Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Given a unit that has a 5+ save is wounded by a weapon with -2 Rend - do they still get a save?

May a save be reduced beyond 6 - or even the other way - below 1? I have found no rule that strictly forbids it. I have also seen certain other rules worded in a way that suggests this is legal - for example “on a roll of 6 or more” when referring to a single die suggests that all rolls should be made with modifiers in mind, and that perhaps there is no cap.

I do feel i may have missed something painfully obvious!

as there are no rules that state anything to the contrary, just apply the modifier to the dice roll (as I believe that is what all the modifiers should be applied to in the rules). Therefore in your example you would need to roll a 7+ on the dice for the modified value to be 5+.

All modifiers (to save, to hit, or whatever) modify the dice roll you achieve. A rend of -2, reduces the number on the dice by -2, likewise, mystic shield adds a +1 to the dice roll. By following that logic, there should not be any confusion, as the save isn't reduced to above 6, but the dice roll result is modified by -2.

To 'save', you have to roll a D6 and score 5 or more.
Rend means you have to subtract 2 from your dice roll which means it is impossible to score a 5+ - unless something gives you a bonus to your roll or allows you to roll more than 1D6 per save. (I don't think there is one).

So you can still roll, but you won't ever be successful.
Models with a save of '-' never get a save regardless of modifiers.

1+ save is possible. One of my opponents loves stacking Mystic Shield on Belakor. He ignores rend, so that makes him impervious to anything but mortal wounds...

The mechanic has always been dice + modifiers compared to a target score, even in WFB - it's just we tended to (for Sanity's sake) simply change the target score rather then modify the dice roll.

there could be some tricky scenario... Like Sister of Slaughter has 6+ save and a rule gives them +2 save modifier in close combat.

If rend means substract, than a rend -3 will be effective vs. Sisters. Or Sisters will still have good chances in fighteing that kind of monsters.

That isn't tricky. Roll a dice for armour, then apply the modifiers. For example...

Roll 4 +2 in combat. -1 rend scores a 5 (Failed save)
Roll 5 +2 in combat -1 rend scores a 6(pass)
Roll a 4 +2 in combat 0 rend scores a 6 (pass)
Roll a 6 +2 in combat -3 rend scores a 5 (fail)
Roll a 6 +2 in combat -1 rend scores 7 (pass)

Simple

Just remember BODMAS!

BODMAS will only matter if there are divide or multiply operations really. Addition and subtraction alone are fine ;-)

kyrellification wrote:
That isn't tricky. Roll a dice for armour, then apply the modifiers. For example...

Roll 4 +2 in combat. -1 rend scores a 5 (Failed save)
Roll 5 +2 in combat -1 rend scores a 6(pass)
Roll a 4 +2 in combat 0 rend scores a 6 (pass)
Roll a 6 +2 in combat -3 rend scores a 5 (fail)
Roll a 6 +2 in combat -1 rend scores 7 (pass)

Simple

One more question, some unit can fight back when 'make a successful save roll of 6 or more'. What do you think about that?
If the 'save roll' means the result, then rending will make some of them never work.
If the 'save roll' means the roll result itself without modification, then why they say '6 or more'?

Implication is the modified roll.
Potentially has a knock on effect for units that reroll saves of 1-
**EDIT**
Scratch that, rules clearly state you reroll before applying modifiers - so you can't use a modifier to trigger a reroll.

Yeah the "effect of a 6+" is usually after mod unless it states otherwise. Makes +1 to hit, really good on units such as retributors with mortal wounds on 6+ to hit.

Remember "gore fists" on khorne lot don't hit back on a save of 6, but roll a separate dice after a successful save and hit on a 6 with that.

kyrellification wrote:
Yeah the "effect of a 6+" is usually after mod unless it states otherwise. Makes +1 to hit, really good on units such as retributors with mortal wounds on 6+ to hit.

Remember "gore fists" on khorne lot don't hit back on a save of 6, but roll a separate dice after a successful save and hit on a 6 with that.

