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"I know not whether Cypher is the greatest threat, or the greatest hope for the Imperium. I only pray we can stop him before we find out."





what makes him so dangerous in current fluff?..

No, and the fluff doesn't generally state he is.

He's one of the only people that actually knows what happened with the Dark Angels during the Horus Heresy. He likely knows where the Lion is, why he is there, and how to get him out. He could potentially unit the last of the Fallen with the current Dark Angels and successors, and he may or may not be interested in keep the Imperium afloat.

I get Cypher is a title and that this is the same cypher as the one from the Horus Heresy. However what I don't get is why did he run from the loyalists, everthing I have read so far suggests he wasn't on Luthers side......or were all Angels left on Caliban declared traitors?

Of course you could argue those in the fleet were the traitors...

Daston wrote:
I get Cypher is a title and that this is the same cypher as the one from the Horus Heresy. However what I don't get is why did he run from the loyalists, everthing I have read so far suggests he wasn't on Luthers side......or were all Angels left on Caliban declared traitors?

Of course you could argue those in the fleet were the traitors...

Well, he's a wildcard, with information that nobody wants let out.

In that regard you can make a compelling argument that he is the most dangerous, because there is the least planning that can be done to mitigate his influence. Sure, Abaddon will invade Cadia. But that's all he does. He's a one note villain, that can be defeated with enough force.

Cypher is more subtle, and potentially more destabilizing.

I'd personally rate any number of Alpha and Alpha-plus psykers 'more dangerous' on a mayhem scale. Even some Chapter Masters, heroes and Chaos Champions like Abbadon. Of course you could plausibly argue that Space Marines and Chaos Marines are no longer human, but that group would then include Cypher himself, eh?

As other have suggested, it is quite possible that the knowledge Cypher holds is more dangerous than the man himself. This seems believable to me, though I will say Cypher probably doesn't have The Whole Truth (caps intended) so much as he has valuable knowledge and insights from his vantage point as an inner circle member during Luther's rebellion.

The one thing we know is that Luther's rebellion was shrouded in mystery and misunderstandings. We don't fully understand why Luther rebelled. Some evidence suggests the rebels may have thought they were the loyalists. It's generally accepted that Luther was infused with warp power that allowed him to mortally wound the Lion, and that Luther collapsed and repented when he saw what he had done. It would be fascinating if Cypher could shed light on just those pieces of history.

As to why Cypher ran... well, every non-Loyalist in Caliban got mysteriously scattered through space and time. When they came to their senses they were already being hunted by the Dark Angels and the Inquisition. I'm sure some of more loyalist (or more penitent) bent immediately reported to their closest Dark Angel detachment and promptly got handed over to the tender mercies of the Interrogator Chaplains. Not a good plan unless purgation and execution are on your to-do list.

My two cents.

Cypher is a destabilizing element.
It is unsure through intent or whatever pacts he has made or possibly a curse makes him this way.
The "dangerous" element to him is he carries a sword he never uses.
He is believed to be carrying the broken sword or Lion El'Johnson.
It is believed he is intent on entering the presence of the emperor and tracking his movements loosely point in that direction.

The Mysterious Sword

One of the characteristics that defines the mysterious Cypher is the sword that he carries. On every world where he has been sighted, Cypher has always bore a sword, yet no matter how pressed he has been in combat, he has never yet drawn the blade forth, either to attack or even in his own defence. Even on the rare occasions when both pistols were struck from his hands, the robed figure did not draw his blade. Some of the Unforgiven have speculated that the blade is none other than the famed Lion Sword -– the blade of their Primarch that was lost when the Lion disappeared. Others say it is a new weapon made of the same meteor that produced the metal for the Heavenfall Blades borne by the leaders of the Dark Angels today. There are those within the Inner Circle that speak of the ebon Sword of Luther, the treacherous sword that some believe slew Lion El'Jonson before he vanished into the Warp storm. They whisper that it is Cypher's goal to reach Terra, to finally draw forth that sword for the first and last time, using the weapon to slay the Emperor, striking him down from his Golden Throne. Some few have even suggested that Cypher will kneel before the Emperor, offering him the blessed blade and by this deed seeking final redemption for the Unforgiven. In the end, all that is known for certain is that the sheathed weapon is yet another mystery.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Cypher

I liked this character since he was first introduced, I could look at his initial codex entry and see if I can find more. PM me if interested.

Just got through reading his data slate. He is so dangerous because nobody knows anything about him/them, how to catch him/them, or what he/they intend.

He seems to be a master manipulator, duping both IoM and Chaos. He seems to be impossible to capture, routinely embarrassing even the Deathwing. And he can show up/hide seemingly at will.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a more dangerous individual in terms of 1)getting anywhere and 2)using forces for his own purpose without anyone questioning

From a plot perspective, he's the ultimate Macguffin: it would be disappointing to see what his role even is. The mystery is more intriguing. Also, in a setting with plenty of over the top badass heros, a person that seems to have skills beyond "hit with ax" is a refreshing change.

