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Reading posts here about Necrons and playing them, I keep thinking that Necrons aren't represented very well as a seperate Faction with its own feel. At the moment, the "feel" is very much the old "Legions of Terminators" feel we're going for, evident in their special rules (Gauss can basically hurt anything through luck, and the RP is to faciliate the "Oh gak! He can survive anything I throw at him!" thing that the Terminator has too), but I don't feel that's actually what they are at the moment, in fluff or crunch. It's a part of the faction for sure, but I don't think it's a good thing for the faction in general - It's a lot of what the Marines are made to be, but without the weaknesses the Marines have (low numbers, steep point costs, average ranged weaponry) and with boosted strengths (better survivability, no uneeded equipment, powerful vehicles), and all the while, the Necrons themselves feel less unique in the way they play. That's a whole bunch of sad, in my opinion.

At this moment, the feel is more towards the "Shambling Legions of Regenerating Robots" that the Terminator thing, and I'd love to try and change up their rules to reflect that:

- Lower S, T, WS, BS: To start with the most important unit, I'd turn them into the Elite of the Hordes in 40k - Guardsmen are Shooty Horde, Orks are Bashy Horde, and Warriors will be the Tough Shooty Horde. Immortals and Deathmarks would have a BS and T of 4, Flayed Ones WS 4, Lychguard would have S and T of 4, and a WS of 5 and BS of 4, Praetorians would have S and T of 4, and a WS/BS of 4. Lords keep their S/T of 5.

- Something other than Ld 10 across the board: This is actually the worst part of the faction I feel: It's just plain lazy. It does nothing to represent the unique way the Necrons behave, it's just very loyal and diciplined warriors with no negative qualities to make them behave like the mindless automatons they are. My idea to fix this would be for all Necron constructs to have an USR called Phase Out or something: Whenever a unit makes a Pinning, Morale or Sweeping check with Ld and fails it, the unit loses an amount of models equal to what the unit lost the test by, and are then considered to have passed the test. Warriors would have Ld 6, Immortals and Deathmarks, Praetorians and Lychguards Ld 8, and Lords/Overlords Ld 9. Lords and Overlords would then have a special rule that allows any unit within 12'' to use their Ld, which makes it easier for them to stay put.

- Reanimation Protocol: As it is now, completely.

What do you think? Do you agree, or do you have a different idea? I'd very much love to hear them

1st, this should go to Proposed Rules

2nd, only the Warriors/Canoptek stuff are mindless automatons. Immortals have some semblance of self-awareness, and each echalon up have more and more (Overlords are able to think just like an Imperial Governor)

Whilst probably in need of better writing, I think the 3rd and 5th edition rules represented their regeneration much better.

As it stands, it's just another save, which really doesn't feel right.

I'm not okay with their toughness being lowered. That's kind of their thing. Lychguard are ridiculously tough, same goes for Praetorians.

And I thought the whole army could use Stubborn as a special rule, since they are freaking robots. But, meh.

A robot army should have army-wide Fearless.

 jasper76 wrote:
A robot army should have army-wide Fearless.

I disagree. More and more things are having effects that translate into Fear, and giving yet another army an immunity to it is pointless. The reason I think Stubborn works is because they can still be effected by certain mind effects, but they will always get their LD10, making them highly resilient to it. It works better from a gameplay perspective.

I don't quite remember what Stubborn does.

I don't think it would be particularly good for the game if all Necrons had fearless, just if something like a Necron Warrior has pretty much lost all ability to think, why wouldn't it be Fearless?

They are space undead, and I think reanimation protocols does a decent job of making them "shoot them in the head" style zombies. Initiative 2 makes them slow shamblers, and their stat line shows a race not bound by mortal limits. The part of their fluff that I don't know if it gets reflected in the rules is the whole space Egyptians thing. There are some nods to in the models, crpyteks having the headdress and Egyptian style beards, the ghost arc looking like a reed barge, every unit having an ahnk, and the scarab theme throughout the army.

Of course there are a few more tropes in the necron army, like the stargate inspired fighters/light vehicles (I'd like to see some more inspiration stolen from here), and the obviously machine inspired canoptek units, that appear to all be inspired by bugs (carrying a theme from the scarabs). I'd like to see the C'Tan reworked to be animal headed god models, since the night bringer is supposed to be anubis and the deciver is set.

