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Hey mates. While testing out a Drop Pod Army with BA rules, a male on the next table over was running SM'S (believe Ultramarines), and was playing the Skyhammer Annihilation Force against another buddies Orks. He had equipped the Devestators with Grav-Cannons, however against Orks that's not exactly effective against a lot of units in their Codex, and due to that he ended up losing. Soon after, a debate erupted as while most people run Grav-Cannons with the Devestators from the Skyhammer, some people wondered if wouldn't it be best to just stick with Multi-Meltas or run something else.

Don't get me wrong, most people know grav cannons are very good. However a big problem by running grav cannons is that fully kitted out 10 man Devastator Squad with Grav-Cannons is over 300 points. And that is for just 10 regular Marines. Granted since they are in a drop pod, the alpha strike is a key phase for them. However some people question the overall worth as while they are good against armies such as other Marines, Necrons, and other high armored saved foes and vehicles, there are a very good number of lists and opponents that can limit their overall effectiveness greatly. They argue that while grav cannons are great, they are not effective against a lot of things, whereas a Multi-Melta is good against everything. Anyways just wanted your guys thoughts on this little debate and please share your opinions and experiences as well.

Because AP 1 is not that great anymore vs vehicles, I'd say grav cannons all the time.

for 100 less points for the MM instead of GC you get less ability to kill hordes of meq and wraithknights whilst becoming better at killing pretty much everything else

Personally i'd always go for MM because i prefer to have as many bodies as possible but grav cannons are probably better at dealing with the 'meta' armies

I take a squad of each, though MMs look more attractive to a Salamanders player than they do to other chapters.

How are Multi-Melta's good against Hordes when Grav-Cannons aren't?

Vs Ork Boyz. The math will be the same for anything else with a 6+ or no armour save (Gaunts, Demons etc). This is assuming no Cover or Invuln saves either, just to get a baseline.

Multimelta's - 4 Shots, 2.67 Hit, 2.22 Unsaved Wounds

Grav Cannons - 20 shots, 13.33 Hit, 4.07 Unsaved Wounds with the Grav Amp Re-roll.

Even if the Boyz had a Painboy in the unit it would still be 2.72 unsaved Wounds for the Grav Cannons after the 5+ FNP, which is ever so slightly more than the Multi-Melta's are doing.

So neither Multi-Melta's nor Grav Cannons are particular good against Hordes, however Grav Cannons are slightly less worse (mainly because they put out a lot of shots, and Grav-Amps let them re-roll failed To Wounds). But the effectiveness of a Grav-Cannon scales up as the target's armour save gets better, whereas the Mult Melta effectiveness remains fairly flat. The only time a Multi-Melta is arguably more effective is when it shooting at multi-wound T3/4 models since it will be causing Instant-Death, however the Grav Cannons have the weight of fire to make up for it.

 GoonBandito wrote:
How are Multi-Melta's good against Hordes when Grav-Cannons aren't?

Vs Ork Boyz. The math will be the same for anything else with a 6+ or no armour save (Gaunts, Demons etc). This is assuming no Cover or Invuln saves either, just to get a baseline.

Multimelta's - 4 Shots, 2.67 Hit, 2.22 Unsaved Wounds

Grav Cannons - 20 shots, 13.33 Hit, 4.07 Unsaved Wounds with the Grav Amp Re-roll.

Even if the Boyz had a Painboy in the unit it would still be 2.72 unsaved Wounds for the Grav Cannons after the 5+ FNP, which is ever so slightly more than the Multi-Melta's are doing.

So neither Multi-Melta's nor Grav Cannons are particular good against Hordes, however Grav Cannons are slightly less worse (mainly because they put out a lot of shots, and Grav-Amps let them re-roll failed To Wounds). But the effectiveness of a Grav-Cannon scales up as the target's armour save gets better, whereas the Mult Melta effectiveness remains fairly flat. The only time a Multi-Melta is arguably more effective is when it shooting at multi-wound T3/4 models since it will be causing Instant-Death, however the Grav Cannons have the weight of fire to make up for it.

