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2015/08/06 03:40:09
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Dammit, I didn't think the US government was that fethed up back then. I thought that it started some time during the Cold War :(
War is always difficult.
Though after doing a bit of digging, that site may not be the most reliable source.
Apparently the site is pretty notorious for Holocaust denial.
So I would warn that it is highly likely to be unreliable.
After digging I haven't found anywhere else that corroborates much of what is claimed.
Yea looking around I can't find much either. Chances are the original story is true. The choice between nuking them or invading them. I do remember though watching a documentary about it, and seem to remember a situation where the Emperor was about to surrender but militarists attacked the palace and prevented it or something.
Here, so after the bombs went off there was an attempt to stop the Emperor surrendering, however no evidence for before the bombs. However they did try talk to the soviets about a surrender but nothing of substance came from that. Certainly no discussions.
Actually, brainwashing was precisely what was going on in Imperial Japan. It's a kind of brainwashing known as "societal brainwashing", or "cultural conditioning". Basically, the simple act of living in that culture brainwashes you to its beliefs, no matter what society or culture that you live in. If you live in a militaristic and honor-obsessive culture, then you will become far more militaristic and honor-obsessive than if you lived in a liberal, free-market economy that values personal freedoms and rights more than honesty and virtue.
Ok... so by that logic we are all brain washed because we take on the norms of our respected countries... so in other words they aren't brain washed they are simply following the trends of their country?
Come on dude, there was no massive brain washing program turning people into nut jobs. They may have been nationalistic but that does not = brain washed.
It's an established facet of our psychology. If something is told to you enough times, you come to believe it. If you are told enough times that surrender is a terrible, terrible, dishonorable thing to do, then you will come to hate surrender. I don't exactly have access to my personal book collection right now, but, I'll try to cite this as soon as I get home.
Ok firstly normal people likely did not get told this, the army did as part of their training yes. But that is no different from Stalins "Not one step back" or Hitlers "Defend every inch of land" etc.
Again yes technically... it is brainwashing. But so is me being taught math (1+1=2 is technically brain washed into my head). I mean you can hardly use "brainwashing" as an excuse for something. The person who used the term brainwashing was clearly trying to paint the people in question under a negative light to justify the bombs. They where no more or less brainwashed than anyone else. Because your definition of brainwashing is simply a cause of existing in a group.
2015/08/06 03:45:55
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Dammit, I didn't think the US government was that fethed up back then. I thought that it started some time during the Cold War :(
War is always difficult.
Though after doing a bit of digging, that site may not be the most reliable source.
Apparently the site is pretty notorious for Holocaust denial.
So I would warn that it is highly likely to be unreliable.
After digging I haven't found anywhere else that corroborates much of what is claimed.
Yea looking around I can't find much either. Chances are the original story is true. The choice between nuking them or invading them. I do remember though watching a documentary about it, and seem to remember a situation where the Emperor was about to surrender but militarists attacked the palace and prevented it or something.
Here, so after the bombs went off there was an attempt to stop the Emperor surrendering, however no evidence for before the bombs. However they did try talk to the soviets about a surrender but nothing of substance came from that. Certainly no discussions.
Actually, brainwashing was precisely what was going on in Imperial Japan. It's a kind of brainwashing known as "societal brainwashing", or "cultural conditioning". Basically, the simple act of living in that culture brainwashes you to its beliefs, no matter what society or culture that you live in. If you live in a militaristic and honor-obsessive culture, then you will become far more militaristic and honor-obsessive than if you lived in a liberal, free-market economy that values personal freedoms and rights more than honesty and virtue.
Ok... so by that logic we are all brain washed because we take on the norms of our respected countries... so in other words they aren't brain washed they are simply following the trends of their country?
Come on dude, there was no massive brain washing program turning people into nut jobs. They may have been nationalistic but that does not = brain washed.
It's an established facet of our psychology. If something is told to you enough times, you come to believe it. If you are told enough times that surrender is a terrible, terrible, dishonorable thing to do, then you will come to hate surrender. I don't exactly have access to my personal book collection right now, but, I'll try to cite this as soon as I get home.
