Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/12/24 07:36:02
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
The same reason a clockwork orange, or any good film is. Pacing is very different based on each movie. In terms of this movie the pacing is average. Its not rushing as much as some people make it out to be. I didn't sit in my seat confused at how far we had come. We had seen a journey. A full journey mind you of a character. Plus its not like she tried her mind trick the first time and succeeded, she tried it four times. before getting it right. Its very much like what happened in harry potter where all of a sudden oh he can ride a broom. People would say that is fine! But oh when a jedi has a natural ability like that? It is terrible pacing? How is that terrible pacing? Harry had no idea what magic was and he could do that. We weren't explained that for a very long time. Rey may be on the same page here as harry. Infact your unoriginal complaint has no baring in this day and age. Where movie after movie is either a sequel or a reboot or a prequel. This movie is very different from starwars the new hope. Infact its a omage to the entire original trilogy. Look at the first scene tatooine, but then it moves onto empire strikes back, and then return of the jedi, with the new jedi facing off against a villian. It was a natural progression of a story. If you look at the original pacing of the new hope it follows the same path, but diverges quite a bit. If you forget the details it is still a pretty different story. As in the original the entire group gets captured in the original. In this one they were captured for.... 15 seconds? And then the rebels arrived!
So I do not think the pacing is bad. I am a writer, and I don't think it is bad, terrible as you say. It has problems. Oh hell it has problems. But it is not as bad as you have been saying it is. It is a great movie because it does something else. And goes on a path that we haven't seen before. And leads us down an interesting road.
Yes, pacing is different from film to film. Would you care to point out where I said that was not the case? Force Awakens was absolutely rushed, there is zero buildup for any of the events in this movie. Not really sure where Harry Potter fits into this, I never watched those and if it has the same problem as this film does that doesn't magically make Force Awakens better. Harry Potter being able to magically do something on his first try has absolutely no bearing on my capacity to accept that Rey can do all the gak that she does, it just means there's another badly written character out there in another fictional universe.
To address your point on sequels and reboots, the fact that these exist does not make lazy writing any more acceptable. Sequels should break new ground and do something different with their characters and setting, and this is something Force Awakens does not do at all because it's so busy ripping off A New Hope. You think this movie is "very different" from a New Hope? You think a child of destiny on a desert planet that doesn't know she can use the Force, who is caring for a droid that is looking for its master while holding very sensitive information, who escapes said desert planet on the Falcon, starting a series of events where Han Solo has to break into an imperial base that happens to be a planet destroying super weapon to break out a female prisoner, while a small team of pilots exploit an absurd vulnerability in said super weapon to destroy it, is "very different" from A New Hope? Come on, man.
The movie certainly does not lead us down a path we haven't seen before. That's the whole problem. The Force Awakens absolutely wreaks of the creative bankruptcy that went into its development. It follows A New Hope religiously, and that's just crap. If I wanted to watch A New Hope again, I'd pop in my DVD. I wanted a continuation of the story, not a retelling.
EDIT: Also, saying Rey did not succeed the first time she did the mind trick does not at all address the issue of how on earth she would know how to do it or how she would even know about it in the first place. Trying it 4 times over the course of the entire film would have been easier to swallow, particularly if there was a mentor to guide her, but in the span of 30 seconds, with no prior knowledge of the ability, and no one to actually teach her, makes it seem totally ridiculous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 07:41:54
2015/12/24 07:45:06
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
It's a testiment to the Star Wars saga if it can produce such powerful pro and con sentiments from people.
I admit I had a couple issues with the show, such as why is the failed Death Star strategy continually employed? Lots of resources and time invested, only to be flushed down the toilet by the same dang X Wing attack every single time.
How did some backwater waif pick up Jedi powers so fast? Hopefully, this will be better explained as the other movies come out. Perhaps some Jedi pulled a Spock and told her to "remember", with the trigger being her faced with a Sith.
That being said, I did like the show overall, and expect that the people writing it aren't living in a vacuum and will have anticipated and will answer these questions as the story unfolds.
2015/12/24 08:02:03
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Everytime that kylo ren did something to Rey, she sorta copied him. She was getting training from a violent situation. Everytime she does something she is copying him. So Rey is a copycat jedi?