It's not just about playing against orks, it's in reference to all of the other armies where grav cannons would be less effective against, which include Orks as well as other opponents. Plus some argue that while Grav Cannons pump out more shots, remember that any unit shot at from the Devestators is either pinned or forced to go to ground to set up the charge for your Assault Marines.

Don't get me wrong, I think Grav Cannons are awesome, however they did make a very good point that the point cost of a full 10x man unit of Devestators with Grav-Cannons is super expensive, and combined with the 2x 10x man Assault Marines Squads, it easily becomes over 1000 points for just 40, standard PA Marines. Not always a good thing against a lot of opponents these days.

 asorel wrote:
I take a squad of each, though MMs look more attractive to a Salamanders player than they do to other chapters.

I thought Vulkan only tooled up the meltas in his detachment--so no Skyhammer. Is that wrong?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 asorel wrote:
I take a squad of each, though MMs look more attractive to a Salamanders player than they do to other chapters.

I thought Vulkan only tooled up the meltas in his detachment--so no Skyhammer. Is that wrong?

Last I checked Vulkan only attributes that to his own CAD, not to any formations that join attached to it. If he could that would definitely make Multi-Meltas a good choice in that case, but in his case I think he is referring to fluff-wise that Multi-Meltas fit the Salamanders Chapter very well. Such as Heavy Bolters fit the IF 's very well, which surprisingly I'd pretty effective as they focus on troops while my Tac Squads focus on heavy armor as they allow have Melta Guns base.

Why settle with just 1 Skyhammer when you could take 2 and take all of the heavy weapons you'd ever want to?

Skyhammer 1:

2 assault squads, 2 flamers and melta bombs in each
2 dev squads, grav cannons, multi-meltas, matching combi-weapons

Skyhammer 2:

2 assault squads, 2 flamers and melta bombs in each
2 dev squads, heavy bolters, missile launchers, combi-flamers

Stormwing formation, Skyhammer missiles on Stormtalons

exactly 1850 points

But in case you're not trying your hardest in being That Guy, take only one. I feel that multi-meltas and grav cannons are a pretty good mix.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Why settle with just 1 Skyhammer when you could take 2 and take all of the heavy weapons you'd ever want to?

Skyhammer 1:

2 assault squads, 2 flamers and melta bombs in each
2 dev squads, grav cannons, multi-meltas, matching combi-weapons

Skyhammer 2:

2 assault squads, 2 flamers and melta bombs in each
2 dev squads, heavy bolters, missile launchers, combi-flamers

Stormwing formation, Skyhammer missiles on Stormtalons

exactly 1850 points

But in case you're not trying your hardest in being That Guy, take only one. I feel that multi-meltas and grav cannons are a pretty good mix.

You are using Skyhammer. Might as well go nuts. There's no point in holding back.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Why settle with just 1 Skyhammer when you could take 2 and take all of the heavy weapons you'd ever want to?

Skyhammer 1:

2 assault squads, 2 flamers and melta bombs in each
2 dev squads, grav cannons, multi-meltas, matching combi-weapons

Skyhammer 2:

2 assault squads, 2 flamers and melta bombs in each
2 dev squads, heavy bolters, missile launchers, combi-flamers

Stormwing formation, Skyhammer missiles on Stormtalons

exactly 1850 points

But in case you're not trying your hardest in being That Guy, take only one. I feel that multi-meltas and grav cannons are a pretty good mix.

I can (sort of) see the appeal of Missile launchers, as your Devs would be good against everything, but great at nothing, but why the HBs? I thought they were underpowered for their points. Is it a points cost issue?

I still think HB are nice against hordes.

I hate Missile Launchers, personally.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 asorel wrote:
I take a squad of each, though MMs look more attractive to a Salamanders player than they do to other chapters.

