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God, its been so long since I've been able to see the unedited originals ;_;

chaos0xomega wrote:
God, its been so long since I've been able to see the unedited originals ;_;

I watch the despecialized editions, they are in HD but the cinematic releases. Im so used to the unedited that it looks weird with the additions. Since I had them on VHS as a kid I never really saw the special editions until my friend got the blue ray collection.

Ultimately the difference isn't huge mostly, but I just like watching what i was used to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also another case of "it was explained in the books"



Handy for anyone wanting to know what was going on setting wise.

Is this from the Visual Dictionary? I need to find time to take a peek at it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Is this from the Visual Dictionary? I need to find time to take a peek at it.

No idea, just saw it glancing through reddit while work closes up. I'll have a look at where it comes from.

Saw the movie tonight. I thought it was good. It's the Star Wars I wish we'd had when the prequels came out.

Well hopefully the destruction of the (poorly-introduced and never-explained) capital will rouse the New Republic to action in the next film.

Not spoiler tagging things because spoiler is in the friggin title.

Just saw the movie and it had all the problems I fully expected. Too rushed, a lot of fan service that just wasn't REALLY needed, and a rehashed plot. Completely enjoyed it, but I'm not pretending the movie was amazing. I still preferred reading a New Jedi Order books than the movie. Patented Marvel humor system that I still really enjoy though. And the theater crowd was awesome. Cheers and whoops when an old cast member came on, except for Luke cause that was a very somber moment. Like everyone was just drinking it in.

Is it just me or was Solo's death a non-moment? I mean, it was friggin broadcasted for ages. I was more shocked when Chewie got shot. That scene could have been handled MUCH better with less drama.

I feel a little whiplashed over how much they tried to cram down our throats in two hours. The New Republic is who now? Do they matter? Well, hopefully not. What's the little thing with glasses? What the feth is the Last Order even doing??? Luke trained other Jedi but what happened to them? Did Ren kill them all? All of these questions and more will be answered on... no wait, we just breezed over all that.

There's books right? A nice selection of between-movies lore that I can catch up on, or is it still to early for that?

Finally saw the movie.

What a joke. Storm Troopers who can actually hit something! Ridiculous!

Does no-one believe in canon anymore???

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Just saw the movie and it had all the problems I fully expected. Too rushed, a lot of fan service that just wasn't REALLY needed, and a rehashed plot. Completely enjoyed it, but I'm not pretending the movie was amazing. I still preferred reading a New Jedi Order books than the movie. Patented Marvel humor system that I still really enjoy though. And the theater crowd was awesome. Cheers and whoops when an old cast member came on, except for Luke cause that was a very somber moment. Like everyone was just drinking it in.

The plot was indeed a mishmash of all of the original trilogy movie, which let's be honest, is pretty much a majority of the fandom have been asking for since 1999. I though the fan service was fine and expected; you have to remember that this is the first time ever that a movie has taken place in a setting in which the original trilogy has happened. It makes sense to be self referential as the newer characters understand the universe in which they live.

In my opinion, it was old but also new at the same time.

Is it just me or was Solo's death a non-moment? I mean, it was friggin broadcasted for ages. I was more shocked when Chewie got shot. That scene could have been handled MUCH better with less drama.

Well, anyone who knows anything about the behind-the-scenes going-ons with the original trilogy knew Han was going to die; Harrison Ford has been begging for it for 35 years. It hurt when it happened and I definitely got a little misty eyed and on top of that, it was incredibly well acted by both Ford and Driver. (How often does anyone say that about any of the actors in a Star Wars movie?)

I feel a little whiplashed over how much they tried to cram down our throats in two hours. The New Republic is who now? Do they matter? Well, hopefully not. What's the little thing with glasses? What the feth is the Last Order even doing??? Luke trained other Jedi but what happened to them? Did Ren kill them all? All of these questions and more will be answered on... no wait, we just breezed over all that.

There are a bunch of new "EU" books that explain who the New Republic and First Order are, but it basically boils down to the Rebellion won the Galactic Civil War and established the New Republic after signing a peace treaty with battered remains of the Empire. The treaty was essentially the Star Wars version of the Treaty of Versailles; it stripped the Empire of the ability to wage war and made them pay massive reparations. Some leaders of the Empire refused to accept the terms and instead retreated to the fringes of the Galaxy where they established the First Order. On the other hand, the New Republic went through a rapid demilitarization with the hopes of not repeating history since Mon Mothma retained a majority of emergency powers, similar to Palpatine. The First Order's influence began to spread to new worlds while the weakened New Republic largely ignored them. A handful of the Rebellion's military leaders recognized this threat and formed the Resistance under command of Princess Leia and began waging a cold war against the First Order while being begrudgingly supported in secret by the New Republic.