By the looks of it. I am willing to accept that.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2015/12/24 08:06:29
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
creeping-deth87 wrote: EDIT: Also, saying Rey did not succeed the first time she did the mind trick does not at all address the issue of how on earth she would know how to do it or how she would even know about it in the first place.
Maybe it's just so easy that every jedi figures out how to do it (and defend against it) within a few minutes of starting their training. The argument that Rey shouldn't have been able to use the jedi mind trick is based on a completely unsupported assumption that it's actually difficult to do. Take that assumption away and it's a lot harder to object to her using it successfully.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/12/24 08:09:20
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
creeping-deth87 wrote: EDIT: Also, saying Rey did not succeed the first time she did the mind trick does not at all address the issue of how on earth she would know how to do it or how she would even know about it in the first place.
Maybe it's just so easy that every jedi figures out how to do it (and defend against it) within a few minutes of starting their training. The argument that Rey shouldn't have been able to use the jedi mind trick is based on a completely unsupported assumption that it's actually difficult to do. Take that assumption away and it's a lot harder to object to her using it successfully.
That and we have no idea how long it takes to use those powers.
Or how long the training actually is. I mean if a padawan and idiot like Anakin in Clone wars could do it. An intelligent and copycat woman like Rey could do it from learning from someone who was clearly trained in the force.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2015/12/24 08:11:12
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Umm he is right, that was my point. The reason I think Rey is bad (along with many issues of the movie) is solely down to the pacing.
Exactly. But because you think her displaying full knight or master level skills without even an afternoon of training (or the necessary years), you must have some ulterior reason for disliking it.
I do think it is funny a bunch of people are angry that a girl was able to get basic powers of space magic in a shorter amount of time than any male character has. In a galaxy filled with lazers, space magic and everything people are angry at someone learning magic in a short amount of time? bah!
And there it is. Because she's a girl. Nice attempt to conflate fantasy with internal consistency though. And also a good attempt to attack the critic by claiming they're just angry (and sexist). Double points!
The thing is- brace yourself- Star Wars actually has some history and canon. Lots of it actually. In that canon, it is well established that the 'space magic powers' take YEARS to become competent in. Years. And that's with a teacher. Anakin for example took five years just to graduate to Padawan, and another five to make Knight. And he was the Chosen One, with the super midiclorian count (you can hate it all you like, it's canon), and with the guidance of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Rey on the other hand goes from not believing the Jedi existed to Knight/Master level powers inside of two days. That violates everything we know about learning to use force powers. Or to put it another way, it makes Rey a very special snowflake.
If Rey had been powerful but unfocused. If her fear had let her knock back Ren when he pursued her, or natural force absorb powers made a blaster bolt only superficially damage her, if she'd resisted the probe violently, or even thrown crude force lightning I could buy it. She's raw power. It's the use of disciplined techniques that sticks out. Just as it sticks out that she is so good with the saber out of nowhere. Again, if she'd been instinctively force pushing or reacting to attacks by pulling things into Ren's way to knock him off balance I could buy it. Some instinctive force speed or a force leap would be cool. But she just gets better with a sword. Indeed, one of the defenses is that she has previous melee skills which are transferable. Except we see her get pushed back to the edge. She clearly does not possess such skills. Until she has a moment, adds the 'Light Saber Combat skill to her sheet' and proceeds to kick Ren's ass. But that's just another example of going from unskilled to skilled. In this case literally in about six seconds.
Once again, Rey was a good idea but the mark was overshot. She's far from the only problem with the movie but as the central character the mistakes around her are far more front and center.
Umm he is right, that was my point. The reason I think Rey is bad (along with many issues of the movie) is solely down to the pacing.
Exactly. But because you think her displaying full knight or master level skills without even an afternoon of training (or the necessary years), you must have some ulterior reason for disliking it.
I do think it is funny a bunch of people are angry that a girl was able to get basic powers of space magic in a shorter amount of time than any male character has. In a galaxy filled with lazers, space magic and everything people are angry at someone learning magic in a short amount of time? bah!
And there it is. Because she's a girl. Nice attempt to conflate fantasy with internal consistency though. And also a good attempt to attack the critic by claiming they're just angry (and sexist). Double points!
I do think it is funny you focused on that. When I said a girl got a power better and quicker than most. So what. She used a jedi mind trick, in other stories, that would be considered normal.
