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I had a game two days ago against a very classical Imperial Guard army; Leman Russ tanks, barrages, infantry blobs, and commissars (supported by a Knight). Great fun, but my opponent was woefully inadequate to deal with modern 40k's style of fast moving, hard-hitting, and/or ultra-durable forces. Spent some time thinking about how they could be improved, and what the advantages would be for doing so:

Re-themed as the "Glue" of the Imperial forces.

If you're an Imperial Player, and you want a good ally to bring, who do you think of? Space Marines! If not Space Marines, then maybe the new Admech, or a Knight. These are pretty cool forces, and are rightly devastating. Who do you almost never see as an ally? The Imperial Guard. As an army, they don't have a whole lot that plays nicely with other forces, and they don't have their own niche. If you want allies that can repair stuff, you take Admech. If you want rapid-response or alpha-strikes, you take Space Marines. If you need extra hitting power, you take Knights. If you need someone to hold an objective, you take Space Marines of a different flavour.

What can the Guard do that's fundamentally within their theme, that's better than these others? I'm thinking; Tanks and Support Roles. Yes, you can still take Astra Militarum on their own, but reinforce the idea that they really shine when paired with others.

How To Do This:

Astra Militarum can already get some of the most plentiful vehicles in the game, but they need to do better with what they got! Also importantly, those same methods should work with allies.

#1 - Allow Astra Militarum to issue orders to Battle Brothers in the same force.

This is the big one, and what would make guard truly the Imperial "glue". Take anything alongside Guard, because the Guard can make them fight better. The Order List would have to be re-evaluated, and orders themselves might require another revision on how they function (maybe more similarly to psychic powers? maybe even resolved in the psychic phase?) as this is yet another possible piece of death-star combo dreams, but it would make the Guard unique amongst all the Imperial forces. Imagine a Company Command Squad giving a Knight's weapons Ignores Cover, or making some Devastators twin-linked?

#2 - Give Infantry Platoons the option to take a Tank Commander instead of a Platoon Command Squad.

GW needs to double-down on the "Tanks!" theme, and this does it wonderfully, while being very interesting when working with change #1. It could give you a Leman Russ as a Troop (while still requiring you to take some other infantry), and could issue orders to allied vehicles.

#3 - Increase Imperial Guard Hull Points by 1 across the board (except Sentinels, Valkyries, and Vendettas - nor should Taurox transports but they would need some kind of help too).

People constantly complain about vehicle's survivability in 40k; they're far too fragile. Unless, of course, you're a Knight or can Jink, then you're nearly broken. Upping this number by 1 may not sound like much, but given just how many tanks the Guard can put down, it'll make them almost 33% more durable than they currently are.


On top of this, of course, will be new relics, wargear, formations, and a voltron-detachment. However, these changes would help the Guard feel more like Guard, while also giving them a real place in people's multi-army collections.

Other ideas might be :
#4-Give the sergeant a chance to give orders with an upgrade

The AM ,IMHO, has few officers able to give orders (excluding characters). If you could get an upgrade to the sergeant, perhaps calling veteran sergeant or lieutenant and paying something like 15 or 20 points might look masterful

#5-1+ strength to lasgun

I know it's a touchy subject, but we must consider that the IG are the only army with a rifle S 3. Useless against anyone that has got T4( or T5) and the most of the troops has BS 3. Now I'don' want TAU stuff rifle but only a S4 AP- rifle could give to the Imperial troops a chance to compete with the other armies.Stop shooting flowers

Drop point costs by 33% atleast, here's your fixed codex.

From a sad Tyranid Player

#1 Doesn't make much sense from a fluff perspective, and also doesn't address the failings of the Imperial Guard book itself. No, allies are not and should not be the answer, and building in a mechanic like that to a core book only dilutes its flavour.

Not a fan, and I don't think it adds anything of value to the book, while also walking a weird and inconsistent fluff line.

#2 Also doesn't make much sense. Tanks operate in their own platoons. It would make much more sense to have a company commander tank, then a series of tank platoons each led by a platoon commander. Plus it doesn't fix any of the actual problems either.