I was refering to Sisters of Slaugter. They have a special rule gives them +2 to save rolls, and when they have a successful save roll of 6 or plus, they need to roll another dice and on a 4+ they give one mortal wound to attackers.

Now I'm curious how it works when enemy has a rend of -3... Will -3 rend make the special rule of fight back never happen?

Aeonotakist wrote:

kyrellification wrote:
Yeah the "effect of a 6+" is usually after mod unless it states otherwise. Makes +1 to hit, really good on units such as retributors with mortal wounds on 6+ to hit.

Remember "gore fists" on khorne lot don't hit back on a save of 6, but roll a separate dice after a successful save and hit on a 6 with that.

I was refering to Sisters of Slaugter. They have a special rule gives them +2 to save rolls, and when they have a successful save roll of 6 or plus, they need to roll another dice and on a 4+ they give one mortal wound to attackers.

Now I'm curious how it works when enemy has a rend of -3... Will -3 rend make the special rule of fight back never happen?

Correct. Generally it is phrases as "a successful save of 6+" or similar. If rolling a 6 is not s successful save, meaning you didn't take a wound, then the ability would not be triggered.

Edit: Exact text "Bladed Buckler: Roll a dice each time you
make a successful save roll of 6 or more
for this unit in the combat phase; on a 4 or
more a Sister of Slaughter will lash out and
slit her assailant’s throat with her Bladed
Buckler – the attacking model’s unit
suffers a mortal wound after it has made all
of its attacks."

 mikhaila wrote:

Aeonotakist wrote:

kyrellification wrote:
Yeah the "effect of a 6+" is usually after mod unless it states otherwise. Makes +1 to hit, really good on units such as retributors with mortal wounds on 6+ to hit.

Remember "gore fists" on khorne lot don't hit back on a save of 6, but roll a separate dice after a successful save and hit on a 6 with that.

I was refering to Sisters of Slaugter. They have a special rule gives them +2 to save rolls, and when they have a successful save roll of 6 or plus, they need to roll another dice and on a 4+ they give one mortal wound to attackers.

Now I'm curious how it works when enemy has a rend of -3... Will -3 rend make the special rule of fight back never happen?

Correct. Generally it is phrases as "a successful save of 6+" or similar. If rolling a 6 is not s successful save, meaning you didn't take a wound, then the ability would not be triggered.

Edit: Exact text "Bladed Buckler: Roll a dice each time you
make a successful save roll of 6 or more
for this unit in the combat phase; on a 4 or
more a Sister of Slaughter will lash out and
slit her assailant’s throat with her Bladed
Buckler – the attacking model’s unit
suffers a mortal wound after it has made all
of its attacks."

I think there is more trick situation then just not successful roll..

For example, if someone with -3 rend attacks Sister of Slaugter. SoS made a roll of 6, the the result is 6-3+2=5, and SoS has a save of 5+.
So SoS made a successful save.
The original roll result is 6 and modified result is 5. Would it be considered as unable to trigger special rule of fighting back?

Aeonotakist wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

Aeonotakist wrote:

kyrellification wrote:
Yeah the "effect of a 6+" is usually after mod unless it states otherwise. Makes +1 to hit, really good on units such as retributors with mortal wounds on 6+ to hit.

Remember "gore fists" on khorne lot don't hit back on a save of 6, but roll a separate dice after a successful save and hit on a 6 with that.

I was refering to Sisters of Slaugter. They have a special rule gives them +2 to save rolls, and when they have a successful save roll of 6 or plus, they need to roll another dice and on a 4+ they give one mortal wound to attackers.

Now I'm curious how it works when enemy has a rend of -3... Will -3 rend make the special rule of fight back never happen?

Correct. Generally it is phrases as "a successful save of 6+" or similar. If rolling a 6 is not s successful save, meaning you didn't take a wound, then the ability would not be triggered.

Edit: Exact text "Bladed Buckler: Roll a dice each time you
make a successful save roll of 6 or more
for this unit in the combat phase; on a 4 or
more a Sister of Slaughter will lash out and
slit her assailant’s throat with her Bladed
Buckler – the attacking model’s unit
suffers a mortal wound after it has made all
of its attacks."

