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 Peregrine wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its always been the case that starships in Star Wars are like cars in our world,

No it hasn't, at least not in the original films.

That's why Han Solo balks at the thought of some kid (Luke) buying is own spaceship to fly off of Tatooine. He then goes on later to make the point that piloting an actual starship isn't like cruising around with your friends in an airspeeder or "dusting crops."

And let's not forget that Han is talking about a civilian transport ship, not a flying a high-performance fighter in combat. Luke doesn't just manage to take off and land in one piece with little or no training, he takes an x-wing into combat, dogfights and kills trained professionals, survives a torpedo run with Vader on his tail, and makes a shot that his veteran squadron leader couldn't make. The real-world equivalent would be a guy with a few hours in a Cessna 152 boasting about being able to fly a 737 just fine and then taking an F-22 into combat and becoming an ace in a single fight. In reality if you tried that you'd be dead, and the only question is if you'd manage to avoid crashing that F-22 long enough to get shot down by an enemy.

Conclusion: Luke is a Mary Sue.

The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

Jedi can do ridiculous things, even when untrained.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

I know, right? Kinda kills the Mary Sue argument when you remind people that these guys can use magic.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

I know, right? Kinda kills the Mary Sue argument when you remind people that these guys can use magic.

Except I hate anakin child for being mary sue too. In fact him doing what he does is a huge complaint by many...

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
People here say Rey is a Mary Sue because she was instantly adept with a light sabre and was able to beat a 'fully trained Sith'. But thats not at all the impression I got.

Kylo Ren really isn't all that skilled with a light sabre. He's powerful, and brutal, but he hacks and slashes with no finesse. If he went up against Luke Skywalker, I think he'd lose. When he destroyed the New Jedi Order, he had the backing of a squad from the Knights of Ren.

He fights the way a complete novice in the real world would fight with a (metal) broadsword.

Rey actually seemed a little more skillful, because she has the transferable skills from teaching herself to use a staff. But she herself was (probably) self trained, and wasn't that much better than Kylo.

Rey's technique is pretty gakky as well. She spends most of her time parrying Kylo's strikes and all of her offensive is poorly timed jabs and broad swings. Like it's been mentioned before by myself and others, she spent a majority of fight running from Kylo Ren; something that is kind of lost when watching it with all the excitement a first time viewing has.

Yeah till she flutters her eyes for a few seconds and reads the future or something and then totally kicks kylo ren's ***. You know training herself to use force abilities that not only do we not know exist yet but training herself abilities on the spot to beat somebody with training (complete or not) from both luke skywalker and snoke which at this point are basically the top tier jedi left.

Keep in mind the only clue she has she might be a jedi is when the light saber chose her. She demonstrates powers she shouldn't even know exist yet. This is absurd. Luke had one big feat in 'A New Hope'. He blew up the death star with obi wan's guidance and han's constant help. His hand had to be held for most of the film.

@Kojiro: You forgot Finn needing to be saved by Poe when captured by all those stormtroopers and leading up to the moment where he says "That's some pilot!" or similar.

Finn was fairly terrible where Rei is just fantastic at everything. In some ways I just couldn't like Finn. He wants to run away (can't totally blame him), tries to put the moves on Rei but needs to make up a story to do it (don't like that bit) and sucks at most things. He's decent with a blaster sure but gets beaten by a non-light saber wielding stormtrooper with next to no special training, rank or purpose. That was just some stormtrooper.

It's true. If anything Finn is more like luke in the first movies than rei is like luke. I mean Rei even fails to display the emo so common in the skywalker family (which she is probably a part of). I will admit it seems to hit skywalker boys more than the girls (kylo ren, luke, Anakin).

------

Oh and for any that suggest I don't hate Anakin I actually did. My response for Anakin destroying the big space station in episode 1 without knowing wtf is going on leaves me with a 'Huh, wtf?!' face.

 Kojiro wrote:
Because he was saved by Han. Wedge and Red leader also survive the run (admittedly Red Leader doesn't last much longer but he does survive Vader).

Red Leader doesn't survive, he gets shot down by Vader after he fails to hit the exhaust port.

The only survivors are Wedge and Luke from Red Squadron along with Keyan Farlander of Gold Squadron.

I won't lie that the rebel pilot in the new movie is kinda mary sue but he had the training. There's a difference. Also Kylo Ren extracts secrets from him and makes him look bad and he does need to be rescued.