#3 Both doesn't make universally a lot of sense, and is also a problem game wide concerning all vehicles. Leman Russ tanks could use +1HP, but the rest are fine at 3, its just that all vehicles need an overhaul. Personally, the solution is to merge the rules for vehicles and MCs. But that's a topic for a different discussion.

I don't think any of your ideas make the Guard feel more like Guard. To do that, you'd need to re-work some of the units so that they're viable (heavy and special weapon squads, hellhounds, sentinels, abhumans, so on) to encourage greater use of those units, and offer more options to customize the feel of the regiment; mechanized, armoured, siege, light, airborne, and mixed regiments are some of the more common types and the book could support those styles better with some simple 'Force org swaps' or super detachments.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Drop point costs by 33% atleast, here's your fixed codex.

From a sad Tyranid Player

Aside from the fact that that does not tally mathematically with points costs, that would not be as helpful as you think. The codex is fundamenatlly flawed, and we already have things priced as low as they can feasibly go. When you can fit 7 tanks and a hundred infantry in a standard list, reducing the points it not going to help.

I like a lot of the ideas you have Yarium, but I certainly think one of the biggest ways to help guard would be to make the humble lasgun stronger, most of our guys have it, and right now it's pretty weak.

Make the Lasgun stronger

Let IG Infantry overwatch on a 5+ with sections within 8" providing supporting fire OR if they pass an LD test overwatch on a 6+ (not flamers) then retreat D6+3" with other units providing supporting fire.

Bring the cost of most units down, in particular Ogryns, Bullgryns, Hellhounds and co, Leman Russ (especially the Demolisher), Rough Riders and Sentinels

Make Rough Riders and Sentinels better

Make Heavy Weapon Sections far far cheaper

 Blacksails wrote:
#1 Doesn't make much sense from a fluff perspective, and also doesn't address the failings of the Imperial Guard book itself. No, allies are not and should not be the answer, and building in a mechanic like that to a core book only dilutes its flavour.

Not a fan, and I don't think it adds anything of value to the book, while also walking a weird and inconsistent fluff line.

#2 Also doesn't make much sense. Tanks operate in their own platoons. It would make much more sense to have a company commander tank, then a series of tank platoons each led by a platoon commander. Plus it doesn't fix any of the actual problems either.

#3 Both doesn't make universally a lot of sense, and is also a problem game wide concerning all vehicles. Leman Russ tanks could use +1HP, but the rest are fine at 3, its just that all vehicles need an overhaul. Personally, the solution is to merge the rules for vehicles and MCs. But that's a topic for a different discussion.

I don't think any of your ideas make the Guard feel more like Guard. To do that, you'd need to re-work some of the units so that they're viable (heavy and special weapon squads, hellhounds, sentinels, abhumans, so on) to encourage greater use of those units, and offer more options to customize the feel of the regiment; mechanized, armoured, siege, light, airborne, and mixed regiments are some of the more common types and the book could support those styles better with some simple 'Force org swaps' or super detachments.

The Guard have never been my strong suit for fluff, since I don't play them. They've always been a "background" force in my mind - they're fighting the long war, desperately holding the line until reinforcements show up. Or they arrive in such masses once the real Imperial War Machine is in place that their mass is unstoppable. Translating that to the tabletop is very difficult, so I think the fluff can be a little mutable to accommodate the needs of the game. The only way to make the Guard match their fluff is to do as KurtAngle2 suggests and just do a massive points-drop across the army so you get the "there's so many of them!" vibe - but ultimately, I don't think that's very "Guard" like. The Guard can win from overwhelming numbers, yes, but the "forge the narrative" is that they still have to use some wits to make it happen, barking orders and calling in supplies. Outside of defensive engagements, the way the Astra Militarum are written, they'd never launch an offensive or take part in a mission unless it's an Apocalypse game. So, instead, why not zoom in on the action a bit?

I really believe that in an age of allies, having the Astra Militarum be able to issue orders to other forces would be really cool thing to do.