Here's a decent video that explains the three factions:



Maz Kanata is a bit of a mystery (which I think is cool). We know she's very old, at least 1000 years, and that her pirate bar/castle was built on the site of an ancient Jedi/Sith battleground. Also, she is Force-sensitive but not a trained Jedi, and uses the Force to watch the ebb and flow of the Galaxy. In pre-release interviews, Abrams and Nyong’o both hinted that she has crossed paths with Yoda at some point.

We know next to nothing about the Knights of Ren other than Kylo Ren (Ben Solo) is their leader. It's implied that they responsible for Luke's self-imposed exile after Kylo and the Knights slaughtered the fledgling Jedi academy (during Rey's vision after touching Anakin/Luke's lightsaber).

In my opinion, I enjoy not knowing every single little detail. Think back to the first time you watched Star Wars; we knew next to nothing about the Empire, Rebellion, the Jedi, any of it. One of the weakest things about the Prequels is the focus on Galactic governance and the need to explain gak we didn't need explained. It's how we ended up with midi-chlorians, after all. This is science fantasy, let there be some mystery in the world!

There's books right? A nice selection of between-movies lore that I can catch up on, or is it still to early for that?

There is lots of pre-The Force Awakens material and I'm sure there will new stuff to help bridge the gap between this movie and Episode VIII

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
(poorly-introduced and never-explained) capital

Because Alderaan had lots of backstory in A New Hope?

Factions, huh? So, it's mini-me Rebellion versus mini-me Empire?

Very helpful overview. I'm going to have to give these new books a try. I THOUGHT Han called him Ben in that scene but I'm fairly deaf and wasn't sure. That just throws me for a loop right there just because of the AU stuff (that's called Legacy now, right?) they threw out now...

Some mystery is nice and all, but considering they took something that had a reasonably consistent canon in what used to be the EU that I had literally grown up with, it's frustrating to no longer know the world I've been watching and reading since I was able to watch and read adult media.

I put myself on a media blackout since the trailers began to ramp up and screenings started becoming a thing. Glad I did too cause there were a fair few things that I was genuinely excited and surprised about. The new TIEs being one of them.

When I say the death scene could have been done with less drama, I mean the build up. If the build up was done better, maybe the actual act would have hit me harder since I was legitimately in the dark about his death going into the movie. But the way it was done it was too advertised. Too stereotypical.

One thing I did notice though that friggin made me SO happy. They didn't have a character who's sole job is to say 'What do you mean (whatever beep boop or alien sound was said)' The audience actually has to think for themselves a little bit hearing only half the conversation.

 Ahtman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
(poorly-introduced and never-explained) capital

Because Alderaan had lots of backstory in A New Hope?

Exactly.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Star Wars (and the rest of the original trilogy) explained almost nothing and it was totally awesome. Then, we got the Prequels and they explained everything, including all of the gak we didn't need to have explained to us and it sucked hard.

Now we have a new movie that doesn't explain every single detail and people are bitter about it.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
Is anyone else guessing that Snoke is like... really short, because of the outsize hologram?

I'm imagining evil Yoda.

I think this is almost guaranteed.

I'm a bit late here, but I remember reading somewhere (I'll try to dig it up tomorrow) that Snoke was confirmed to be 7 feet tall in one of the guides (I remember because somebody commented that it must be wrong, because Jar Jar is only 6 and a half feet tall).

I expect him to be really thin and frail when we see him (and unable to actually fight), like a Kaminoan with jaundice.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Some mystery is nice and all, but considering they took something that had a reasonably consistent canon in what used to be the EU that I had literally grown up with, it's frustrating to no longer know the world I've been watching and reading since I was able to watch and read adult media.

There was some cool stuff in the EU, but there was lots and lots of really stupid gak too. Dumping it was the best thing that could have happened. Also, even if George Lucas had decided to make these movies instead of selling the franchise to Disney, he would have ignored the EU as well. He's made it pretty clear over the years that the only Star Wars that matters to him was what he created.

When I say the death scene could have been done with less drama, I mean the build up. If the build up was done better, maybe the actual act would have hit me harder since I was legitimately in the dark about his death going into the movie. But the way it was done it was too advertised. Too stereotypical.