He is dangerous, but not the most dangerous. He is unpredictable and mysterious, but Alpharius is even more so. And Alpharius has far more resources than Cypher has to support his schemes.
I don't think that even Alpharius is the most dangerous man in the universe though, that reward has to go to Abbaddon. No amount of sneakiness and mysteriousness beats having the entire power of Chaos Undivided at your back.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I'd personally rate any number of Alpha and Alpha-plus psykers 'more dangerous' on a mayhem scale. Even some Chapter Masters, heroes and Chaos Champions like Abbadon. Of course you could plausibly argue that Space Marines and Chaos Marines are no longer human, but that group would then include Cypher himself, eh?

As other have suggested, it is quite possible that the knowledge Cypher holds is more dangerous than the man himself. This seems believable to me, though I will say Cypher probably doesn't have The Whole Truth (caps intended) so much as he has valuable knowledge and insights from his vantage point as an inner circle member during Luther's rebellion.

The one thing we know is that Luther's rebellion was shrouded in mystery and misunderstandings. We don't fully understand why Luther rebelled. Some evidence suggests the rebels may have thought they were the loyalists. It's generally accepted that Luther was infused with warp power that allowed him to mortally wound the Lion, and that Luther collapsed and repented when he saw what he had done. It would be fascinating if Cypher could shed light on just those pieces of history.

As to why Cypher ran... well, every non-Loyalist in Caliban got mysteriously scattered through space and time. When they came to their senses they were already being hunted by the Dark Angels and the Inquisition. I'm sure some of more loyalist (or more penitent) bent immediately reported to their closest Dark Angel detachment and promptly got handed over to the tender mercies of the Interrogator Chaplains. Not a good plan unless purgation and execution are on your to-do list.

My two cents.

Due to Lord Cypher's former position in the Knights of Lupus (who essentially studied daemons for their entire history), he has an excellent knowledge of Chaos and Daemons, he's an exceptionally intelligent and skilled warrior, and he always seems to fight for whoever's going to win. We have examples of this in him joining the Order after it exterminated his entire brotherhood, he joined Luther after Luther and the rest of the resident Chapter (along with the resident Imperial Army) rebelled from Imperial rule, and now he's just kind of dicking around, getting gak done that he feels is necessary, and overall being a nuisance to the Imperium. The knowledge he holds isn't exactly critical - if he were to reveal it to the galaxy, it's not like anybody would believe a traitor like him, and they' likely be shot as soon as they heard it, anyways.

As a lot of 40k lore is based on Arthurian legend (with the Emperor being an Arthur stand-in, and Horus sharing similarities with Mordred) I've always thought Cypher's role can possibly be deduced from there.

In Arthurian stories, there's a character called the Fisher King, who lies wounded on his throne, as his empire rots and falls apart around him. This in itself has become a trope, often called The Wasteland, after a poem by T.S. Elliot that borrow elements from that tale. In this trope, the condition of the kingdom is a mirror of the condition of the king. When he is healthy, the kingdom prospers, yet when he is wounded, the kingdom stagnates and starts to die.

Clearly, the state of the Imperium has taken some inspiration from this.

Within these legends, there exists a knight on a holy quest to heal the king, and thus restore the land. The method changes as often as the knight does in different retellings, but it usually involves either the Holy Grail, asking an undefined question of the king, or inserting the weapon that maimed him back into the wound (or dripping the still fresh blood on the sword back onto the wound)

The sword Cypher carries may be representative of this, though it is problematic as Horus is usually represented with a Lightning Claw and Maul. It's not the Emperor's Sword either, as even though mentions of that vanish in the fluff after the final confrontation with Horus, Cypher's is of a markedly different design.

Some food for thought though.

Cypher most certainly is the most dangerous mofo around since the new book, he is now.kicking around in 30k with full knowledge of the 40k universe, for what reason, who knows yet?

Speaking of the overall danger posed by Cypher you have to remember one thing: In an extreme case where the information on what happened on Caliban would become widely known among the Imperium's leadership it might even lead to declaring DA and their successors Excommunicate Traitoris. Not only because what happened 10k years ago, but because a revelation like that lends a lot of credibility to ALL the other stories and accusations about the nasty stuff the first legion has done since to cover up all the mess they were in.

And legion building is a whole another story... the first legion is still a very much unified entity with a clear command structure and an agenda (not to mention the only one with a live Primarch!) and they comprise about 15% of all the space marine chapters. Are you sure you want to excommunicate that many marines and have another civil war in your hands? At least in the beginning stages of said war, DA would wreck any opposition without breaking a sweat while they try to figure out who is in charge and what the hell is going on. Who knows what would happen after that.