Finn did all of maybe one or two things to help out and usually stumbles around to do so. Sure he helps but he isn't good at everything.

New girl does well at just about everything (pilot, force powers and even some dueling). Keep this in mind luke wasn't fully trained and vader beat the crap out of him in 'empire strikes back'. Rei's already beaten the #2 villain of the movies in the first movie. What more is left? You made her too strong.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
[Luke had one big feat in 'A New Hope'. He blew up the death star with obi wan's guidance and han's constant help. His hand had to be held for most of the film.

Yeah, Luke did the thing that other characters said was impossible and the best pilot in the squadron failed to do.

Obi-Wan's guidance? A disembodied voice tells Luke to "use the Force." That's hardly guidance.

Also, Vader shoots at Luke and misses because of Luke's plot armor. Then Han swoops in and shoots one of Vader's wingman. A couple of seconds later, the other wingman flies into Vader and he spins out of control.

That's pretty much what I said. He makes the run, takes the shot and then- as I said- doesn't last much longer. But he survives the run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Also, Vader shoots at Luke and misses because of Luke's plot armor. Then Han swoops in and shoots one of Vader's wingman. A couple of seconds later, the other wingman flies into Vader and he spins out of control.

So what? He also fails to kill Wedge. And we still have Luke being saved by Han. The implication is clear- without Han Luke was going to get killed.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
[Luke had one big feat in 'A New Hope'. He blew up the death star with obi wan's guidance and han's constant help. His hand had to be held for most of the film.

Yeah, Luke did the thing that other characters said was impossible and the best pilot in the squadron failed to do.

Obi-Wan's guidance? A disembodied voice tells Luke to "use the Force." That's hardly guidance.

Also, Vader shoots at Luke and misses because of Luke's plot armor. Then Han swoops in and shoots one of Vader's wingman. A couple of seconds later, the other wingman flies into Vader and he spins out of control.

If you watch every time Vader kills a Rebel his shots fire and eventually hit his target, like the lasers follow a point that eventually goes over the target. He does this to all pilots, thankfully Luke survived before the lasers hit him unlike vaders previous victims.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

I know, right? Kinda kills the Mary Sue argument when you remind people that these guys can use magic.

Except I hate anakin child for being mary sue too. In fact him doing what he does is a huge complaint by many...

Here is the problem with the Mary Sue argument in Star Wars. It is almost impossible to have a Mary Sue when you have something like The Force. It is in nearly all living things(or all living things, not sure if they got rid of that in the new canon) and is a force of Fate. These characters often do not have the ability to do these things normally but find that when push comes to shove, the Force gives them a way out.

In reality you should be yelling "DEUS EX MACHINA" and "THE FORCE IS OP" instead of "EVERYBODY IS A MARY SUE".

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Yeah till she flutters her eyes for a few seconds and reads the future or something and then totally kicks kylo ren's ***. You know training herself to use force abilities that not only do we not know exist yet but training herself abilities on the spot to beat somebody with training (complete or not) from both luke skywalker and snoke which at this point are basically the top tier jedi left.

Keep in mind the only clue she has she might be a jedi is when the light saber chose her. She demonstrates powers she shouldn't even know exist yet. This is absurd. Luke had one big feat in 'A New Hope'. He blew up the death star with obi wan's guidance and han's constant help. His hand had to be held for most of the film.
.

Actually, Kylo told her she was able to use the force when he was interrogating her. She also realized she could use the power when she was able to resist him. At that point, I would have been trying absolutely everything possible to get out of that situation, which is pretty much what she did when she managed to pull a jedi mind trick. (See, I am relating to the character with my will to survive and adapt!)

Are you considering it a major feat to beat a guy who has been shot with a blaster and hit with a light saber? I mean, she got her butt kicked for the majority of that fight. It would make sense for her to gain the upper hand the longer the fight went on as he was losing blood.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I won't lie that the rebel pilot in the new movie is kinda mary sue but he had the training. There's a difference. Also Kylo Ren extracts secrets from him and makes him look bad and he does need to be rescued.

Finn did all of maybe one or two things to help out and usually stumbles around to do so. Sure he helps but he isn't good at everything.