As for the extra hull points, yeah that's mostly just a game-balancing act of increasing effectiveness without increasing points costs. Chimera's are tanks, not just transports like a Rhino. An extra hull point for them would be a minor boost when engaged on their flanks or rear (since it's so vulnerable at AV10), but is a much bigger bonus when you can keep your opponent in your forward AV 12 arc.


Here's a few thoughts on issuing orders:

Give a special rule to models with their rank "Rank-Name (Officer)". Each rank issues orders on a d6 roll, with better officers having a better chance of success. So Senior Officers issue on a 3+ (Creed and other special characters could issue on a 2+), Junior Officers on a 4+, and Sergeants on a 5+. Command range of 12", boosted to 18" with a Vox Caster. Banners improve the command roll by 1. Move the "issue orders" step to the Psychic Phase so that it's easier to remember to do. Here's the revised order list I was thinking of:

1. Come In Command: Target friendly Officer within your command range may issue orders this turn as if it were in this model's position and unit. (Add this model's command area to that officer's command area. This effect is cumulative.)

2. Get Back In The Fight: Target friendly unit within your command range automatically regroups and may act normally this turn. (It may issue orders, cast psychic powers, shoot, and assault as if it hadn't fallen back, gone to ground, or been pinned)

3. Run, Run, Run!: Target friendly unit within your command range must run this turn if able, and may run up to 6" instead of rolling a die.

4. Duck 'n Cover (Senior & Junior Officers only): Target friendly unit within your command range adds +1 to their cover save if they Go to Ground until your next turn. This effect is not cumulative.

5. Fire On My Target (Senior & Junior Officers only): Target friendly within your command range unit gains +1 to its Ballistic Skill until end of turn. This effect is not cumulative.

6. Bring It Down (Senior Officers only): Name a unit. Target friendly unit gains Preferred Enemy against units with that name until end of turn.

7. Flush 'Em Out (Senior Officers only): Cover saves taken against weapons fired by target friendly unit are at -1 until end of turn. This effect is cumulative.

I like some of these new orders, but I do think the Duck 'n Cover's bonus to cover saves should apply to any cover save they may have, not just their save for going to ground.

 Yarium wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
#1 Doesn't make much sense from a fluff perspective, and also doesn't address the failings of the Imperial Guard book itself. No, allies are not and should not be the answer, and building in a mechanic like that to a core book only dilutes its flavour.

Not a fan, and I don't think it adds anything of value to the book, while also walking a weird and inconsistent fluff line.

#2 Also doesn't make much sense. Tanks operate in their own platoons. It would make much more sense to have a company commander tank, then a series of tank platoons each led by a platoon commander. Plus it doesn't fix any of the actual problems either.

#3 Both doesn't make universally a lot of sense, and is also a problem game wide concerning all vehicles. Leman Russ tanks could use +1HP, but the rest are fine at 3, its just that all vehicles need an overhaul. Personally, the solution is to merge the rules for vehicles and MCs. But that's a topic for a different discussion.

I don't think any of your ideas make the Guard feel more like Guard. To do that, you'd need to re-work some of the units so that they're viable (heavy and special weapon squads, hellhounds, sentinels, abhumans, so on) to encourage greater use of those units, and offer more options to customize the feel of the regiment; mechanized, armoured, siege, light, airborne, and mixed regiments are some of the more common types and the book could support those styles better with some simple 'Force org swaps' or super detachments.

The Guard have never been my strong suit for fluff, since I don't play them. They've always been a "background" force in my mind - they're fighting the long war, desperately holding the line until reinforcements show up. Or they arrive in such masses once the real Imperial War Machine is in place that their mass is unstoppable. Translating that to the tabletop is very difficult, so I think the fluff can be a little mutable to accommodate the needs of the game. The only way to make the Guard match their fluff is to do as KurtAngle2 suggests and just do a massive points-drop across the army so you get the "there's so many of them!" vibe - but ultimately, I don't think that's very "Guard" like. The Guard can win from overwhelming numbers, yes, but the "forge the narrative" is that they still have to use some wits to make it happen, barking orders and calling in supplies. Outside of defensive engagements, the way the Astra Militarum are written, they'd never launch an offensive or take part in a mission unless it's an Apocalypse game. So, instead, why not zoom in on the action a bit?