To be honest, I didn't think Kylo Ren was going to kill him, but I knew he was going to die. You are correct that it was pretty obvious what was going to happen when he confronted Ben on that catwalk, but welcome to Star Wars... we all knew Luke was going to make that shot to destroy the Death Star, we knew Luke was going to rescue his friends from Jabba, and we knew Han was going to get the Death Star shield down in time for Lando; it's just kinda how it works.

One thing I did notice though that friggin made me SO happy. They didn't have a character who's sole job is to say 'What do you mean (whatever beep boop or alien sound was said)' The audience actually has to think for themselves a little bit hearing only half the conversation.

I agree. The only time there were subtitles was at Maz Kanata's bar and those were necessary. It also helped when my daughters (4 and 6) were watching it because I didn't have to read them subtitles. My six year old can read, but not fast enough to read movie subtitles yet. That also reminds me that BB-8 was absolutely fantastic. That little droid had so much character it's ridiculous. I also laughed when Han just referred to him as "ball."

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Well, anyone who knows anything about the behind-the-scenes going-ons with the original trilogy knew Han was going to die

Or anyone who understands the idea of a "next generation" sequel, honestly. Han is clearly not the kind of character who would fade away quietly and go sit in the back of the command bunker while other people do the fighting, and an iconic actor playing a fan-favorite role is going to draw a lot of attention. The next generation can't have their own stories if it's allowed to be "Han and these other people do stuff" so it's almost inevitable that if you bring back Han you have to kill him. I would not be at all surprised if Luke gets a similar fate in the next film and lasts just long enough to pass on his role to the next generation before being killed to move the plot along.

Think back to the first time you watched Star Wars; we knew next to nothing about the Empire, Rebellion, the Jedi, any of it.

Sure, but it was all explained on-screen very quickly instead of putting basic facts into an EU book. Unless you're completely oblivious you figure out almost immediately that the Empire controls the galaxy and is evil, the rebellion is attempting to overthrow the Empire, and the jedi are the last of a dying generation of space wizards/warrior monks. In the new movie you have the Evil Empire and the rebellion, but then somehow there's also the Republic that hasn't been overthrown by the Empire yet. So how do you have a rebellion without being conquered first? The whole concept just doesn't make any sense and feels like someone made a cut/paste error in the script or decided at the last second that the heroes had to be rebels instead of Republic soldiers for maximum cash-cow-milking efficiency.

Perry's right. Every single Star Wars movie explains, naturally, where you are in any given scene. With the exception of the quick cuts from world to world in the Order 66 sequence in Ep III, there's never a question of where you are.

When...
... we're left mostly wondering why it was significant because we have never been introduced to that world nor really stated why we should care.

TFA was a movie that I enjoyed, but it was terrible at world building.

 Ahtman wrote:
Because Alderaan had lots of backstory in A New Hope?

1. We were introduced to Alderaan.
2. Leia gives us a very quick rundown of what it is (peaceful planet, no weapons, etc.). A clear emotional attachment is felt, and even moreso when Obi-wan describes the feeling of its destruction ("... cried out in terror..." etc.).
3. The world was mentioned several times as being very important by multiple characters.
4. It's destruction shapes the narrative of the rest of the film.

Ask anyone coming out of TFA what they thought of Hosnian Prime and they will ask "Which character was that?", or, perhaps, "Is that a Transformer?".

But no, by all means, talk about the two as if they were the same.

There is no Rebellion because they won the Galactic Civil War and established the New Republic, as we know from the end of Return of the Jedi. As explained in the opening crawl, the First Order rose out of the ashes of the fallen Empire and the Resistance is, well, resisting them with the help of the New Republic.

None of these things require huge leaps in logic if you have seen the original trilogy as it's pretty obvious that there are three factions in play. Also, the First Order on a whole isn't sure that the Resistance is actually part of the Republic, but General Hux believes (correctly) that it is, which is why they strike at the Republic's capital.

Wait, it wasn't Coruscant?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
TFA was a movie that I enjoyed, but it was terrible at world building.

I very much disagree.

 Ahtman wrote:
Because Alderaan had lots of backstory in A New Hope?

1. We were introduced to Alderaan.
2. Leia gives us a very quick rundown of what it is (peaceful planet, no weapons, etc.). A clear emotional attachment is felt, and even moreso when Obi-wan describes the feeling of its destruction ("... cried out in terror..." etc.).
3. The world was mentioned several times as being very important by multiple characters.
4. It's destruction shapes the narrative of the rest of the film.

