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I can not believe 1 Wraith lord and 2 Wraith knights and 3 units of WraithGuards beat my 5 titans turn 3. He ran wraith host and a regular cad to get 2 WK. He also had psychic hq and councils and 2 wind riders.

Why the hell do they have piss poor av12 side and rear? Scat spam glancing my IK! smh fml table flip. Atleast it was fun only have to move 5 models... instead of cultists zombies and a bunch of little guys.

How should I tailor my list? Should I go back to my primary army of CSM and ally IK? What tactics and strats csn i use to combat Str D spam?

Yeah. D Weapons mess up superheavies.

You can't really tailor knights to go against wraith/D-spam. It's just a bad muchup, and it's what happens when you take 5 damn knights.

Instead of bringing five big units that can be Destroyed off the table, bring MSU.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Instead of bringing five big units that can be Destroyed off the table, bring MSU.

Which 5 knights would destroy!

Rock-paper-scissors.

edit: nvm.

The only hard counter i know is SM grav spam to kill WK.

Which knights are you using?

Ultimately, if you're taking 5 knights your tactical options are limited - I think there's a formation option which improves your invulnerable save (probably worth it against D-weapons, as only a 6 punches through it and distort weapons can't even do that). If those knights have wraithcannons you've got an issue because they have a gun designed to bring down superheavies and you've got a gun designed to flatten marine squads in the open (great against unmounted wraithguard, but not so good against big brother or jinking bikes).

It is a bad matchup. you need to keep ion shields pointed at the wraithknights because D-weapons, but that leaves the flanks vulnerable to scatter laser fire, and 2 packs of 6 bikes each with lasers (which is about the price of a knight, I think?) can bring down a knight a turn from the flank. That's the breaks with knights, compared to something like a hierodule (which compared to a knight of the same 'weight class' shrugs off scatter laser fire but dies horribly to grav cannons)

I dunno. a combined arms mix of CSM and Chaos Knights should work well. First off, no alliance issues - so you can pack up close, and use beneficial powers on them. Secondly, chaos marines have some very nice toys at their disposal - the heldrake, for example, is an excellent jetbike hunter when armed with a baleflamer, and can realistically gut a jetbike squad with a similar points value to it on a single strafing run.




To be honest, there's some logic with sticking with knights but swapping to their daemonic brethren - chaos knights get foe-reaper chainswords, specifically designed for murdering wraithknights and similar, and the daemonic save gives you a 5++ save on the non-shielded facings. It also - if you wish to be less than entirely friendly, lets you stack "improve daemonic invulnerable saves" jank like Grimoire of True Names and Cursed Earth onto the Knight...



Being flanked by bikers is an issue - knights have an intentionally "piss poor av12 side and rear" because that's the only way most armies can realistically do anything do them. As it stands, any model in an army without at least a S6 gun is just a bystander, which leaves a lot of armies practically useless against a knight lance. The problem is that Eldar have always been able to spam mobile S6 firepower - it's just got ridiculous in the latest edition.

Belly wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Instead of bringing five big units that can be Destroyed off the table, bring MSU.

Which 5 knights would destroy!

Rock-paper-scissors.

I don't know. I usually take ALOT of anti-tank with my MSU. I'd probably kill 1-2 knights a turn with dropped in units. Plus you know all the scoring units everywhere would be a pain to get rid of.

I really don't get the whole IK fear running honestly.

Maybe its just because I usually packed 10+ melta guns in a mere 1000 point list regularly before they even existed-so I'm used to just overwhelm AV targets...

 BoomWolf wrote:
I really don't get the whole IK fear running honestly.

Maybe its just because I usually packed 10+ melta guns in a mere 1000 point list regularly before they even existed-so I'm used to just overwhelm AV targets...

Well my 1850 list runs 10 melta weapons( 4 are combi), 6 grav cannons, 4 lascannons, and 4 plasma guns for Anti-tank so I really don't fear armored armies. Usually its FMCs I have problems with, but I can still usually bring them down from weight of fire by turn 2 or 3.

Probably should run cheaprer knights. Rip off all their guns and make them cheap as possible and run them right at the enemy.

Whatever style of knight you bring, you're facing things designed to kill them. I doubt there is another Knight class model as efficient at hunting Knight class models as a WK, but even if there were, you're pushing for even at best. And that's before even factoring in how underpriced WKs are.

If you face a list built upon killing Knights, its not that unreasonable for a Knight list to get hosed.

1850pt
1 Gallant
2 Paladins
2 Wardens because Errant is bad?
some worthless upgrades
Used Household formation for obj sec.

I can go Baronial Formation and take 4 Crusaders.

Should I rematch him again at 2000pts?
I can have 3 Crusaders, 1 Errant, 1 Gallant.
Literally the 150pts upgrades my Paladins into Crusaders.

I gut wants to use the IK. My brain tells me to run SM grav. My wallet tells me to stop spending and Sell everything.

WK and scat bikes are hillariously undercosted. Not exactly news.

This is how i feel



Atleast it was fun fighting Necrons because gauss hoses vehicles.

Accept that an army as tactically limited as 5 models will be will lose some games very badly vs a hard counter. You have chosen a path that gives you auto wins vs a portion of the lists you will face, that comes at a cost that you have little flexibility. You can't "play the mission, win the game, lose models every turn" with 5 IK's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
IMO you had zero chance from the outset vs your friends list fwiw. You should drop 2 knights and get some kind of tactical flexibility into your list.

5 knight lists are really one dimensional to a fault. You rarely ever play the objectives since spreading out the knights would make them easier to puck off. If you're facing either large amounts objective secured MSU or really mobile armies like scars or eldar you chances of winning become pretty dim.

If your gut wants to use knights, use knights.

If you're having trouble, though, consider not using pure knights. You can field some good supporting units by dropping out even just a single knight, and supporting specialists like Inquisitors, cheap massed infantry like guard, or deep strikers like Legion of the damned, can give you serious tactical advantages.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Instead of bringing five big units that can be Destroyed off the table, bring MSU.

Add more variety to your army.
Keep the Wraithguard at arm's length or tie them up.

When in doubt - MOAR MEHREENZ

Space marines just have to look at eldar and they die. Because they are space marines. Just go over to his side of the table and start pulling off his models declaring them dead. If he asks why say "because sphezz mehreenz" and continue. Game over you win.

This guy is a troll...

I dunno if i want to spend more money just to get grav guns on bikes and centurions.

 DarthSpader wrote:
When in doubt - MOAR MEHREENZ

Space marines just have to look at eldar and they die. Because they are space marines. Just go over to his side of the table and start pulling off his models declaring them dead. If he asks why say "because sphezz mehreenz" and continue. Game over you win.

This post is awesome.

The Lancer is an excellent counter with the Concussive range weapon. If it has no 5++, you're likely to cause one wound with it, and then you go to town on the charge.

Maegara or whatever can also potentially reduce their T8 to T7, though that's not always going to be helpful since that's Template range.