Ok firstly normal people likely did not get told this, the army did as part of their training yes. But that is no different from Stalins "Not one step back" or Hitlers "Defend every inch of land" etc.
Again yes technically... it is brainwashing. But so is me being taught math (1+1=2 is technically brain washed into my head). I mean you can hardly use "brainwashing" as an excuse for something. The person who used the term brainwashing was clearly trying to paint the people in question under a negative light to justify the bombs. They where no more or less brainwashed than anyone else. Because your definition of brainwashing is simply a cause of existing in a group.
Dammit, I didn't think the US government was that fethed up back then. I thought that it started some time during the Cold War :(
War is always difficult.
Though after doing a bit of digging, that site may not be the most reliable source.
Apparently the site is pretty notorious for Holocaust denial.
So I would warn that it is highly likely to be unreliable.
After digging I haven't found anywhere else that corroborates much of what is claimed.
Yea looking around I can't find much either. Chances are the original story is true. The choice between nuking them or invading them. I do remember though watching a documentary about it, and seem to remember a situation where the Emperor was about to surrender but militarists attacked the palace and prevented it or something.
Here, so after the bombs went off there was an attempt to stop the Emperor surrendering, however no evidence for before the bombs. However they did try talk to the soviets about a surrender but nothing of substance came from that. Certainly no discussions.
Actually, brainwashing was precisely what was going on in Imperial Japan. It's a kind of brainwashing known as "societal brainwashing", or "cultural conditioning". Basically, the simple act of living in that culture brainwashes you to its beliefs, no matter what society or culture that you live in. If you live in a militaristic and honor-obsessive culture, then you will become far more militaristic and honor-obsessive than if you lived in a liberal, free-market economy that values personal freedoms and rights more than honesty and virtue.
Ok... so by that logic we are all brain washed because we take on the norms of our respected countries... so in other words they aren't brain washed they are simply following the trends of their country?
Come on dude, there was no massive brain washing program turning people into nut jobs. They may have been nationalistic but that does not = brain washed.
It's an established facet of our psychology. If something is told to you enough times, you come to believe it. If you are told enough times that surrender is a terrible, terrible, dishonorable thing to do, then you will come to hate surrender. I don't exactly have access to my personal book collection right now, but, I'll try to cite this as soon as I get home.
Ok firstly normal people likely did not get told this, the army did as part of their training yes. But that is no different from Stalins "Not one step back" or Hitlers "Defend every inch of land" etc.
Again yes technically... it is brainwashing. But so is me being taught math (1+1=2 is technically brain washed into my head). I mean you can hardly use "brainwashing" as an excuse for something. The person who used the term brainwashing was clearly trying to paint the people in question under a negative light to justify the bombs. They where no more or less brainwashed than anyone else. Because your definition of brainwashing is simply a cause of existing in a group.
Basically, the Nazi propaganda minister, Urwin Rommel, was right in his beliefs that if repeat a lie often enough, anybody will believe it.
Yep, but then how is Japan ANY different to the other nations involved? How is their "brainwashing" somehow special? American propaganda says Japanese are poor visioned (hence why they usually have spectacles in propaganda), small and buck toothed savages. Japanese Propaganda portrays Americans as weak willed violent savages.
All sides in the war withheld information from the public, all sides lied to the public, all sides did X. All sides socially conditioned. Heck it is technically impossible not to be effected by this social conditioning.
Japan is not special in this regard. While yes, repeat information to someone enough and they eventually believe/remember it. But that is simply normal for people to experience intentional or not, especially in ANY wartime.
Ultimately when people call Japan at the time brainwashed what they are saying is "I do not like the popular opinion in Japan at the time, so they mus have been brainwashed". I think ultimately you will find the average Japanese person is no different from anyone else. They more readily gave their lives, but that is likely from desperation more than social conditioning.
Going back to my original point, Japan wasn't brainwashed in some special way, they where merely normal just like anyone else at the time. As I said more ignorant if anything, but what nations citizens at the time where free of this problem? I suppose while it is technically brainwashing, I would hardly view it as anything worth considering.