New girl does well at just about everything (pilot, force powers and even some dueling). Keep this in mind luke wasn't fully trained and vader beat the crap out of him in 'empire strikes back'. Rei's already beaten the #2 villain of the movies in the first movie. What more is left? You made her too strong.

We get it, a girl being good at things in a universe with space wizards, robot soccer balls, and planet-sized laser guns is just too unrealistic.

 Kojiro wrote:
That's pretty much what I said. He makes the run, takes the shot and then- as I said- doesn't last much longer. But he survives the run.

Vader never shoots at him in the trench, unlike Luke who Vader completely misses even though he has him targeted.

Seriously, go back and watch it... Vader shots at and misses Luke before Han intervenes.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

I know, right? Kinda kills the Mary Sue argument when you remind people that these guys can use magic.

Except I hate anakin child for being mary sue too. In fact him doing what he does is a huge complaint by many...

Here is the problem with the Mary Sue argument in Star Wars. It is almost impossible to have a Mary Sue when you have something like The Force. It is in nearly all living things(or all living things, not sure if they got rid of that in the new canon) and is a force of Fate. These characters often do not have the ability to do these things normally but find that when push comes to shove, the Force gives them a way out.

Yes but should be used sparingly. Like Luke, who gradually uses the force over 3 films. Rey does what Luke does in 1 film covering days... Luke's transition takes years and years.

Rey would have been fine if her abilities grew gradually like Luke's. Right now she's worse than Kiddie Anakin, well in my opinion anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

That's pretty much what I said. He makes the run, takes the shot and then- as I said- doesn't last much longer. But he survives the run.Vader never shoots at him in the trench, unlike Luke who Vader completely misses even though he has him targeted.

Seriously, go back and watch it... Vader shots at and misses Luke before Han intervenes.

Enoguh acusations of sexism yea? Nobody has mentioned gender...

Also watch again... Vader does miss before hitting his targets. Source: I just watched the first Y-Wing die just how Luke would have had Han not saved him.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I won't lie that the rebel pilot in the new movie is kinda mary sue but he had the training. There's a difference. Also Kylo Ren extracts secrets from him and makes him look bad and he does need to be rescued.

Finn did all of maybe one or two things to help out and usually stumbles around to do so. Sure he helps but he isn't good at everything.

New girl does well at just about everything (pilot, force powers and even some dueling). Keep this in mind luke wasn't fully trained and vader beat the crap out of him in 'empire strikes back'. Rei's already beaten the #2 villain of the movies in the first movie. What more is left? You made her too strong.

Qui-Gon Jinn: "There's always a bigger fish."

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

I know, right? Kinda kills the Mary Sue argument when you remind people that these guys can use magic.

Except I hate anakin child for being mary sue too. In fact him doing what he does is a huge complaint by many...

Here is the problem with the Mary Sue argument in Star Wars. It is almost impossible to have a Mary Sue when you have something like The Force. It is in nearly all living things(or all living things, not sure if they got rid of that in the new canon) and is a force of Fate. These characters often do not have the ability to do these things normally but find that when push comes to shove, the Force gives them a way out.

Yes but should be used sparingly. Like Luke, who gradually uses the force over 3 films. Rey does what Luke does in 1 film covering days... Luke's transition takes years and years.

Rey would have been fine if her abilities grew gradually like Luke's. Right now she's worse than Kiddie Anakin, well in my opinion anyway.

You are completely forgetting a very important theory. The one where she was actually a Padawan before she came to Jakku.

Do not even pull the sexist card on me. I liked Ripley, the black woman in 'Firefly' and in ways sarah conner in terminator 2 (even if I found it kind of funny that her personality changed but she had time to train and change from movie to movie).

Rei is too perfect and luke was not. I disliked Anakin too. Do not pull the sexist card on people just because somebody doesn't like one of the only female leads in a movie. It may just mean she was written poorly rather than somebody hating women or disliking strong women.

Besides if people are always complaining about women having crappy characters maybe me hating female characters in books in movies is more because of that than reality if it's even true. Course everything and everybody is sexist as long as they're male and probably white because why not.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I won't lie that the rebel pilot in the new movie is kinda mary sue but he had the training. There's a difference. Also Kylo Ren extracts secrets from him and makes him look bad and he does need to be rescued.

Finn did all of maybe one or two things to help out and usually stumbles around to do so. Sure he helps but he isn't good at everything.