I really believe that in an age of allies, having the Astra Militarum be able to issue orders to other forces would be really cool thing to do.

As for the extra hull points, yeah that's mostly just a game-balancing act of increasing effectiveness without increasing points costs. Chimera's are tanks, not just transports like a Rhino. An extra hull point for them would be a minor boost when engaged on their flanks or rear (since it's so vulnerable at AV10), but is a much bigger bonus when you can keep your opponent in your forward AV 12 arc.


Here's a few thoughts on issuing orders:

Give a special rule to models with their rank "Rank-Name (Officer)". Each rank issues orders on a d6 roll, with better officers having a better chance of success. So Senior Officers issue on a 3+ (Creed and other special characters could issue on a 2+), Junior Officers on a 4+, and Sergeants on a 5+. Command range of 12", boosted to 18" with a Vox Caster. Banners improve the command roll by 1. Move the "issue orders" step to the Psychic Phase so that it's easier to remember to do. Here's the revised order list I was thinking of:

1. Come In Command: Target friendly Officer within your command range may issue orders this turn as if it were in this model's position and unit. (Add this model's command area to that officer's command area. This effect is cumulative.)

2. Get Back In The Fight: Target friendly unit within your command range automatically regroups and may act normally this turn. (It may issue orders, cast psychic powers, shoot, and assault as if it hadn't fallen back, gone to ground, or been pinned)

3. Run, Run, Run!: Target friendly unit within your command range must run this turn if able, and may run up to 6" instead of rolling a die.

4. Duck 'n Cover (Senior & Junior Officers only): Target friendly unit within your command range adds +1 to their cover save if they Go to Ground until your next turn. This effect is not cumulative.

5. Fire On My Target (Senior & Junior Officers only): Target friendly within your command range unit gains +1 to its Ballistic Skill until end of turn. This effect is not cumulative.

6. Bring It Down (Senior Officers only): Name a unit. Target friendly unit gains Preferred Enemy against units with that name until end of turn.

7. Flush 'Em Out (Senior Officers only): Cover saves taken against weapons fired by target friendly unit are at -1 until end of turn. This effect is cumulative.

You should think of Guard first as a stand alone army rather than an allied force to your army

Making the Guard strictly into a 'there's too many of them!' ignores so much of the background and the rules over the last two decades that its really just a poor and one-dimensional idea for what is arguably the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy.

So no, a massive points costs or turning them into meat waves exclusively (or even leaning in that direction heavily) is not a good idea. The Guard are so diverse that you'd be alienating whole swathes of Guard players that don't play the Valhallan waves of conscripts.

As for orders, quite simply put, it doesn't make sense fluff wise for the Guard to be issuing orders to anyone but themselves. Hell, even other regiments are unlikely to listen to one another, let alone a 500 year old Chapter Master or Magos. I don't think its fluffy, and it certainly does nothing to fix the Guard themselves.

As for orders, voxes need to create a network where orders can be given and received anywhere on the battlefield, while those without voxes are only affected by the usual distance restriction. I think if the Ld stat is to have any useful role in the game (its dimishing constantly, like Iniative) then orders should play off the Ld stat, which is fluffy to boot and helps cement a useful role for various Ld buffs that can be bought or taken.

 Blacksails wrote:
As for orders, quite simply put, it doesn't make sense fluff wise for the Guard to be issuing orders to anyone but themselves. Hell, even other regiments are unlikely to listen to one another, let alone a 500 year old Chapter Master or Magos. I don't think its fluffy, and it certainly does nothing to fix the Guard themselves.

As for orders, voxes need to create a network where orders can be given and received anywhere on the battlefield, while those without voxes are only affected by the usual distance restriction. I think if the Ld stat is to have any useful role in the game (its dimishing constantly, like Iniative) then orders should play off the Ld stat, which is fluffy to boot and helps cement a useful role for various Ld buffs that can be bought or taken.