I also learned I am likely very brainwashed.
2015/08/06 04:14:56
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Except these were cultural norms that were heavily distilled into their society, not something that was a recent development. Cultural values that were hundreds or thousands of years old.
So brainwashing is perfectly applicable.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Except these were cultural norms that were heavily distilled into their society, not something that was a recent development. Cultural values that were hundreds or thousands of years old.
So brainwashing is perfectly applicable.
What cultural norms?
In what way did the average Japanese person back then differ from an American at the time that can be attributed to brainwashing? Then how is it relevant to the bombs or invasion choice?
The only one thing I can think of is the belief of the emperor as a deity... but then most Americans where/are Christian so its hardly a big difference.
2015/08/06 04:33:00
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You seriously can't equate Emperor worship with Christianity.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
With a fanatical devotion to a person that includes fighting to the death to protect him. A code of death before dishonor. Fighting to the death is literally the only option besides victory. Compromise isn't in the vocabulary.
Combine this with tales of Americans being raping savage barbarians and its a recipie for disaster. If they were able to convince non-japanese to commit mass suicide what do you think their own citizens would have done? Japan was a very different place back then.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: With a fanatical devotion to a person that includes fighting to the death to protect him. A code of death before dishonor. Fighting to the death is literally the only option besides victory. Compromise isn't in the vocabulary.
Combine this with tales of Americans being raping savage barbarians and its a recipie for disaster. If they were able to convince non-japanese to commit mass suicide what do you think their own citizens would have done? Japan was a very different place back then.
Ok so soldiers did this but I think you will find it has more to do with fear and desperation over anything else. But civilians likely would not have, they did not get the same treatment that soldiers got. But what about this is unique compared to Soviets who enforced this rule of death or victory (also out of desperation) or Germany (also out of desperation) and so on. What makes Japan any different?
When Japan was fighting to the death, many soldier felt they had no choice. Disease was rampant, ammunition was short/out, fuel was gone, communication was hardly available and they thought they would die regardless. What does this mean? Well when the enemy comes they decide they need to stop them to protect their home, they know full well what occupation of Japan could mean after seeing what Happened to China or Korea before they invaded them. They where also universally starving. I am very certain this has more to do with them fighting to the death than simply being told to. After all plenty of armies tried telling people to fight to the death but there simply was not that same kind of fair Japan grew up with of foreign powers.
Propaganda is hardly a Japanese thing. ALL nations (even my little country of NZ) had propaganda which was likely full of lies.
So that is one example of questionable brain washing origins. I think you will find on an island with nowhere to run, against an army you know to be superior in all but spirit and who could turn your homeland into a puppet state like they did with many Asian countries around you it is only natural they would try do all in their power to prevent you from reaching their home. What other choice did they have?
As for the Island Natives committing suicide (I am sure it only happened on one island), that would be brain washing. I agree, but there is no evidence of this being a normal thing back in Japan. The constant military presence on the island likely had a lot to do with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/06 05:06:26
2015/08/06 05:09:33
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
It happened on far more than one island. There was one which had the worst example of it, but it was far from the only example.
The fact is its all speculation one way or the other, but the evidence was certainly there for a large scale fight to the death and/or suicide. Not everyone in Japan, but certainly a huge chunk of the population. It still would have resulted in massive death tolls if we had invaded.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: It happened on far more than one island. There was one which had the worst example of it, but it was far from the only example.
The fact is its all speculation one way or the other, but the evidence was certainly there for a large scale fight to the death and/or suicide. Not everyone in Japan, but certainly a huge chunk of the population. It still would have resulted in massive death tolls if we had invaded.
Sorry two islands. Saipan and Okinawa.
No it would likely have not.
By your logic if they where so brain washed there would have been massed suicides all over the country since defeat was not an option. Outside of Military commanders I don't recall much suicide.