New girl does well at just about everything (pilot, force powers and even some dueling). Keep this in mind luke wasn't fully trained and vader beat the crap out of him in 'empire strikes back'. Rei's already beaten the #2 villain of the movies in the first movie. What more is left? You made her too strong.

Qui-Gon Jinn: "There's always a bigger fish."

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The Force is strong in Luke, much like his father, who as a child was able to pilot a naboo star fighter in to combat, not get shot down, and destroy a trade federation ship.

You know, I TRY to forget that, but you just have to bring it up...

I know, right? Kinda kills the Mary Sue argument when you remind people that these guys can use magic.

Except I hate anakin child for being mary sue too. In fact him doing what he does is a huge complaint by many...

Here is the problem with the Mary Sue argument in Star Wars. It is almost impossible to have a Mary Sue when you have something like The Force. It is in nearly all living things(or all living things, not sure if they got rid of that in the new canon) and is a force of Fate. These characters often do not have the ability to do these things normally but find that when push comes to shove, the Force gives them a way out.

Yes but should be used sparingly. Like Luke, who gradually uses the force over 3 films. Rey does what Luke does in 1 film covering days... Luke's transition takes years and years.

Rey would have been fine if her abilities grew gradually like Luke's. Right now she's worse than Kiddie Anakin, well in my opinion anyway.

You are completely forgetting a very important theory. The one where she was actually a Padawan before she came to Jakku.

Wow, a padawan until she was 5... yep she learned all she needed as a 5 year old (or 7 year old). That's also a theory, is that a part of the movie? No.

It is a part of the movie if it turns out to be true. It is also something that a lot of people are betting on. They pretty much came right out and told us in the vision she had Also, the younglings in the Jedi Temple in the prequels were very adept in the force and lightsaber combat.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
It is a part of the movie if it turns out to be true. It is also something that a lot of people are betting on. They pretty much came right out and told us in the vision she had Also, the younglings in the Jedi Temple in the prequels were very adept in the force and lightsaber combat.

IF. IF it turns out to be true.

As it stands the character is bad (in my view) unless they pull some great writing out of them to fix it later.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
It is a part of the movie if it turns out to be true. It is also something that a lot of people are betting on. They pretty much came right out and told us in the vision she had Also, the younglings in the Jedi Temple in the prequels were very adept in the force and lightsaber combat.

Yeah but she never even mentions it. She doesn't totally seem to even know she's a jedi. Also when has a padawan used jedi mind trick. This was so advanced only obi wan, qui gon jinn, luke and I'm sure yoda (though we never see him do it) could do it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
It is a part of the movie if it turns out to be true. It is also something that a lot of people are betting on. They pretty much came right out and told us in the vision she had Also, the younglings in the Jedi Temple in the prequels were very adept in the force and lightsaber combat.

Yeah but she never even mentions it. She doesn't totally seem to even know she's a jedi. Also when has a padawan used jedi mind trick. This was so advanced only obi wan, qui gon jinn, luke and I'm sure yoda (though we never see him do it) could do it.

Um, just because we only see certain people do it in the films does not mean it is something difficult to do. In what is considered legends now, the jedi mind trick was something that almost all jedi knew how to do to some extent.

Where are we getting this idea that Rey is perfect at everything? She learns to fly the Falcon through the "crash enough times that you finally figure it out" approach. Her clever idea to save Han by closing the doors is a spectacular failure that almost gets everyone killed. She has to learn the hard way that you should probably take the safety off before trying to shoot someone. She breaks down and runs away because she had a scary dream, and gets captured without a fight. She initially loses the duel with Kylo Ren, gets backed against a cliff with the killing blow about to land, and only survives because he tries to turn her to the dark side instead of just finishing her off.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
New girl does well at just about everything (pilot, force powers and even some dueling). Keep this in mind luke wasn't fully trained and vader beat the crap out of him in 'empire strikes back'. Rei's already beaten the #2 villain of the movies in the first movie. What more is left? You made her too strong.

The #2 villain isn't saying much. It was shown already that Hux found him more of an irritation and didn't have the respect Vader had.

Then, at the point he fought Rey he had killed his father in a very emotionally confusing situation, was gutshot by a fething bowcaster and had taken a lightsaber hit to the shoulder. He wasn't in a good condition either physically or emotionally and he still outfought Rey for the majority of the fight - she spent most of it running away. Add to that he's not even fully trained - Snoke says he wants him back to complete his training.