The thing is- brace yourself- Star Wars actually has some history and canon. Lots of it actually. In that canon, it is well established that the 'space magic powers' take YEARS to become competent in. Years. And that's with a teacher. Anakin for example took five years just to graduate to Padawan, and another five to make Knight. And he was the Chosen One, with the super midiclorian count (you can hate it all you like, it's canon), and with the guidance of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Rey on the other hand goes from not believing the Jedi existed to Knight/Master level powers inside of two days. That violates everything we know about learning to use force powers. Or to put it another way, it makes Rey a very special snowflake.
If Rey had been powerful but unfocused. If her fear had let her knock back Ren when he pursued her, or natural force absorb powers made a blaster bolt only superficially damage her, if she'd resisted the probe violently, or even thrown crude force lightning I could buy it. She's raw power. It's the use of disciplined techniques that sticks out. Just as it sticks out that she is so good with the saber out of nowhere. Again, if she'd been instinctively force pushing or reacting to attacks by pulling things into Ren's way to knock him off balance I could buy it. Some instinctive force speed or a force leap would be cool. But she just gets better with a sword. Indeed, one of the defenses is that she has previous melee skills which are transferable. Except we see her get pushed back to the edge. She clearly does not possess such skills. Until she has a moment, adds the 'Light Saber Combat skill to her sheet' and proceeds to kick Ren's ass. But that's just another example of going from unskilled to skilled. In this case literally in about six seconds.
Once again, Rey was a good idea but the mark was overshot. She's far from the only problem with the movie but as the central character the mistakes around her are far more front and center.
So her ability to grab a lightsaber and her ability to use a jedi mindtrick, on an incredibly weak minded individual is completely unbelievable in a world filled with space magic?
But we aren't sure anymore about how long it takes because the EU is not canon if it wasn't on screen it isn't canon or if it isn't on the list for star wars canon, then it isn't canon.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2015/12/24 08:21:20
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Maybe it's just so easy that every jedi figures out how to do it (and defend against it) within a few minutes of starting their training. The argument that Rey shouldn't have been able to use the jedi mind trick is based on a completely unsupported assumption that it's actually difficult to do.
My main objection is that she even knew it was possible. Again, if say Kylo Ren had left the room and she struggled for a bit, maybe panicked (because hey, you've been captured by the First Order, it's ok to be a but stressed) and started shouting 'Let me go!', calling upon her latent ability. While she struggles futilely, the stormtrooper, caught in the general vicinity of her blossoming power, comes over and releases her. She looks puzzled and still a little frightened, orders the stormtrooper to leave (and drop his weapon), which he does. She's now confused, has a slightly better grip on her powers and the plot can continue without having to just have her pull- for lack of a better word- a magic spell out of her ass.
Kojiro wrote: Exactly. But because you think her displaying full knight or master level skills without even an afternoon of training (or the necessary years), you must have some ulterior reason for disliking it.
How exactly did she display knight or master level skills?
The thing is- brace yourself- Star Wars actually has some history and canon. Lots of it actually. In that canon, it is well established that the 'space magic powers' take YEARS to become competent in. Years.
Or it takes a few minutes, maybe hours at most. Remember where Luke is learning to block blaster shots with a sword? Or where he manages to make a torpedo shot that his veteran squadron leader missed, with nothing more than a few words of encouragement from a dead guy?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kojiro wrote: My main objection is that she even knew it was possible.
But how do we know that it's a rare thing? Maybe in Star Wars "jedi mind tricks someone into an embarrassing prank" is a regular feature in comedy shows, and Rey just decided she had nothing to lose by trying.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 08:26:43
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/12/24 08:30:45
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Don't forget that Luke was blocking lasers blindfolded the second time he ever activated his lightsaber.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/24 08:38:04
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Remember when Han tells Rey and Finn that the stories are all true? Rey lights up. She knows the stories man. She knows.
2. How did she learn faster than Luke?
Luke was a slow learner. He had to "unlearn what he had learned." He'd been taught that things are impossible to do and the force was a hoax.
In plenty of star wars stories children have picked up enough force tricks to do what Rey did. Younglings. And if she did it without training than she obviously has a strong affinity with the force. Lets find out what she does with it instead of not believing it's possible.