I think there is more trick situation then just not successful roll..

For example, if someone with -3 rend attacks Sister of Slaugter. SoS made a roll of 6, the the result is 6-3+2=5, and SoS has a save of 5+.
So SoS made a successful save.
The original roll result is 6 and modified result is 5. Would it be considered as unable to trigger special rule of fighting back?

In your example, the SoS made a save roll of 5. 5 isn't 6 or more, so it doesn't trigger the SoS's special ability.

If the modified result was a 5, then no special ability.

It has to be the modified roll that is compared to the rule. If we use unmodified rolls, you would never have a roll beyond 6.

Imagine a brave Musketeer riposting an enemy attack, brushing aside his opponents rapier and counter striking for the kill

Now imagine the Musketeer using the same move on an Ogre Irongut, seeing his blade snap and watching as the great weapon descends to split his skull.

 Kriswall wrote:

Aeonotakist wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

Aeonotakist wrote:

kyrellification wrote:
Yeah the "effect of a 6+" is usually after mod unless it states otherwise. Makes +1 to hit, really good on units such as retributors with mortal wounds on 6+ to hit.

Remember "gore fists" on khorne lot don't hit back on a save of 6, but roll a separate dice after a successful save and hit on a 6 with that.

I was refering to Sisters of Slaugter. They have a special rule gives them +2 to save rolls, and when they have a successful save roll of 6 or plus, they need to roll another dice and on a 4+ they give one mortal wound to attackers.

Now I'm curious how it works when enemy has a rend of -3... Will -3 rend make the special rule of fight back never happen?

Correct. Generally it is phrases as "a successful save of 6+" or similar. If rolling a 6 is not s successful save, meaning you didn't take a wound, then the ability would not be triggered.

Edit: Exact text "Bladed Buckler: Roll a dice each time you
make a successful save roll of 6 or more
for this unit in the combat phase; on a 4 or
more a Sister of Slaughter will lash out and
slit her assailant’s throat with her Bladed
Buckler – the attacking model’s unit
suffers a mortal wound after it has made all
of its attacks."

I think there is more trick situation then just not successful roll..

For example, if someone with -3 rend attacks Sister of Slaugter. SoS made a roll of 6, the the result is 6-3+2=5, and SoS has a save of 5+.
So SoS made a successful save.
The original roll result is 6 and modified result is 5. Would it be considered as unable to trigger special rule of fighting back?

In your example, the SoS made a save roll of 5. 5 isn't 6 or more, so it doesn't trigger the SoS's special ability.

Last question. Cover is considered as +1 to save right? If Sister of Slaughter is in cover vs some enemy with Rend -, then when they roll 3, they should get 3+2+1 as result? And eventually fight back?

Yup, that's it.

Aeonotakist wrote:
Last question. Cover is considered as +1 to save right? If Sister of Slaughter is in cover vs some enemy with Rend -, then when they roll 3, they should get 3+2+1 as result? And eventually fight back?

"If all models in a unit are within or on a terrain feature, you can add 1 to all save rolls for that unit to represent the cover they receive from the terrain."

So, if a Sister of Slaughter is making a save roll in the combat phase, is in terrain and rolls a 3, you would get...

Roll of 3
+2 for the Dance of Death ability
+1 for the terrain cover

...resulting in a modified result of 6. This modified roll of "6 or more" would activate the Bladed Buckler ability. The Sister of Slaughter would then roll a second die and on a 4+ deal a mortal wound to the attacking unit. In essence, you'd save your wound AND activate the Bladed Buckler ability on a 3+ in this scenario.

Add a Mystic Shield to the mix and you're saving and activating the ability on a 2+.

Stack two Mystic Shields or find some other way to increase your save rolls by 1 and you're at an effective 1+ to save normal wounds and activate Bladed Buckler. Only mortal wounds would be able to hurt the unit. Of course... only a terrible opponent would actually charge you in cover and while under a Mystic Shield or two.