It is likely there was strong support for the war, but I think you will find few would fight to the death in numbers like we saw in the Pacific. Look at Manchuria, most of the army there was captured (no massed fighting to the death etc). Wikipedia tells me 640,000 captured by soviets while only 84,000 killed. The situations in the Pacific where vastly different to that of mainland Asia and I am certain that it contributed to a much higher surrender rate than we see on the Islands. Hardly the brainwashed to the death army.
Likely mainland Japan would have been the same, but mainland Japan had civilians and frankly by the time the Russians and Americans invade (Russians already technically invaded the other half of the joint island Japan and Russia shred) everyone would know it is over. Japan was already seeking peace (in its own favour) and I doubt it would have taken much more to finish it off.
I disagree anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/06 05:24:53
2015/08/06 05:23:52
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Yep, but then how is Japan ANY different to the other nations involved? How is their "brainwashing" somehow special? American propaganda says Japanese are poor visioned (hence why they usually have spectacles in propaganda), small and buck toothed savages. Japanese Propaganda portrays Americans as weak willed violent savages.
All sides in the war withheld information from the public, all sides lied to the public, all sides did X. All sides socially conditioned. Heck it is technically impossible not to be effected by this social conditioning.
Japan is not special in this regard. While yes, repeat information to someone enough and they eventually believe/remember it. But that is simply normal for people to experience intentional or not, especially in ANY wartime.
Ultimately when people call Japan at the time brainwashed what they are saying is "I do not like the popular opinion in Japan at the time, so they mus have been brainwashed". I think ultimately you will find the average Japanese person is no different from anyone else. They more readily gave their lives, but that is likely from desperation more than social conditioning.
Going back to my original point, Japan wasn't brainwashed in some special way, they where merely normal just like anyone else at the time. As I said more ignorant if anything, but what nations citizens at the time where free of this problem? I suppose while it is technically brainwashing, I would hardly view it as anything worth considering.
I also learned I am likely very brainwashed.
Well,"normal" is kind of subjective. Japan's "normal" just so happens to have been more fanatically loyal and worshipful to a single being, whereas pretty much everybody else worships a being who lives in another dimension.
Also, don't take the brainwashing too hard, we all fall victims to it - heck, even a TV advertisement is a form of brainwashing, albeit a lesser one.
Also, have I mentioned that the coding for this site can be very frustrating?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/08/06 05:29:58
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2015/08/06 09:56:45
Subject: Re:Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Well, the bombs were dropped and we found out how destructive and horrible they really were, but it was preferable to a ground invasion. I mean, the Eastern Front should be a nice example of what happens when you let your soldiers run about in cities: things story, men beaten and women raped. Hell, we fell into a vicious cycle in the Pacific with Japanese prisoners, something that was unfortunate and nasty and perpetuated by their ideals of no surrendering. There's a lot of armchair generals and moral high horses to be found when you broach this topic, but I believe it was a necessary thing to do in order to ensure compliance and, theory wise, to try and intimidate the Soviet Union.
But Japan has always denied or neglect to mention their own war crimes during that time period, as do the detractors of the atomic bombings. Sure, American did some bad things, as did most anybody else -- but god forbid Japan be mentioned too?
I am ready for your rage.
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When beset by doubt,
Run in little circles,
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2015/08/06 10:03:21
Subject: Re:Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
The Airman wrote: But Japan has always denied or neglect to mention their own war crimes during that time period, as do the detractors of the atomic bombings. Sure, American did some bad things, as did most anybody else -- but god forbid Japan be mentioned too?
Whataboutism is usually a Russian speciality, but you're well on your way to mastering the art.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2015/08/06 11:08:58
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
You are assuming the Emperor will not give up though. Why would the emperor give up at Nukes but not at an Invasion on many fronts?
[Removed as found to be unreliable.]
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Because an invasion is expected and not something beyond comprehension. Nukes were something alien. No honorable fight to the death or suicide. Only fire and suffering with no option to strike back with your dying breath.
Japan had already been totally ruined by conventional bombing. All the Nuke did was condense that into a single bomb.
It was completely unnecessary.