Except we aren't "introduced" to Alderaan in any meaningful way, it's just a vaguely Earth-like planet we see from space and is the place where the MacGuffin needs to get to (except we find that it really didn't because the Rebel base is actually on Yavin). There is no reason given for it to be important other than that's where Princess Leia is from. Also, it's never mentioned again in any of the movies or even in Star Wars after it is destroyed. In fact, instead of mourning the loss of billions innocent people, Luke and Leia mourn the loss of Obi-wan (the guy they had known for a day) after they escape from the Death Star. That planet's destruction has zero effect on anything that happens afterward and not a single character ever gives a gak about it.

But no, by all means, talk about the two as if they were the same.

I will because they are.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
There is no Rebellion because they won the Galactic Civil War and established the New Republic, as we know from the end of Return of the Jedi. As explained in the opening crawl, the First Order rose out of the ashes of the fallen Empire and the Resistance is, well, resisting them with the help of the New Republic.

Except there IS a rebellion. There isn't the same old capital-R Rebellion name used, but they still have the same symbol, still fly (almost) the same x-wings, etc. And the name "resistance" implies that they're fighting a rebellion against the existing government. It's very clearly setting up a situation like the original trilogy where it's the rebel heroes fighting to overthrow the Evil Empire, except suddenly and for no apparent reason the Republic is still around and the "rebels" are actually a branch of the Republic military.

None of these things require huge leaps in logic if you have seen the original trilogy as it's pretty obvious that there are three factions in play.

Sure, it's obvious that there are three factions, but it's completely unclear about how those factions relate to each other. The names and setup of most of the movie make it seem like the Evil Empire has won the war and the Resistance is fighting another rebellion to overthrow them. Mentioning the Republic tells us that there's a third faction but it doesn't explain at all how you can have the Resistance while the Republic still controls most (?) of the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Wait, it wasn't Coruscant?

Nope. Thus proving the point about the poor job the movie does of explaining its setting.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I very much disagree.

*cough*

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Wait, it wasn't Coruscant?

Exactly!

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
There is no reason given for it to be important other than that's where Princess Leia is from.

But that's all we need to know to understand the plot. In fact, it's arguably more than we need to know, because all the destruction of Alderaan really does is establish that the Evil Empire is in fact Evil. All the EU explanations are interesting for some fans, but they're not essential to understanding the story. It's not like the current movie where you have a "WTF how is the Republic still around, I thought the Evil Empire won already" moment immediately before the capital of the Republic is destroyed.

Just seen it.

It was quite good.

Yes, you could drive the Executor through the plot holes and contrivances and most of the movie was made from remade scenes from the other 6 movies. But it was a good watch, maybe the best one of the 7 as far as pure entertainment value goes.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
There is no reason given for it to be important other than that's where Princess Leia is from.

But that's all we need to know to understand the plot. In fact, it's arguably more than we need to know, because all the destruction of Alderaan really does is establish that the Evil Empire is in fact Evil. All the EU explanations are interesting for some fans, but they're not essential to understanding the story. It's not like the current movie where you have a "WTF how is the Republic still around, I thought the Evil Empire won already" moment immediately before the capital of the Republic is destroyed.

So the Empire blows up an arbitrary planet that no one really seems to care about in Star Wars and it makes perfect sense, but the obviously evil First Order blows up a plane that no one seems to care about but it doesn't make sense at all?


I took my mother, who hasn't seen a Star Wars movie since 1983 (and she fell asleep during it), to see this movie and she had a pretty clear idea of what was going on without the film hand-holding her through it. I do know that if the film had devoted all of its time to explaining the ins and outs of Galactic politics, everyone would be bitching about it (and rightfully so, because we've been down that path before). I mean it's really obvious that the First Order is rising up against the New Republic and the Resistance, led by Princess Leia, is fighting back against them. Hopefully in Episode VIII, we'll get some scenes in the Galactic Senate where they discuss the politics of the Galaxy so we all understand what's going on.

So the Empire blows up an arbitrary planet that no one really seems to care about in Star Wars and it makes perfect sense, but the obviously evil First Order blows up a plane that no one seems to care about but it doesn't make sense at all?

Leia's home world getting blown up in the first part makes perfect sense - Peter Cushing is threatening the destruction of her home world in order to get her to betray the location of the rebel base.

If that doesn't make sense as a plot device, then I don't know what the hell does!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as I've mentioned 100 times before, this is screenwriting 101.

Take a character who's been isolated on a backwater planet all her life, and get her to ask the simple question of what's going on. Character X replies, and 90 seconds later, the audience is clued up.

I can only assume that Mr Lens flare skipped screenwriting 101 for lens flare 101

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
So the Empire blows up an arbitrary planet that no one really seems to care about in Star Wars and it makes perfect sense, but the obviously evil First Order blows up a plane that no one seems to care about but it doesn't make sense at all?