2015/12/24 08:40:43
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
People with a special connection to The Force can sense and access it in ways normal Force Sensitives can't, including letting the Force take over. We also don't know much about Rey at this point, she may be a Jason Bourne'esqe figure where she had training before being mind-wiped. There are still two movies (at the very least) so it is up in the air at this point.
Finn is still the best character.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2015/12/24 08:42:33
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Asherian Command wrote: I do think it is funny you focused on that. When I said a girl got a power better and quicker than most. So what. She used a jedi mind trick, in other stories, that would be considered normal.
You gave it it's own paragraph and made it the focus, not me. You made the comparison between male and female, not me. You didn't say 'than most'. You said 'than any male'. YOU made it a gender issue by saying the complaints were because she was a girl.
And the presence of the trick itself isn't the problem. It's that she performed it like she just remembered she had that power when she should have no idea it's possible.
So her ability to grab a lightsaber and her ability to use a jedi mindtrick, on an incredibly weak minded individual is completely unbelievable in a world filled with space magic?
I've already- in the above post- given an example of how I would have liked to see her pull of the mind trick. But again you're trying to say 'It's fantasy (in space) therefore internal consistency need not apply. She's force sensitive, so she's in the door. But she's raw and untrained. Her displays of power should be limited to such. Subtle mental manipulation (even granting the stormtrooper is weak minded and his conditioning does nothing) is about as far from 'raw power' as you get. An Anakin style 'Noooooo' (sans the 'nooo') moment where she broke the restraints and KO'd the trooper would have been far more inline with her talent. Her emotions get the best of her, she freaks out and the force flows through her. That would have been fine with me. I don't know if others who see Rey's power climb as far too sharp agree.
But we aren't sure anymore about how long it takes because the EU is not canon if it wasn't on screen it isn't canon or if it isn't on the list for star wars canon, then it isn't canon.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here exactly. Presuming it's learning the mind trick there's no canonical evidence. The most we can go on is that when we see Ashoka try it- as a padawan- it fails. Every successful attempt is made by a Knight or Master.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/24 09:06:41
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
How I saw the mind trick was her trying something she had heard from stories about the Jedi. She clearly knows about like and han and gets really excited when told the stories are true.
When she's locked up she attempts a hail Mary and tries to copy what she has heard about in the stories.
2015/12/24 09:34:28
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
a) Both new protagonists are casted to appeal to the PC crowd - it's not a big secret with them being female and black. It isn't a point to trouble yourself with it. Accept it and move on to the characters themselves.
b) Rey is about as Mary Sue as you can get. Suddenly being more adapt than most Jedi we were made familiar with in previous movies, overpowering the villain in the very first movie. Come on. The problem is that I can impossibly root for such a character. She already is too powerful, what believable (!) trouble could she get into? That's not interesting at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 09:48:48
Glad to see you respond to this one Peregrine. Don't suppose you'll be conceding the fight scene? The one Rey 'lost'?
Peregrine wrote: How exactly did she display knight or master level skills?
Every successful mind trick seen on screen is done by a Knight or Master. At least one Padawan- Ashoka- has tried and failed. And she was quite strong. Let's grant for a moment that the power is, at the least, not a beginner power. And as said, my issue is more the way she did it- the technique- than that she possesses the raw force potential to overpower minds. I'm fine with her overpowering weak willed people- just don't exactly copy the jedi master from the first movie. Doing so draws parallels- it says this character has similar powers to Obi-Wan. Which maybe is deliberate, but if it is they're deliberately inflating her skill level. I dislike that.
One of the reasons Ren starts out so impressive is we've never seen anyone catch a blaster bolt. We don't expect neophyte force users to be demonstrating never before seen powers. Masters like Qui Gon and Plagueis might pioneer new techniques but they're at the top of their game. If sensing an attack and turning around to catch the bolt (and the firer) after the bolt was fired were a common ability, the clones would have had a significantly harder time eradicating Jedi Masters.
Or it takes a few minutes, maybe hours at most. Remember where Luke is learning to block blaster shots with a sword?
Now that is a skill we've seen Padawans display extreme competency in. Which suggests that is easier than the subtle mental manipulation we have seen a padawan fail. Ashoka can certainly do the parry trick even as a padawan.
Or where he manages to make a torpedo shot that his veteran squadron leader missed, with nothing more than a few words of encouragement from a dead guy?
