Finally, the numbers for killing Termies:
Assuming 5 CSM with 2 PG:
2x2x(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 40/27
3x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = 1/3
= 49/27 dead Termies/round
Assuming 7 DAs to match cost:
7x2x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 28/27 AP2 kills
7x2x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = 14/27 ap5 kills
= 42/27 kills
Unless my math is off, doesn't that make Plasma CSM squads *better* at killing Termies?
Compare 10 CSM with 2 plasma guns versus 12 DAs to make them equivalent. You'll find the DAs do better. I'm pretty sure you can't take a 2nd special weapon at 5 guys, its 10.
Bharring wrote:
Not sure if CSM can take the 2nd PG below 10, but alternately that could be a CombiPlas on the Sarge instead.
Again, you can't, so your math is wrong.
Which makes the squad even more expensive for 2 shots at rapid fire, or 1 shot at 24.
And, for chaos, you must challenge. Most people don't take upgrades on their champs due to this.
Regular marines only take combies in squads that expect to drop in and die, since you know you'll get the rapid fire.
Bharring wrote:
To add insult to injury, DAs die *twice* as fast to Boltgun shots as CSM.
...at under 12", they die faster sure. The DA player doesn't have to let the CSM player get that close until he's inflicted 1 or 2 rounds of shooting, destroying the unit.
Bharring wrote:
further, they get destroyed in CC by almost anything, whereas CSM beat most units in CC.
No...no they don't. Any unit that wants to be in CC destroys marines, unless grey hunters, and they are too slow to start combat.
The exarch can let them overwatch at BS 2, which helps, and DA can fire and then assault if they want. Marines can only use pistols.
Bharring wrote:
Finally, DA firepower goes down in exact proportion with losses. Plas-toting CSM, though, keep the bulk of their firepower (plasma guns) until the last few models die.
You can turn this around and say precision shots, or shots against the squad that happen to remove a plas toting marine, removes a lot more.
Every DA I kill is 14 points. If I drop a plasma guy, it's 29 points. Its even worse if its a sarge with a combi, as you suggesting taking.
This is why no one takes Icons, btw
Bharring wrote:
So CSM do put out about the firepower DAs do. While being much, much more survivable. So they certainly aren't paying through the nose for that 3+.
You have yet to prove that CSM equal DA's on anything but GEQs.
And even then, the marines must find themselves within 12", while the DA's must be within 18+d6. Against heavier targets, DAs pull ahead.
So no. You're wrong.
Bharring wrote:
Why are Cultists taken over CSM when the player needs a blob to sit in the backfield? Because Cultist are a GEQ blob, and priced that way. First, not all GEQs are blob-priced. Secondly, the role you're describing calls for cheapos, not elites. So of course using the elite for that role isn't the best idea.
I'm not the one who suggested you take them to hold objectives. That was suggested by another person, and its an absurdly bad idea. Which I did show.
Furthermore, I'm going to have to ask that you use less misleading statements.
Suggesting PG's can be taken in better ratios (twice as many, or 100% better) was extremely misleading.
Failing to mention that 2 shot range for DA's is over 50% further makes them a lot better at killing GEQ and nearly everything else you can think of.
CSM are not equal against any target but GEQ ( and even then, you took them naked to help your point. Nobody takes them naked. Throw in the 2 more DAs that the plasma guns cost, and DAs win again).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:21:16
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Can vanilla marines still make bikes troops? Maybe those.
My point with tacs is that other lists have cheaper units to accomplish nothing and fill mandatory slots.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:22:30
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote:Can vanilla marines still make bikes troops? Maybe those.
My point with tacs is that other lists have cheaper units to accomplish nothing and fill mandatory slots.
With the current method of listbuilding 40k, there is no such thing as mandatory slots. There are slots that you have to fill to get certain army bonuses (most commonly Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured) but they are by no means mandatory. That is quite clear in the rulebook.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:23:14
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Martel732 wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote:"No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3."
Lists that can do damage back to them will fare a lot better, I assure you. See: Skyhammer. What can tac marines do? Die.
Dig in. Go to round and stay out of his LOS. Force him to close with you. Use APC's and Droppods.
Let him close with his WK? Sounds like a masterful plan. Hiding from a 36" weapon on a 12" mover is much easier said than done.
Get him within Bolter range and then ambush him.
I once defeated a 3K Marine army with 1.5K of Guard (my opponent was cheating). How did I do this? By using my knowledge of tactics. I created overlapping fields of fire, choke points, dead ground, killzones and made it a nightmare for him to get close. Large blobs where blitzed by Battletanks and my Thunderer and then mopped up by the Exterminators and Infantry. Even though he had laid the terrain out I was able to force him to play to my tune and I won, even though he brought a Primarch to the field.