Agreed that it's not terribly fluff to do so - but then where do Guard fit in on the battlefield as an allied force? So long as it just makes more sense for the Guard to be left behind in favour of fighting with other forces allied together, they'll become a more and more rare sight on player's tabletops. But any fluff response has an equal and opposite fluff response. A Knight may totally listed to a veteran Imperial commander, perhaps because that is who the Knight's house is indebted to. A Space Marine Chapter Master may be new to this battlefield, which the Sergeant has spent his whole life fighting over, and would not simply ignore a useful piece of intel. A Magos may know everything about machines, but the ways of war are not as easily catalogued (don't let them here me say that though).

I do and don't like using Leadership for this roll. I like it because, yeah, it's use in the game is diminishing again - which is unfortunate. At the same time rolling Leadership tests take a bit longer and more mental energy (not much more mind you) than a single d6 roll.

There's about 30 pages of discussion about this the main forum.

Go check it out!

Current Thread

i just want to see the different abilities btween different types of armies again. stealth for catachans , carapce for vostroyan, +1 leadership for mordian etc.
and DKOK are already BAMFs
FMJ

 Yarium wrote:


Agreed that it's not terribly fluff to do so - but then where do Guard fit in on the battlefield as an allied force?

You're missing my point entirely.

It doesn't matter how they function as allied force or as a force to bring allies with.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Fix the book as a standalone entity that is externally and internally balanced without outside influence, then consider how allies would affect them. Guard are not, have not, and will not (as best as my psychic powers tell me) be an allied focused army. They are a standalone force that represents the largest and most diverse fighting force in the known galaxy.

I do and don't like using Leadership for this roll. I like it because, yeah, it's use in the game is diminishing again - which is unfortunate. At the same time rolling Leadership tests take a bit longer and more mental energy (not much more mind you) than a single d6 roll.

Of all things I want streamlined, rolling two dice and looking for below a number is so infinitesimally small an extra burden than a single dice that it really doesn't make a difference, and you really might as well use the stat line as much as you can.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Yarium wrote:


Agreed that it's not terribly fluff to do so - but then where do Guard fit in on the battlefield as an allied force?

You're missing my point entirely.

It doesn't matter how they function as allied force or as a force to bring allies with.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Fix the book as a standalone entity that is externally and internally balanced without outside influence, then consider how allies would affect them. Guard are not, have not, and will not (as best as my psychic powers tell me) be an allied focused army. They are a standalone force that represents the largest and most diverse fighting force in the known galaxy.

I do and don't like using Leadership for this roll. I like it because, yeah, it's use in the game is diminishing again - which is unfortunate. At the same time rolling Leadership tests take a bit longer and more mental energy (not much more mind you) than a single d6 roll.

Of all things I want streamlined, rolling two dice and looking for below a number is so infinitesimally small an extra burden than a single dice that it really doesn't make a difference, and you really might as well use the stat line as much as you can.

Exalted.

Im am really fed up of seeing the Guard used as an allied force so some cheescake player can squeeze in some tanks or being told to quit whining and just take allies. I dont want too. I want my Guard to be a fully stand alone force.

Agreed, I am in the camp where all codexs should be able to stand alone, the scale of 40k is so vast that most table top battles are usually just a small skirmish between 2 armies before the bulk of their forces meet up. Armies shouldn't be built around the idea of who am I going to ally this with. If that is the thought procedure what is the point of collecting the army in the first place.

That being said I have no issue with occasionally taking allies, it's a fun way to change things up. It shouldn't be counted on in order to give any army a slim chance of winning.

I think one of the biggest issue that the guard have are A) mobility, and B) their upgrade costs.

They are slow. They need something that can get them into the fight faster. Ie maybe all vets can take grav chute insertion and and essentially allow them to deep strike. Or give them as I have mentioned in the past, access through the infantry platoon a sqaud of 3 models on motorcycles and sidecars that gives them a chance to get around to objectives.

B) upgrade costs; it doesn't make sense for a T3 model with 3's across the board to pay the same price for a power sword as a space marine captain. Those upgrade cost need to drop. I'm ok with the base cost of all the models and units, even the price of russ' I'm ok with. (I'd like the extra HP though) just to upgrade the guard to make them competitive across the board I think lowering the points for HW's, and gear could make a huge difference.