The shot was never impossible, just difficult. In fact the concern is whether or not they can pull up in time. Luke is confident it'll be just like bulls eyeing a womp rat back home- he isn't even worried about the difficulty of the shot.
But how do we know that it's a rare thing? Maybe in Star Wars "jedi mind tricks someone into an embarrassing prank" is a regular feature in comedy shows, and Rey just decided she had nothing to lose by trying.
Leaving aside the fact the Jedi haven't been a force in the galaxy for about 50 years at this point and are considered myth, that's what you're going with? That the jedi used to subvert people's free will for comedy television and Rey's been watching these in her burnt out AT-AT carcass with her straw pilot doll?
This thread is getting very hard to keep up with. :(
If you think Rey is great and her transition from nobody scavenger to TK using, mind probing, mind tricking lightsaber duelist- with no mentor- in the space of a day or two is fine... eh. If they wanted to remake the original trilogy, or reimagine it- whatever, the borrowed pretty heavily- and have Rey be the one who goes from youthful idealist to badass Jedi over the course of three films I would be totally down with that. I enjoyed it the first time and I'd enjoy it a second time. Throw all the Hero's Journeys at me you want, I love them. Daisy Ridley in no way makes appreciating that journey harder. But I want to see her ascend to greatness through time, peril, adversity but also training and guidance.
On that I agree with you. I saw the film again today (we had booked tickets from before the first time I went to see it) with my partner she thought he was the most adorable thing she's ever seen. It's a miracle she didn't pick one up while were out.
Sigvatr wrote: a) Both new protagonists are casted to appeal to the PC crowd - it's not a big secret with them being female and black. It isn't a point to trouble yourself with it. Accept it and move on to the characters themselves.
Yeah, having one black guy and a white girl is totally just appealing to the "PC crowd." I'm assuming you sat in during the casting meetings so you could confirm this?
b) Rey is about as Mary Sue as you can get. Suddenly being more adapt than most Jedi we were made familiar with in previous movies, overpowering the villain in the very first movie. Come on. The problem is that I can impossibly root for such a character. She already is too powerful, what believable (!) trouble could she get into? That's not interesting at all.
Sigh... Still beating this dead horse, are we?
Yet again, none of this is surprising considering the source.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/24 10:19:08
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Sigvatr wrote: a) Both new protagonists are casted to appeal to the PC crowd - it's not a big secret with them being female and black. It isn't a point to trouble yourself with it. Accept it and move on to the characters themselves.
And you base this on what exactly? The mere fact that they aren't white men?
b) Rey is about as Mary Sue as you can get. Suddenly being more adapt than most Jedi we were made familiar with in previous movies, overpowering the villain in the very first movie. Come on. The problem is that I can impossibly root for such a character. She already is too powerful, what believable (!) trouble could she get into? That's not interesting at all.
Yep, let's just keep bringing this up, and ignore the places where she fails (which we've pointed out multiple times).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kojiro wrote: Glad to see you respond to this one Peregrine. Don't suppose you'll be conceding the fight scene? The one Rey 'lost'?
Why would I concede it? She lost the fight up until Ren decided to try to turn her to the dark side instead of just finishing her off. She came back and swung the fight in her favor, but she wasn't able to finish it and the fight overall was hardly a decisive win for her.
Every successful mind trick seen on screen is done by a Knight or Master. At least one Padawan- Ashoka- has tried and failed. And she was quite strong. Let's grant for a moment that the power is, at the least, not a beginner power. And as said, my issue is more the way she did it- the technique- than that she possesses the raw force potential to overpower minds. I'm fine with her overpowering weak willed people- just don't exactly copy the jedi master from the first movie. Doing so draws parallels- it says this character has similar powers to Obi-Wan. Which maybe is deliberate, but if it is they're deliberately inflating her skill level. I dislike that.
Is the bit with Ashoka even canon anymore? I admit that I don't know about prequel-era stuff, since I'd prefer to forget that it exists at all. But even if one person fails it doesn't establish that the trick itself is hard. A common theme in magic is that there are different specializations and some people are just bad at particular things. Perhaps for a force user of Rey's kind of talents the jedi mind trick is incredibly easy.
Now that is a skill we've seen Padawans display extreme competency in. Which suggests that is easier than the subtle mental manipulation we have seen a padawan fail. Ashoka can certainly do the parry trick even as a padawan.