As a lot of 40k lore is based on Arthurian legend (with the Emperor being an Arthur stand-in, and Horus sharing similarities with Mordred) I've always thought Cypher's role can possibly be deduced from there.

In Arthurian stories, there's a character called the Fisher King, who lies wounded on his throne, as his empire rots and falls apart around him. This in itself has become a trope, often called The Wasteland, after a poem by T.S. Elliot that borrow elements from that tale. In this trope, the condition of the kingdom is a mirror of the condition of the king. When he is healthy, the kingdom prospers, yet when he is wounded, the kingdom stagnates and starts to die.

Clearly, the state of the Imperium has taken some inspiration from this.

Within these legends, there exists a knight on a holy quest to heal the king, and thus restore the land. The method changes as often as the knight does in different retellings, but it usually involves either the Holy Grail, asking an undefined question of the king, or inserting the weapon that maimed him back into the wound (or dripping the still fresh blood on the sword back onto the wound)

The sword Cypher carries may be representative of this, though it is problematic as Horus is usually represented with a Lightning Claw and Maul. It's not the Emperor's Sword either, as even though mentions of that vanish in the fluff after the final confrontation with Horus, Cypher's is of a markedly different design.

Some food for thought though.

Very interesting, cheers.

He also has the Lion Sword. If the author writing whatever Cypher's story is remembers, the Lion Sword destroys the warp identity of anything it kills. So it completely destroys daemons.

Or, if he stabs the Emperor, no more God-Emperor.

Of course, unless it's Gav Thorpe writing, no one is going to remember that.

[SPECULATION]
The Emperor is being kept alive against his will by the Lords of Terra. They know that if he dies, he'll be reborn, once again as the powerful god-emperor.

Cypher knows that the emperor's death is the only way to save humanity.

ziggurattt wrote:
[SPECULATION]
The Emperor is being kept alive against his will by the Lords of Terra. They know that if he dies, he'll be reborn, once again as the powerful god-emperor.

Cypher knows that the emperor's death is the only way to save humanity.

Its old now (but not yet retconned), but the Lost and the Damned explains exactly what the situation is with the Emperor, and your theory certainly is not the case.

by the way....isn't Cypher the oldest human in the universe now

i mean he is from the 30k and still kicking around in 40k

LightKing wrote:
by the way....isn't Cypher the oldest human in the universe now

i mean he is from the 30k and still kicking around in 40k

Well, you have people like Abbadon and Ahriman who are also from 30k, but he's definitely no young'un, that's for sure.

Cypher can appear, disappear and reappear at will, raise Chaos Warbands tnen kill them, AND HE CAN TIME TRAVEL.

Alpharius be damned, this guys an Assassin.

One guy with the potential to respark the HH all over again? Let's say his info gets out that the 1st legion were (and still are) traitors to the Imperium or at the very least out to searve their own ends. I know the Space Wolves would jump on his band wagon and take the oportunity to stick it to their old rivals but would the rest of the Astartes stand by and just watch. Whose side are you on is a pretty deadly game in the 41st millenium.

Maybe that's why he's such a threat.

Where in the fluff is he stated to be the most dangerous man though?

 dusara217 wrote:

My two cents.

Due to Lord Cypher's former position in the Knights of Lupus (who essentially studied daemons for their entire history), he has an excellent knowledge of Chaos and Daemons, he's an exceptionally intelligent and skilled warrior, and he always seems to fight for whoever's going to win. We have examples of this in him joining the Order after it exterminated his entire brotherhood, he joined Luther after Luther and the rest of the resident Chapter (along with the resident Imperial Army) rebelled from Imperial rule, and now he's just kind of dicking around, getting gak done that he feels is necessary, and overall being a nuisance to the Imperium. The knowledge he holds isn't exactly critical - if he were to reveal it to the galaxy, it's not like anybody would believe a traitor like him, and they' likely be shot as soon as they heard it, anyways.

That Lord Cypher and Cypher are probably not even the same person, as he wasn't a SM IIRC. We know there's been a minimum of 2; the old one and the Knight of Lupus. After that it's anyone guess.

Hierophant wrote:


The sword Cypher carries may be representative of this, though it is problematic as Horus is usually represented with a Lightning Claw and Maul. It's not the Emperor's Sword either, as even though mentions of that vanish in the fluff after the final confrontation with Horus, Cypher's is of a markedly different design.

Some food for thought though.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
He also has the Lion Sword. If the author writing whatever Cypher's story is remembers, the Lion Sword destroys the warp identity of anything it kills. So it completely destroys daemons.

Or, if he stabs the Emperor, no more God-Emperor.

Of course, unless it's Gav Thorpe writing, no one is going to remember that.