I thought Vulkan only tooled up the meltas in his detachment--so no Skyhammer. Is that wrong?

Last I checked Vulkan only attributes that to his own CAD, not to any formations that join attached to it. If he could that would definitely make Multi-Meltas a good choice in that case, but in his case I think he is referring to fluff-wise that Multi-Meltas fit the Salamanders Chapter very well. Such as Heavy Bolters fit the IF 's very well, which surprisingly I'd pretty effective as they focus on troops while my Tac Squads focus on heavy armor as they allow have Melta Guns base.

vulkan like the other named bosses, he affect the models in his own detachment

so he can buff his own gladius but not skyhammer since he's not part of the skyhammer

 asorel wrote:


I can (sort of) see the appeal of Missile launchers, as your Devs would be good against everything, but great at nothing, but why the HBs? I thought they were underpowered for their points. Is it a points cost issue?

I'm not saying that heavy bolters are all that good in most situations but my point was to quickly demonstrate how you can just take all the heavy weapons you want to. Relentless on the turn they come in makes them much more appealing, just like with any other heavy weapon here. Different weapons for different targets, HB is just an answer to hordes in my list.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 asorel wrote:


I can (sort of) see the appeal of Missile launchers, as your Devs would be good against everything, but great at nothing, but why the HBs? I thought they were underpowered for their points. Is it a points cost issue?

I'm not saying that heavy bolters are all that good in most situations but my point was to quickly demonstrate how you can just take all the heavy weapons you want to. Relentless on the turn they come in makes them much more appealing, just like with any other heavy weapon here. Different weapons for different targets, HB is just an answer to hordes in my list.

Also, it depends on what type of list you are running and what role you want them to fill. Good example is when I ran the Fleash Tearers FOC and had a bunch of Assault Squads with 3x Melta shots per unit (including the Sgt.s Inferno Pistol), so I gave the Devestators from the Skyhammer Hvy. Bolters to work with the Assault Squads better to go after my opponents infantry.

Granted both units of Assault Marines and Devestators can work separate from each other, but when working together, they really do become a force to be reckoned with. Grav Cannons will always be an option, however there are games where I would rather have more bodies on the table.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I still think HB are nice against hordes.

I hate Missile Launchers, personally.

Do you have the Mathhammer to back that statement up?

That I hate Missile Launchers?

I'm not aware of a mathematical formula for that.

However, years of personal experience have shown repeatedly that missile launchers try to do two things and do neither of them well. Against heavily armored targets, or vehicles, I'd prefer a dedicated weapon for that role. For anti-infantry purposes, weapons that pen armor like a plasma cannon (which wounds more reliably, too) seems like they perform better. And while a heavy bolter may be slightly over costed, no matter how poorly you roll with it, it's not going to hit your own troops!

I've never had a game where I took a missile launcher and didn't regret it. Literally, not one. Similarly, in every matchup with Space Marines I can think of, I'm always glad to see them take missile launchers, and can't ever recall a game where that selection proved to be the most beneficial.

I can't provide any math hammer for you, unfortunately. All I have is personal experience dating back to third edition that has led me to conclude that I'm better off going with a different weapon choice. If you've got some significantly different first hand data under your belt, then your mileage may vary, as the expression goes.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
How are Multi-Melta's good against Hordes when Grav-Cannons aren't?

Vs Ork Boyz. The math will be the same for anything else with a 6+ or no armour save (Gaunts, Demons etc). This is assuming no Cover or Invuln saves either, just to get a baseline.

Multimelta's - 4 Shots, 2.67 Hit, 2.22 Unsaved Wounds

Grav Cannons - 20 shots, 13.33 Hit, 4.07 Unsaved Wounds with the Grav Amp Re-roll.

Even if the Boyz had a Painboy in the unit it would still be 2.72 unsaved Wounds for the Grav Cannons after the 5+ FNP, which is ever so slightly more than the Multi-Melta's are doing.