It's not just that they blow it up, it's that the capital of the Republic shouldn't exist at all. Seriously, words have meanings, and if you label a group "the Resistance" it pretty clearly implies that they're a non-government group fighting (probably using guerrilla tactics) inside territory occupied by a government they want to overthrow. If those people with x-wings are called "the Resistance" and they're fighting what looks like the Evil Empire then it should mean that somehow after ROTJ the successors of the original Empire took back control of the galaxy. And that's how it looks for 95% of the film, except for a brief bit of "oh by the way the Republic still exists and we just blew up the capital".

So yes, if you're suddenly going to declare that the "Resistance" is really the Republic military on a plausible-deniability mission to defend against an attacking army while the Republic still exists, you should probably explain how this makes any sense and isn't just a case of accidentally leaving in a scene from a previous draft. Because that's not what "the Resistance" means.

I do know that if the film had devoted all of its time to explaining the ins and outs of Galactic politics, everyone would be bitching about it (and rightfully so, because we've been down that path before).

You don't need an hour of scenes in the Republic Senate, you could even explain it in the opening scroll.

Star Wars

Episode VIII: The Force Awakens

The Galactic Empire has been defeated and the Republic has restored peace and justice to the galaxy. But in the Outer Rim regions the last remnants of the Empire have united under the banner of the First Order. Fearing that the Republic's unwillingness to face a second civil war will doom billions to oppression and evil Princess Leia has organized the Resistance, a band of brave heroes fighting the forces of the First Order on every occupied world.

Blah blah blah hero goes to find a map blah blah Luke Skywalker...

I mean it's really obvious that the First Order is rising up against the New Republic and the Resistance, led by Princess Leia, is fighting back against them.

Thank you for proving my point about the lack of clarity. The First Order isn't "rising up", they're an independent state that the Republic had a peace treaty with. They're only "rising up" in the same way that Germany "rose up" against France to start WWII.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Finally saw the movie.

What a joke. Storm Troopers who can actually hit something! Ridiculous!

Does no-one believe in canon anymore???

The canon is that Storm Troopers are excellent shots - and they really are. In the original trilogy, people often make references to their outstanding aim, e.g Obi-Wan while talking to Luke when they search the destroyed sand crawler. The clichée of Storm Troopers being bad shots mostly stems from the Death Star chase where they seem to be unable to hit Luke and the other rebels. What's important to this scene, however, is that they do not /want/ to hit them, they are assigned to let them escape so that later on, the Empire can track the rebel ship.

/e: Wow, according to the info in the picture Swas gave us, the "New Republic" seems to, once again, be led by monkeys. Really? Have they learned /nothing/ of the past? The entire treaty of Coruscant thingy where the Empire pulled off the /exact same thing/? Bunch of monkeys! And on top of that they just say "Meh, we defeated the Emipire, it's okay, they will never do something evil again!"? Bunch. Of. Monkeeeeys!

I understand why JJ has chosen to go with the Resistance. This is Star Wars, and we all want to root for the underdog fighting the good fight against a seemingly unstoppable enemy. After all, we tell stories about the Alamo, not the invasion of Grenada. And really, his Viva la Quince Brigada (in space) rationale sort of works.

At least, until Hosnian Prime is destroyed.

Now, the Republic is involved. Continuing with the Spanish Civil War analogy, now it's no longer a matter of a bunch of crazy ideologized volunteers fighting a guerrilla war against a foe that the powers-that-be barely recognize as a threat. Now tanks are rolling through the French border. It's all-out war.

And it creates a problem, because the following films will have to adress this while staying true to what many believe to be the "true" Star Wars feel. Unless they've planned to unleash a second Clone Wars upon us, that is.

In all, I think the movie would have been better if the goshdarnt Starkiller Base had been left out. But if they absolutely wanted to keep it, it should have destroyed something other than the capital of the New Republic. Preferrably something that wasn't affiliated with the Republic at all. Like the very planet where the Resistance base is, for instance. That would have created an interesting do-or-die situation, one that wouldn't have made the destruction of the superweapon seem such a huge detour, and would have kept the Republic out of the picture.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I took my mother, who hasn't seen a Star Wars movie since 1983 (and she fell asleep during it), to see this movie and she had a pretty clear idea of what was going on without the film hand-holding her through it.

Cool. Now ask her this question, word for word:

"What did you think about the bit with Hosnian Prime?"

And when she says "I don't remember that bit." or "What/who was that?" maybe, just maybe, you'll accept the fact that this movie did a God-awful job at world building.