I agree that fluffwise, Fearless makes sense, but crunchwise, it's pretty much awful. Half the armies have ATSKNF anyway, and a lot of units in near-any army can get Fearless, so Fear and various Fear-based effects (see Dark Eldar...) just plain don't stick.

Think of how much better melee 'nids would be, for example, if the fact that all MCs have Fear was actually relevant. Also, one of the few ways to reliably dispatch Necron Warrior hordes is to sweeping advance them: Fearless removes this option completely, while Stubborn just makes it rather improbable. Recall that with I2, if you win combat against Necrons and they fail their Ld test, even Tau have decent odds of sweeping. (Tau won't win the CC in the first place unless they have positively Tzeentchian levels of luck, but that's beside the point.)

 jasper76 wrote:
I don't quite remember what Stubborn does.

I don't think it would be particularly good for the game if all Necrons had fearless, just if something like a Necron Warrior has pretty much lost all ability to think, why wouldn't it be Fearless?

Because the Fear effect can resemble much more in game than you'd think. Mindshackle Scarabs for example. The effect has nothing to do with the victims being afraid, but yet, because it's "Fear" it's ignored by everything.

And Stubborn just states that the unit never suffers leadership penalties when taking tests. So morale, pinning, Fear and break tests would all be at LD10, always.

Stubborn special characters and characters would work better. At the moment there's little reason to take royal courts. If they all had LD10 with stubborn they'd be practically invincible, though.

Valid points from all of you, but I still don't feel we're getting into the meat of it - While Fearless, Stubborn and similar mechanics might or might not make sense, adding these things would make Warriors more resilient and Elite, with no cost (apart from a suitable point increase). But what then? What keeps Warriors from being Marines with Fearless, higher Leadership, FNP, better guns, less gear, lower I and Armour Save? Where's the unique part, the catch, the golden rule that makes them stand out? Orks have Mob Rule, Guardsmen have Orders, Tau have Supporting Fire, Marines have ATSKNF, even goddamn Chaos Marines have Champions of Chaos, for what it's worth. Just adding abilities and boosts does not mean that the model is more unique and fluffy, it just makes it powerful and expensive.

I love my Orks for being inept scrambling idiots, who need Nobs and coverfire to make it anywhere, because 1) it requires thought and skill, and 2) It's hella fluffy. I have to think to make my army work, think of it's strengths and weaknesses, and how to use each model to its advantage. Necrons literally doesn't have that, at all. Nothing in the army requires this kind of planning, even though it should. Marines don't need this much thinking, but that's the point to them - They are armoured superwarriors that are easy to learn and play. Necrons... Are simply not that. They have a unique fluffy way of waging war, a weird one at that, and you don't see squat of that in their rules.

Sorry for rambling on here, I just feel it's so sad. I love dem small shiny men, but they are so lost On a more constructive note, forcing the RP rolls to be re-rolled in CC would make sense (the enemy make sure to rip them to bits, something they can't at range)

Also, someone wrote that Lychguard's thing was resilience. So is Orks, with no native FNP, T 4 and Sv 6+. Or Terminators, with T 4 and Sv 2+, for that matter. I don't see how a reduction of T would make them less resilient, it would just put them in line.

What makes necrons stand out? Um, reanimation protocols and auto wounding / glancing on a 6...

Ffyllotek wrote:
What makes necrons stand out? Um, reanimation protocols and auto wounding / glancing on a 6...

So, more power. How does it make them play different?

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
What makes necrons stand out? Um, reanimation protocols and auto wounding / glancing on a 6...

So, more power. How does it make them play different?

Well auto glancing means you don't need specialised teams vs vehicles, for example, and RP means you have far more survivability and can form better defensive formations whilst repelling other armies.

I'm not really sure what you're driving at here.

Ffyllotek wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
What makes necrons stand out? Um, reanimation protocols and auto wounding / glancing on a 6...

So, more power. How does it make them play different?

Well auto glancing means you don't need specialised teams vs vehicles, for example, and RP means you have far more survivability and can form better defensive formations whilst repelling other armies.

I'm not really sure what you're driving at here.

You tell me that the two outstanding features of the Necrons are their ability to destroy tanks, and their defensive capabilities? That's the prime features if the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists, and they are just sub-factions of a faction with a playstyle of its own: Marines, with Drop Pods, flexibility, staying power.

What I'm trying to get to is, that the current set of rules to make Necrons unique are decent at showing the capabilities of their tech, but does nothing to show their fundemental differences when waging war. All factions have something that makes the army play closer to their fluff than what they would without them, save for Necrons, who just have tech and power.