Ok, so now we've established that at least some force powers are so simple to learn that a person can go from believing that the jedi are just a myth to successfully using the power with a few minutes of "training". Luke did it with blocking blaster shots, Rey did it with the jedi mind trick.
The shot was never impossible, just difficult. In fact the concern is whether or not they can pull up in time. Luke is confident it'll be just like bulls eyeing a womp rat back home- he isn't even worried about the difficulty of the shot.
I didn't say the shot was impossible, just that Luke managed to succeed where even a far more experienced pilot failed (and, if you consider the novelization to be canon, Luke's first shot at the exhaust port with the targeting computer missed as well). Sure, he boasted about how easy it would be, but Wedge (again, a more experienced pilot) thought he was being an overconfident moron. But the real point here is that Luke never had any formal training in force-aided starfighter combat, he figured it out intuitively while trying desperately not to get shot down by Vader. And, unlike Rey's first jedi mind trick, Luke didn't even have to try and fail before he got it right.
Leaving aside the fact the Jedi haven't been a force in the galaxy for about 50 years at this point and are considered myth, that's what you're going with? That the jedi used to subvert people's free will for comedy television and Rey's been watching these in her burnt out AT-AT carcass with her straw pilot doll?
I didn't say that the jedi actually did it for comedy purposes, it's just an example of how the idea of the jedi mind trick could be fairly common knowledge. People might watch the hypothetical comedy show and think "lol, these jedi myths are great" without believing that it's possible, but Han told Rey that it was all real. So when she's being held prisoner she thinks hey, I might as well try this thing I heard jedi used to be able to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 10:30:46
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/12/24 10:35:16
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
My views on TFA are well known, so I'm not going to flog that dead horse again
Instead, I'll put on my neutral hat and ask a relevant question.
Given that each film will have its own director, does anybody know if the directors got together and agreed on one overall story for the sake of continuity?
Obviously, each film will be shot differently, but has the story arc been agreed on?
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/12/24 10:36:44
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Star wars delivered an enjoyable tale (it has issues) but its as good as any of the others for sheer entertainment.
Can we all stop going round and round with these arguments and enjoy ourselves over the xmas period
Happy Christmas
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: My views on TFA are well known, so I'm not going to flog that dead horse again
Instead, I'll put on my neutral hat and ask a relevant question.
Given that each film will have its own director, does anybody know if the directors got together and agreed on one overall story for the sake of continuity?
Obviously, each film will be shot differently, but has the story arc been agreed on?
I think its the same writer for all 3 main films, and a plot will have been set in stone for the trilogy.
Diff directors will just add flavour to it, ala Irvin Kershner in Empire over Lucas in ANH
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 10:38:14
2015/12/24 10:39:00
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Abrams has said in recent interviews that a couple of the big questions (who exactly are the Knights of Ren, what's the deal with Snoke, how fethed up is Finn, who is Rey's family and are they important) were deliberately left open for future writers to answer. However, I'm willing to bet that the Lucasfilm Story Group probably has a pretty good idea of how everything will go down, I think a lot of the specifics are up in the air.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 10:39:48
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/12/24 10:43:35
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Just saying it;s impossible to have lost a fight and win... You can be on the back foot during a fight for a while then gain the upper hand again but that is not called losing a fight.
Definition of lost:
being something that someone has failed to win: ending in or attended with defeat: destroyed or ruined:
If Rey won the fight she did not lose the fight yes? Was Rey victorious? Then Ren lost the fight not Rey.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 10:44:08
2015/12/24 10:47:48
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Peregrine wrote: Why would I concede it? She lost the fight up until Ren decided to try to turn her to the dark side instead of just finishing her off. She came back and swung the fight in her favor, but she wasn't able to finish it and the fight overall was hardly a decisive win for her.
Peregrine wrote: Sigh. Again, no, she didn't beat him. She survived the second most powerful bad guy. Even though he was already wounded (and clearly suffering the effects of the wound) Rey LOST THE FIGHT.
Come on dude. Ren ends up with his saber destroyed, three lightsaber wounds and on his ass looking up at her. What would you call it? A draw?