If it were unnecessary the Japanese would have already surrendered.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/08/06 13:05:10
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Ok... so by that logic we are all brain washed because we take on the norms of our respected countries... so in other words they aren't brain washed they are simply following the trends of their country?
Come on dude, there was no massive brain washing program turning people into nut jobs. They may have been nationalistic but that does not = brain washed.
Ok firstly normal people likely did not get told this, the army did as part of their training yes. But that is no different from Stalins "Not one step back" or Hitlers "Defend every inch of land" etc.
Again yes technically... it is brainwashing. But so is me being taught math (1+1=2 is technically brain washed into my head). I mean you can hardly use "brainwashing" as an excuse for something. The person who used the term brainwashing was clearly trying to paint the people in question under a negative light to justify the bombs. They where no more or less brainwashed than anyone else. Because your definition of brainwashing is simply a cause of existing in a group.
Comparing Japan with two countries that are renowned as being entirely brainwashed by propaganda at the time does not give you a particularly strong argument. I also think that you are misusing the term desperation in your later points. Certain Russians, Germans, Japanese were desperate but there was a pre-existing culture that caused them to behave differently. The atrocities of the Eastern Front were incomparably worse than the Western Front, at least until the Rhine was crossed, and equally Japanese barbarity in the Pacific was of orders of magnitude worse than the Allies. It is brainwashing that accounts for this as they were utterly fanatical. Yes this happened to a greater extent but they were broad cultural values of racial superiority, excessive nationalism and a quasi-bushido code.
And regardless of the existence of brainwashing there was fear among military planners that the population would resist strongly and that this would have led to mass casualties on both sides. The motivations of the bombing could therefore have been partly due to a desire to limit casualties and engaging in hypothetical counter-factual debate cannot demonstrate that there would not have been serious resistance.
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2015/08/06 13:50:07
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Frazzled wrote: If it were unnecessary the Japanese would have already surrendered.
True, but they had already offered to start peace talks after being driven back home. The US wanted unconditional surrender and saw the nukes as the best way to achieve that. A crushing victory instead of letting the enemy remain beaten but unconquered.
Still, as horrible as those bombs were they did also show people that they were, well, horrible. They're probably a very large part of the reasons for people not using nukes later, for example in Korea. That would have become a very large and nasty show if people started throwing nukes around.
2015/08/06 16:55:16
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Frazzled wrote: If it were unnecessary the Japanese would have already surrendered.
True, but they had already offered to start peace talks after being driven back home.
And they wanted to keep their conquered territories.
Feeling out a third party is a joke excuse by apologists to say "look see, they were trying to surrender, but those evil Americans were evilz and wouldn't let us."
Horse gak.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/08/06 17:42:21
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/08/06 18:03:32
Subject: Re:Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Rather than respond to two dozen odd comments, I feel it would be better to post one last time summing up my thoughts on the discussion so far. I've actually learned a few things I didn't know over the course of it, and I've found it quite interesting.
The facts as I understand them are thus:- At the time of the dropping of the two nuclear weapons, Japan had no means of fighting back against American naval/aerial attacks. Japan was extremely low on resources and food with little to no hope of replenishing them. Japanese troops did however, still occupy China, and plans were being made to dig in on the home islands. The lack of material resources made the efficacy of any defence questionable however, and the fanaticism ascribed to the Japanese military was unlikely to have extended to the entire Japanese population. Japan had also suffered severely already from extensive napalm bombing.
The Soviet invasion of Manchuria and the thrashing of Japanese forces had a great psychological impact on the civilian aspects of the Japanese government, as well as Hirohito himself (to the point where it is described as the second of the two blows that convinced him to make peace). The Japanese had been interested in negotiating some sort of surrender for the previous few months, and had attempted to get the Soviets to intercede for them before the truce was broken. There were a number of hardliners in the Japanese military who were determined to carry on fighting the good fight, as it were, regardless of the fat of the nation, but they did not possess control of the government to the extent that they'd have been able to circumvent Hirohito (as was proven when the surrender occurred and the one attempted military coup was conducted by low rankers and was stillborn).