Can we not increase their point costs back up to last edition? They got such dramatic decreases in price on nearly every unit. It's ridiculous. With all the buffs they got had point costs changed less they'd still be very fair.
I like your changes. I agree they aren't fearless it just takes a lot to get the lower grade chassis to enact their fight or flight protocols.
A cool idea that might even fit fluff better is, the better the chassis the worse the leadership and you have to use the worst leadership value. So maybe warriors are fearless but if you use a cryptek who are leadership 9 the unit breaks if he runs. Same goes for immortal chassis who are Ld10 or lords who are Ld9 or overlords who are Ld8. Though their fearless rule would have to be worded differently so it doesn't make them fearless regardless of the rule that lowers their leadership.

Just some thoughts.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
What makes necrons stand out? Um, reanimation protocols and auto wounding / glancing on a 6...

So, more power. How does it make them play different?

Well auto glancing means you don't need specialised teams vs vehicles, for example, and RP means you have far more survivability and can form better defensive formations whilst repelling other armies.

I'm not really sure what you're driving at here.

You tell me that the two outstanding features of the Necrons are their ability to destroy tanks, and their defensive capabilities? That's the prime features if the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists, and they are just sub-factions of a faction with a playstyle of its own: Marines, with Drop Pods, flexibility, staying power.

What I'm trying to get to is, that the current set of rules to make Necrons unique are decent at showing the capabilities of their tech, but does nothing to show their fundemental differences when waging war. All factions have something that makes the army play closer to their fluff than what they would without them, save for Necrons, who just have tech and power.

The gauss rule and RP do make them play differently. They just also happen to be passive rules. I'd also argue that quantum shielding is pretty darn unique.

It sounds like you want something more interactive like blood tithes, battle focus, or maybe chapter tactics. Which I can totally get behind. that said, I think the first and best way to make necrons more interesting to face would be to return RP to its 5th edition incarnation. It used to be that sweeping them in melee or focusing fire on them gave you an answer to their unusually high defense. Which was interesting. You'd do things like leaving other units unmolested in shooting to finish off some warriors or dedicate an extra unit to assaulting one unit in hopes of wiping it out so that they couldn't repair some gents. Right now, RP as better FNP is way less interactive and dynamic. The 5th edition version was actually kind of neat to have to deal with.

I like your proposed Phase Out rule. The 3rd (4th?) edition version of that rule lead to monobuild problems, but the idea of the 'crons just evacuating for repairs to ensure they could never really be defeated was a cool one.

I'd kind of like to see 'crons do more with their teleportation tech. It seems to have faded into the background in the more recent books, but having an army that could deepstrike units each turn (without relying on Gate of Infinity) appeals to me.

Regarding Fearless: It absolutely makes sense for most 'crons to be Fearless from a fluff angle. It also makes sense for them to be immune to my harlequin and dark eldar "fear gas" and poison weapons. Unfortunately, being fearless would also make them even less interesting to interact with. No chance at sweeping them (even though sweeping them is harder than it should be right now), many leadership-based effects become point sinks that do nothing. Good for fluff. Bad for gameplay. I think the fluff in the codex mentions something about machine logic calculating when a threat is too great to be worth sticking around to fight, so you can sort of rely on that to explain them running away for now.

FratHammer wrote:
Can we not increase their point costs back up to last edition?

If you want to go back to about 75% of Necron units not seeing play, sure.

FratHammer wrote:
Can we not increase their point costs back up to last edition? They got such dramatic decreases in price on nearly every unit. It's ridiculous. With all the buffs they got had point costs changed less they'd still be very fair.
I like your changes. I agree they aren't fearless it just takes a lot to get the lower grade chassis to enact their fight or flight protocols.
A cool idea that might even fit fluff better is, the better the chassis the worse the leadership and you have to use the worst leadership value. So maybe warriors are fearless but if you use a cryptek who are leadership 9 the unit breaks if he runs. Same goes for immortal chassis who are Ld10 or lords who are Ld9 or overlords who are Ld8. Though their fearless rule would have to be worded differently so it doesn't make them fearless regardless of the rule that lowers their leadership.

Just some thoughts.

This is by far the most interesting idea here. Warriors and Flayed Ones could have an USR called Automaton or something like that, which is basically Fearless, but can be overrided if they have an IC with them without the rule, using the IC's Ld instead. That would mean that a Warrior unit without an IC is impossible to break, but has little of support, whereas a unit with an IC is easier to break and more suspectible to morale, but can get support. I'd give anything else but Overlords Ld 8, and Overlords would have Ld 9.