Is the bit with Ashoka even canon anymore? I admit that I don't know about prequel-era stuff, since I'd prefer to forget that it exists at all. But even if one person fails it doesn't establish that the trick itself is hard. A common theme in magic is that there are different specializations and some people are just bad at particular things. Perhaps for a force user of Rey's kind of talents the jedi mind trick is incredibly easy.
Yes, it's in Clone Wars, which is canon. You're right a single instance doesn't prove much, but it's telling that one of the strongest padawans failed. Some races are resistant (such as Watto's species and Hutts) but can be overcome with sufficient power. We see at least one canonical example where Obi-Wan, Mace Windu and Anakin defeat an otherwise resistant enemy (Cad Bane). I don't know that force users are particularly adept innately at certain things- maybe they are- but I do know they specialise. But that takes training and years to make oneself stand out, such as Mace Windu's battle focus/saber skills.
Ok, so now we've established that at least some force powers are so simple to learn that a person can go from believing that the jedi are just a myth to successfully using the power with a few minutes of "training". Luke did it with blocking blaster shots, Rey did it with the jedi mind trick.
We've established no such thing. Ashoka entered the Jedi order at the age of three. It took her eleven years to become a padawan and demonstrate the skills we see in Clone Wars. That she might possess such skills after more than a decade of training hardly seems impressive. And don't forget, Luke was not only flawed, but he was in a comfortable environment, with a teacher. And he still got shot. His session did not even remotely put him on par with Ashoka. Luke didn't even feel confident using his saber on Bespin against a single firing stormtrooper. Rescuing Leia, Han and Chewie would certainly qualify as incentive to use such a power if he possessed it.
I didn't say the shot was impossible, just that Luke managed to succeed where even a far more experienced pilot failed (and, if you consider the novelization to be canon, Luke's first shot at the exhaust port with the targeting computer missed as well). Sure, he boasted about how easy it would be, but Wedge (again, a more experienced pilot) thought he was being an overconfident moron. But the real point here is that Luke never had any formal training in force-aided starfighter combat, he figured it out intuitively while trying desperately not to get shot down by Vader. And, unlike Rey's first jedi mind trick, Luke didn't even have to try and fail before he got it right.
Sorry, it's been referred to as impossible elsewhere, though I forget exactly where and can't be bothered to search. Wedge may have thought Luke was overconfident, but then Rey thought the Falcon (despite apparently working on it) was garbage. I'd be willing to say both statements were made to disparage the situation at hand. Making the shot is clearly not impossible, nor is the Falcon garbage. Both are just non ideal realities the characters have to deal with.
And again, it's not that Rey has the power to control a weak mind such as the trooper, it's how she did it. Specifically, she did it in the same way we've seen Masters do it. Look at my previous suggestions for how I'd have done it.
I didn't say that the jedi actually did it for comedy purposes, it's just an example of how the idea of the jedi mind trick could be fairly common knowledge.
All legends are true, after all. Like I said, I'd like to have her powers manifest strongly but uncontrolled. Accidental almost. Even better, potentially dangerous to herself and others.
carlos13th wrote: How I saw the mind trick was her trying something she had heard from stories about the Jedi. She clearly knows about like and han and gets really excited when told the stories are true.
When she's locked up she attempts a hail Mary and tries to copy what she has heard about in the stories.
That was what I immediately thought, and one of the reasons I really like that scene and Rey's progression as a whole. She's not basing it on training or teaching, she's just suddenly found out (from the Force connection through Luke's lightsaber) that she is one of the very people she has grown up hearing legends and myths about. So it's very much an act of desperation when she attempts to mind-trick the Stormtrooper, but one that just might work. When it does, she starts wondering what else she can do, all guided not by a master or teacher but by (likely exaggerated) stories. There are no 'rules' or 'limits' that she would pick up from proper Jedi training, it's just her, her determination to survive and The Force working in concert.
The 4 major uses of the Force she displays are all in moments of heightened emotion (that ultimately lends power to The Force) and utter desperation (resisting Ren's probe, escaping the torture chamber, saving/avenging Finn, fighting back against Ren from the edge of defeat). Those factors combined make her display of power perfectly credible in my eyes, prior mind-wiped training or not.
Rey and Finn were really far more human and relatable than anyone in the OT, I think, which is down to superb acting but also some very good writing. If you disagree then I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, but that's where I stand on it. There's really no character or event in this film that feels out of place in the Star Wars setting.
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