From these facts (which are more or less indisputable), I draw the following conclusions. Firstly, that the Japanese Empire was finished. Secondly, that forcing Japan to surrender was heavily dependent on convincing Hirohito of that fact. Thirdly, the Japanese ability to resist any American or Soviet forces was non-existent at sea, crippled in Northern China, and heavily circumscribed at home.
Now American planners would have had no access to Hirohito, and would not have known how badly he took the news of the Soviet invasion. They also would not have known about the poor state of Japanese defences, and were basing their casualty estimates on Japanese defences on previous, better prepared locations. However, they would have been cognisant of the damage the nuclear weaponry was going to cause, and the limited ability of Japan to resist for any further extended period. They would also have known of the success of the Soviet operations.
In this situation, I believe that use of the nuclear bomb was premature, if you work on the basis of moral/humanitarian grounds (namely, that of vapourising hundreds of thousands of civilians). Why? Because the success of Soviet operations and the lack of capabilities of Japanese forces outside of their home islands gave everyone a breathing space in which to negotiate. If the Americans had been less insistent on complete and utter surrender (I think that it often starts as many wars as it ends), or had they been wiling to wait a further month for more Soviet successes in the field, it is possible that a surrender could have occurred without the number of casualties the bombs caused. Granted, casualties would have continued to rack up in the meantime, but those casualties are an unknown figure. It is possible Japan would have surrendered a week later than they did, or a year. In the former, it would be less casualties, in the latter it could have been just as many. It's an unknowable 'what if' of history.
But I personally, believe that the moral thing to do in that particular situation, would have been to ease off the nuclear trigger finger for a period of time, a month or so to see how the situation developed.
In geopolitical terms however, further Soviet successes, and menacing of the Japanese Home isles were diametrically opposed to American interests. The Americans wanted to keep the Soviets out of postwar Japan, and that was the reason that there was a pressure to invade 'Now, now, now!', and they were calculating casualty lists. And that, I believe, is why the bomb was dropped when it was. The Japanese calculated the Soviets could be just ten days away from homelands after they hit Manchuria, and I have no doubt American planners would have been making the same calculations. And so, the decision was made to drop the bomb for those geopolitical reasons. Not to try and spare casualties, but to speed up the Japanese surrender to American strategic advantage.
As such, the moral/humane thing to do was overruled by strategy. Was that the right or wrong thing to do? That comes down to your personal preference I suppose. Hopefully, such a call will never have to be made again though.
2015/08/06 18:08:32
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Feeling out a third party is a joke excuse by apologists to say "look see, they were trying to surrender, but those evil Americans were evilz and wouldn't let us."
They were trying to negotiate, not surrender. Or at least not unconditionally. A less determined (or capable) enemy might have let them do so. But it had been decided that the japanese should be taken out as a threat for good and the means were available. I'd even say the Japanese are now far better off than they would be if they'd been allowed to keep to their old system instead of being subject to occupation. Which doesn't make the nukes less horrible, ofc - but at the time it seemed like the only way to ensure unconditional surrender without totally leveling the islands.
2015/08/06 18:11:48
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Again, you're utterly ignoring casualty estimates by the Alllies.
Your arguments rests on a lot of maybes, could haves, etc.
The fact is they didn't surrender until these events occurred, all of them occurred.
And it worked.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/08/06 18:13:53
Subject: Japan revisionists deny WW2 sex slave atrocities
Frazzled wrote: Again, you're utterly ignoring casualty estimates by the Alllies.
Your arguments rests on a lot of maybes, could haves, etc.
The fact is they didn't surrender until these events occurred, all of them occurred.
And it worked.
No, I mentioned them.
The Americans wanted to keep the Soviets out of postwar Japan, and that was the reason that there was a pressure to invade 'Now, now, now!', and they were calculating casualty lists.
Casualty lists are only a factor if you assume that America HAD to invade Japan. That is a 'maybe, could have, etc' as you put it. It is unknown if it would have been necessary. Welcome to 'what if' history.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/06 18:14:59
Mixing up a military general with a politician 