So neither Multi-Melta's nor Grav Cannons are particular good against Hordes, however Grav Cannons are slightly less worse (mainly because they put out a lot of shots, and Grav-Amps let them re-roll failed To Wounds). But the effectiveness of a Grav-Cannon scales up as the target's armour save gets better, whereas the Mult Melta effectiveness remains fairly flat. The only time a Multi-Melta is arguably more effective is when it shooting at multi-wound T3/4 models since it will be causing Instant-Death, however the Grav Cannons have the weight of fire to make up for it.

It's not just about playing against orks, it's in reference to all of the other armies where grav cannons would be less effective against, which include Orks as well as other opponents. Plus some argue that while Grav Cannons pump out more shots, remember that any unit shot at from the Devestators is either pinned or forced to go to ground to set up the charge for your Assault Marines.

But Ork Boyz are basically the worst target to shoot at with Grav Cannons compared to Multi-Melta's though, and even then the Grav-Cannons put out more unsaved Wounds. Boyz can easily get FNP from a Painboy, which a Multi-Melta will ignore, whereas shooting at say Gaunts or Lesser Demons both Grav Cannons and Multi-melta's will have a 5+ save meaning the Grav Cannon is definitely better. Plus the Grav-Cannon is flat-out better against any unit that has a better save than a 6+ Armour. Grav Cannons are better than Multi-Melta's against lightly armoured hordes, though neither of them are great. Heavy Bolter's are more effective against lightly armoured hordes, but even then they are only doing 5.33 Unsaved Wounds vs Ork Boyz which isn't that much more than the 4.07 Grav Cannons are doing. Against T3 models Heavy Bolters do get better again though.

You were saying that Multi-Melta's are better against Hordes than Grav Cannons. They're not. Unless you consider the point-per-unsaved-wound efficiency in which case Multi-Melta's are better. However then you need to consider that Grav-Cannons are more much more useful over a wider range of targets, with about the only exception being Greater Demons and Demon Princes who haven't got the 3+ Armour Save upgrade/reward.

Multi-Melta's true effectiveness is only against Vehicles, but even then Grav Cannons match them. Consider Multi-Melta's and Grav Cannons vs AV12 (again, no Invuln or Cover saves assumed and that the MM's are within 12" for the Melta rule to take effect)

Multi-Melta - 4 Shots, 2.67 Hits, 0.22 Glances, 2.37 Penetrates. You'll strip 2.59 Hull Points in total, do 0.79 Explodes Results on the Pens. On average you'll be slightly short of taking out a 3HP vehicle unless you Explode it, and it gets worse still against AV13 and 14. It's at least comparable to Grav Cannons though.

Grav Cannons - 20 Shots, 13.33 Hit, 2.22 Immoblise results. Because you've done a 2nd Immobilise result you'll strip 3 HPs in total meaning on average you will wreck any 3HP vehicle that has no saves. Because Grav doesn't care about the AV value, this will be true of any non-Super Heavy vehicle - you'll always do 3HP on average with an Immobilised result. You wont take out a Land Raider or Monolith on average but you will at least Immobilise it and leave it on 1HP.

I agree that MLs are pretty terrible. AP 3 is just too weak for a heavy weapon.

Never said Multi-Meltas are better against Hordes mate. Was referring that overall Multi-Meltas are a pretty flexible weapon that while yes it isn't great against hordes, it still is S8 AP1 which is good against pretty much everything. Grav Cannons are great but to field them it costs an arm and a leg, and in my experience, I have had more success with Multi-Meltas or Heavy Bolter when going against armies like Orks, Foot Guard, Tyranids, etc. But again I run a list with a lot of Melta in it so I haven't had any to very little trouble against the tougher things from those army lists.

I personally don't think a 100pt difference is an arm-and-a-leg difference, when you consider just how effective Grav is against a much wider range of targets than Multi-Melta. 4 Grav Cannons firing at full Salvo will take down a Wraithknight - nothing else in the game aside from Strength D will even get close to doing that.