 Peregrine wrote:
Where are we getting this idea that Rey is perfect at everything? She learns to fly the Falcon through the "crash enough times that you finally figure it out" approach. Her clever idea to save Han by closing the doors is a spectacular failure that almost gets everyone killed. She has to learn the hard way that you should probably take the safety off before trying to shoot someone. She breaks down and runs away because she had a scary dream, and gets captured without a fight. She initially loses the duel with Kylo Ren, gets backed against a cliff with the killing blow about to land, and only survives because he tries to turn her to the dark side instead of just finishing her off.

I dunno man, all of that screams Mary Sue to me. It was all part of the plan.

 Peregrine wrote:
Where are we getting this idea that Rey is perfect at everything? She learns to fly the Falcon through the "crash enough times that you finally figure it out" approach. Her clever idea to save Han by closing the doors is a spectacular failure that almost gets everyone killed. She has to learn the hard way that you should probably take the safety off before trying to shoot someone. She breaks down and runs away because she had a scary dream, and gets captured without a fight. She initially loses the duel with Kylo Ren, gets backed against a cliff with the killing blow about to land, and only survives because he tries to turn her to the dark side instead of just finishing her off.

Shhhh, you're ruining it for all the angry nerds.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
It is a part of the movie if it turns out to be true. It is also something that a lot of people are betting on. They pretty much came right out and told us in the vision she had Also, the younglings in the Jedi Temple in the prequels were very adept in the force and lightsaber combat.

Yeah but she never even mentions it. She doesn't totally seem to even know she's a jedi. Also when has a padawan used jedi mind trick. This was so advanced only obi wan, qui gon jinn, luke and I'm sure yoda (though we never see him do it) could do it.

Um, just because we only see certain people do it in the films does not mean it is something difficult to do. In what is considered legends now, the jedi mind trick was something that almost all jedi knew how to do to some extent.

And yet Anakin never once used it throughout all his fights and luke even having seen it never used it until 'return of the jedi' when we waited 3 movies for him to become awesome.

-------

Yes, yes, rei stumbled around and manages to still out-do everybody. That's totally not mary-sue. Oh wait except it is!

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Yes, yes, rei stumbled around and manages to still out-do everybody. That's totally not mary-sue. Oh wait except it is!

Define "everybody". Because last time I checked she didn't out-do everybody using the conventional definition. For example, she did absolutely nothing to help Poe shoot down any TIEs. But I'm sure you have a definition of "out-did everybody" that isn't just "a female character was competent in some areas and accomplished some stuff".

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Yes, yes, rei stumbled around and manages to still out-do everybody. That's totally not mary-sue. Oh wait except it is!

No, actually it isn't.

Calling a character a Mary Sue is like calling a political opponent a fascist; the original term has been completely neutered of all its meaning and is just used as an insult for someone you don't like.

Boy do I look forward to this argument for the next two years.....

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Boy do I look forward to this argument for the next two years.....

Unless of course the next movie keeps it up without explanation, in which case it will be forever I think. (by forever I mean long time).

But yes it's going to be a pain. I wonder what the final verdict will be in 10 years.

She is the MVP of the whole freaking show with a possible exception to Poe (they really didn't show the old cast doing much did they). She beats down a trained jedi (complete training or not), saves finn (who is more of a damsel in distress than anything), she's a decent pilot without much if any possible training considering her previous occupation as scavenger and she jedi mind tricks without much knowledge that she's even probably a jedi.

Oh but please claim sexism considering I love lots of strong female characters like Dizzy being the best girl in Starship troopers (who btw killed a big bug with a grenade toss), the black woman in firefly, sarah conner in terminator 2 and ripley in aliens.

Also if we're claiming being offensive towards women and possibly also black people I was actually disappointed with how pathetic I found Finn. He really should be doing more than he is and yet I just couldn't like him.

Believe it or not I actually support the supposed fan theory that Poe and Finn are gay for each other. It makes infinitely more sense than the Rei and Finn relationship. People might just be projecting what they want to see though. Maybe those two guys are just really good buddies though. Disney would totally never allow a gay relationship though and I'm not sure everybody would accept it in a family film these days (may take some years before they do but I fully expect it at some point).