Its how you have to play. Dont hang about where he can see you, hide behind terrain, vehicles, wrecks, etc. Make him come to you and enter your range. Then choose a target and throw everything at it. Blitz it and kill it. Keep this up.
If you are hanging around within his LOS then he WILL win as you are playing straight into his hands.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:23:53
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:Can vanilla marines still make bikes troops? Maybe those.
My point with tacs is that other lists have cheaper units to accomplish nothing and fill mandatory slots.
With the current method of listbuilding 40k, there is no such thing as mandatory slots. There are slots that you have to fill to get certain army bonuses (most commonly Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured) but they are by no means mandatory. That is quite clear in the rulebook.
Mandatory for battle forged. Obj secured helps a lot against less extreme lists, for when I get to play those.
"Dont hang about where he can see you, hide behind terrain,"
The majority of terrain I play with provides cover, but does not block LOS. Additionally, there is a "rolling steppe" on our terrain generator with basically no cover.
" Make him come to you and enter your range"
The bikes never will. The WK sure will, though.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:25:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:25:26
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:Can vanilla marines still make bikes troops? Maybe those.
My point with tacs is that other lists have cheaper units to accomplish nothing and fill mandatory slots.
With the current method of listbuilding 40k, there is no such thing as mandatory slots. There are slots that you have to fill to get certain army bonuses (most commonly Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured) but they are by no means mandatory. That is quite clear in the rulebook.
Mandatory for battle forged. Obj secured helps a lot against less extreme lists, for when I get to play those.
"Dont hang about where he can see you, hide behind terrain,"
The majority of terrain I play with provides cover, but does not block LOS.
Then invest points in big fortifications. Bring vehicles and use them to block LOS.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:26:07
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Fortifications for BA? Okay. Look, I've tried all this except fortifications. Eldar can move around the wrecks easily. Even against static lists, all it does is pin my guys behind my own wrecks.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:27:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:26:43
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote:"No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3."
Lists that can do damage back to them will fare a lot better, I assure you. See: Skyhammer. What can tac marines do? Die.
Dig in. Go to round and stay out of his LOS. Force him to close with you. Use APC's and Droppods.
Let him close with his WK? Sounds like a masterful plan. Hiding from a 36" weapon on a 12" mover is much easier said than done.
Get him within Bolter range and then ambush him.
I once defeated a 3K Marine army with 1.5K of Guard (my opponent was cheating). How did I do this? By using my knowledge of tactics. I created overlapping fields of fire, choke points, dead ground, killzones and made it a nightmare for him to get close. Large blobs where blitzed by Battletanks and my Thunderer and then mopped up by the Exterminators and Infantry. Even though he had laid the terrain out I was able to force him to play to my tune and I won, even though he brought a Primarch to the field.
Its how you have to play. Dont hang about where he can see you, hide behind terrain, vehicles, wrecks, etc. Make him come to you and enter your range. Then choose a target and throw everything at it. Blitz it and kill it. Keep this up.
If you are hanging around within his LOS then he WILL win as you are playing straight into his hands.
If you defeated twice your points in marines, doesn't this suggest tacticals are garbage?
Or did he not take any tacticals?
The last time I defeated twice my points in anything, I was playing eldar
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:29:32
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Akiasura wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote:"No, it is because Eldar are simply too good and Scatbikes are stupidly over powered to the point that they can and will table ANY army - not just Marines - by turn 2 to 3."
Lists that can do damage back to them will fare a lot better, I assure you. See: Skyhammer. What can tac marines do? Die.
Dig in. Go to round and stay out of his LOS. Force him to close with you. Use APC's and Droppods.
Let him close with his WK? Sounds like a masterful plan. Hiding from a 36" weapon on a 12" mover is much easier said than done.
Get him within Bolter range and then ambush him.
I once defeated a 3K Marine army with 1.5K of Guard (my opponent was cheating). How did I do this? By using my knowledge of tactics. I created overlapping fields of fire, choke points, dead ground, killzones and made it a nightmare for him to get close. Large blobs where blitzed by Battletanks and my Thunderer and then mopped up by the Exterminators and Infantry. Even though he had laid the terrain out I was able to force him to play to my tune and I won, even though he brought a Primarch to the field.
Its how you have to play. Dont hang about where he can see you, hide behind terrain, vehicles, wrecks, etc. Make him come to you and enter your range. Then choose a target and throw everything at it. Blitz it and kill it. Keep this up.
If you are hanging around within his LOS then he WILL win as you are playing straight into his hands.
If you defeated twice your points in marines, doesn't this suggest tacticals are garbage?
Or did he not take any tacticals?