Don't get me wrong - I like Melta and spam it everywhere on my Sisters. But Grav weapons are just so strong that it's just sub-par to take anything else. Grav weapons should really be nerfed somehow imo

Martel732 wrote:
Because AP 1 is not that great anymore vs vehicles, I'd say grav cannons all the time.

The hell are you smoking, and can I have some??

You pop a vehicle outright on a 5+. Period.

It's statements like this that make me shake my head. AP:1 is awesome, and AP:2 is petty smooth too.

As for the question posed, I prefer a more generalized build, so I would use Multimeltas personally, especially since you can combat squad once you hit the ground and fire the Multimeltas into a hard target, then Bolters into something else on foot.

Hope that helps. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 GoonBandito wrote:
I personally don't think a 100pt difference is an arm-and-a-leg difference, when you consider just how effective Grav is against a much wider range of targets than Multi-Melta. 4 Grav Cannons firing at full Salvo will take down a Wraithknight - nothing else in the game aside from Strength D will even get close to doing that.

Don't get me wrong - I like Melta and spam it everywhere on my Sisters. But Grav weapons are just so strong that it's just sub-par to take anything else. Grav weapons should really be nerfed somehow imo

Technically it would be a 200 point difference as there are 2x Devestator Squads. That's the same Cost of a Stormraven without any upgrades or even another 10x man squad in a Drop Pod, so it does add up pretty quick.

Unless your playing against tfg, id say mm & gc. Take the mm squad as a ten man with death wind. That way you can nail troops if you popped a transport. Conversely you can use the same set up to remove bubble wrap.

Since I use Imperial Fists tactics, I am actually going to say Multi-Meltas. Tank Hunters helps out MM quite a bit.

On the whole though, Grav Cannons all the way.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because AP 1 is not that great anymore vs vehicles, I'd say grav cannons all the time.

The hell are you smoking, and can I have some??

You pop a vehicle outright on a 5+. Period.

It's statements like this that make me shake my head. AP:1 is awesome, and AP:2 is petty smooth too.

As for the question posed, I prefer a more generalized build, so I would use Multimeltas personally, especially since you can combat squad once you hit the ground and fire the Multimeltas into a hard target, then Bolters into something else on foot.

Hope that helps. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

The reason is that because you need to first Hit, then Pen, then get past any Saving Throws, then roll a 5+. The odds aren't particularly great. A single Multi-Melta shot from a BS4 model inside 12" against say an AV12 vehicle with a 4+ save will have about a 9% chance to do an Explode. A Single Grav Cannon shot up to 24" will also have roughly a 10% chance to do an Immobilise Result against that same vehicle. Except the Grav Cannon shoots 5 times whereas the Multi-Melta can only fire once, and the Grav Cannon does it at longer range.

It's not so much that AP1 is bad, it's that Single Shot weapons that have to roll on the Vehicle Damage table are bad. Grav Cannons are neither of those (being 5 shots where a re-rollable 6+ causes an Immobilise with an extra bonus of any further Immobilise results stripping 2 HPs instead of 1). Unfortunately the maths is not on the side of the Multi-Melta. The whole Vehicle/AV/Hull Point/Penetration mechanic is up the gak in these current rules.

Gravs. You can get MMs with LotD (which ignores cover!)

An equal mix of the two is the better TAC load out, because it is usable over a wide range of possible targets. Going all in on one or the other limits your choices.

SJ

Skyhammer was two Devs right?

Why not one grav and one multi melta?

One for the elite, the other for the tanks.

You are basically guaranteed first blood.

You can also combat squad them up. and in the case of hoards send the bolter chumps against them.

They should all get gravs. Only onther contender is plasma cannons - Cause 4 relentless plasma cannons can do some pretty good killing on lots of different targets too and are a bit cheaper.