The last time I defeated twice my points in anything, I was playing eldar
Oh he had Tacs, 30 of them. And Scouts and 5 Librarians and a Vindicator Linebreaker and a Primarch and 2 LotD squads and a Dev squad and 2 Rhinos and a Razorback and a Vindicare and Telion and 9 Sniper Scouts and 5 Assault Marines and an honour guard squad. I murdered them all.
And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:29:32
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.
"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."
Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:33:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:34:33
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Fixture of Dakka
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-I wasn't sure if CSM could take 2 at 5 or 10. Its good to know, but they could take a CombiPlas instead. I even went so far to *explicitly state that*.
-Battle Focusing towards is always an option. But leaves you in assault threat range. As it takes only 3 CSM to make it into CC to beat 10DAs, I'd say that's a scary proposition. Usually they need to BF away.
-If I threw in 2 more DAs, I'd have to redo the numbers for the CSM to account for the PGs. Not a huge difference against GEQ, but I was more familiar with the numbers as is.
In another thread a while back, I showed that, for equal points of DAs and CSM, assuming 5+ cover, and everything else in CSM favor (stay out of Rapid Fire, no Assault, infinite space, etc), the DAs need 10 turns to push the CSM. If you can't win in 10 turns in a 5-7 turn game, something is wrong.
DAs do have better firepower in some situations. Having half the defenses for the same points means they should.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:35:38
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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"Having half the defenses for the same points means they should."
It's better than half in most situations. Quit being misleading. The reality is that DA are sweeping up whatever the Warp Spiders left alive. You can't compare in a vacuum.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:36:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:36:56
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:38:15
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Martel732 wrote:Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.
"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."
Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.
Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:38:43
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.
"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"
I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:38:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:39:00
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Have an Exalt for pretty much summing up what many have been trying to tell him.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:39:48
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote:Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.
"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."
Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.
Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.
I just don't understand your logic. Why do you fear them more than two squads of LotD when you have 5+ armor on your dudes? Why do you fear Vindicators? They are generally awful and get aced on their side armor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:39:54
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.
"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"
I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.
Bikers are not troops. Just play unbound though. That way you can have an army entirely composed of whatever you want.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:41:18
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.
"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"
I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.
Bikers are not troops. Just play unbound though. That way you can have an army entirely composed of whatever you want.
I've considered that. My meta does not normally allow unbound, and even if it did, is another DC squad over a couple of tacs going to save me? Probably not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:41:28
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.
"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"
I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.
One formation requires troops - you don't even need to have formations; hell, you need not even be battleforged!
And marines can still make bikers troops, but they won't catch the scatbikes - the scatbikes outrange them by literally twice as much, out-turbo-boost them by two feet, and have an assault jump of 2d6". Why would grav bikers be in any better position to handle them than regular bikers, or plasma bikers, or Imperial Guardsmen? Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.
"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"
I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.
Bikers are not troops. Just play unbound though. That way you can have an army entirely composed of whatever you want.
I've considered that. My meta does not normally allow unbound, and even if it did, is another DC squad over a couple of tacs going to save me? Probably not.
Wait so your meta allows 2x wraithknight Eldar with 25 scatbikes, but not unbound?
Your place is literally hell.
Also, perhaps the problem is Eldar, rather than tactical marines, if not taking tactical marines at all isn't the solution!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/07 19:42:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:42:49
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.
1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?
2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.
That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.
Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.
"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"
I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.
One formation requires troops - you don't even need to have formations; hell, you need not even be battleforged!
And marines can still make bikers troops, but they won't catch the scatbikes - the scatbikes outrange them by literally twice as much, out-turbo-boost them by two feet, and have an assault jump of 2d6". Why would grav bikers be in any better position to handle them than regular bikers, or plasma bikers, or Imperial Guardsmen?
Just brainstorming. In general, there are certainly no troops that match up to scatterbikes. Therefore, I'd prefer to pay as little for my troops as possible since none of them are really up to snuff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:42:59
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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Martel732 wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Martel732 wrote:Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.
"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."
Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.
Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.
I just don't understand your logic. Why do you fear them more than two squads of LotD when you have 5+ armor on your dudes? Why do you fear Vindicators? They are generally awful and get aced on their side armor.
Vindicators in a Linebreaker. a 10" pieplate that ignores cover. It cost me a lot of Infantry.
The LotD I didnt know about until they hit but they where only in small 5 man sections and died to amassed fire within a couple of turns. The Tac sections though where mobile. They could and would rape my army if they got close. Sure they dont ignore my Cover save.... But there are more of them and they can bolter to death my Veteran sections within a turn and Krak my tanks into the abyss.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/07 19:44:15
Subject: usefulness of a 3+ save.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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" if not taking tactical marines at all isn't the solution!"
I did explain up above how its just not tac marines. Assault marines, dev marines are also both crap in 7th. The base marine and all its derivatives are just inferior to things like Grav cents and scatter bikes.
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