You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

I just have to get behind this post. All of the "yes".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

You can't be serious?

I mean, for one thing, that would make some DE weapons usable. We can't have that...

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

You can't be serious?

I mean, for one thing, that would make some DE weapons usable. We can't have that...

Another thing, to build on this, is that your change would change the entire game and the rules within it, but let's just focus on something for Necrons first of all. While I regret that Fear has so little effect nowadays, I don't want to skimp on lore or change everything for that USR only.

And why should they be Stubborn? Fluffwise there's nothing that make them (or their central AI processor thingamajigga) unable to understand what their falling comrades mean to their life expectency, and crunchwise that'd make them resistant to CC, which is the one thing they are meant to be weak at.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

You can't be serious?

I mean, for one thing, that would make some DE weapons usable. We can't have that...

Another thing, to build on this, is that your change would change the entire game and the rules within it, but let's just focus on something for Necrons first of all. While I regret that Fear has so little effect nowadays, I don't want to skimp on lore or change everything for that USR only.

And why should they be Stubborn? Fluffwise there's nothing that make them (or their central AI processor thingamajigga) unable to understand what their falling comrades mean to their life expectency, and crunchwise that'd make them resistant to CC, which is the one thing they are meant to be weak at.

Inquisitors have a warlord trait that lets them choose whether or not they pass a morale test because the inquisitor is good at going, "Hmm. Yep. This is looking rough, but we should still come out ahead," or even, "Hmm. Yep. This is rough, but I'll still get the job done if I stay locked in." Eldar warp spiders get a similar rule because they jump through the warp a bunch even though it's scary. Being better at not running away doesn't seem unfitting for what is basically an AI calculating its odds of victory without all those pesky survival insticts getting in the way. Survival logic vs survival instincts are very different.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

You can't be serious?

I mean, for one thing, that would make some DE weapons usable. We can't have that...

Another thing, to build on this, is that your change would change the entire game and the rules within it, but let's just focus on something for Necrons first of all. While I regret that Fear has so little effect nowadays, I don't want to skimp on lore or change everything for that USR only.

And why should they be Stubborn? Fluffwise there's nothing that make them (or their central AI processor thingamajigga) unable to understand what their falling comrades mean to their life expectency, and crunchwise that'd make them resistant to CC, which is the one thing they are meant to be weak at.

Inquisitors have a warlord trait that lets them choose whether or not they pass a morale test because the inquisitor is good at going, "Hmm. Yep. This is looking rough, but we should still come out ahead," or even, "Hmm. Yep. This is rough, but I'll still get the job done if I stay locked in." Eldar warp spiders get a similar rule because they jump through the warp a bunch even though it's scary. Being better at not running away doesn't seem unfitting for what is basically an AI calculating its odds of victory without all those pesky survival insticts getting in the way. Survival logic vs survival instincts are very different.

Well... Not really. Instict is essentially your own little logic engine asserting what's best to do at the given time.

Also, losing a Ld check doesn't mean that the unit flees in terror, as much as it's the unit deciding to try to fall back. A unit having a higher Ld just means that the point where the unit goes "Screw this, we're getting outta here!" is farther away, while a lower Ld means it's more likely to fall back. So a unit with an IC with a higher Ld inspires the unit to stay for longer than what they'd want to, while Stubborn simply means that the unit isn't affected by their comrades falling - Maybe because they don't care of they lose, or they know that their place is to die.

So, a Warrior's processor might assume that other Warriors falling around it must mean that it itself is in danger of being ripped apart, something that not even a regenerating machine wants (it somehow damages the Necrons to be put back together repeatably).

The issue with that is that 99% of the time, falling back from combat results in the entire unit being obliterated. And yet, it seems Necrons don't understand this.

"Well, the last 14562 units of warriors who retreated were utterly disassembled. However, I am certain that our unit will be able to retreat without issue. Commence retreat. All Necrons will withdraw and regroup. Withdraw and regroup. Wi-"

[TRANSMISSION ERROR]

 vipoid wrote:
The issue with that is that 99% of the time, falling back from combat results in the entire unit being obliterated. And yet, it seems Necrons don't understand this.

"Well, the last 14562 units of warriors who retreated were utterly disassembled. However, I am certain that our unit will be able to retreat without issue. Commence retreat. All Necrons will withdraw and regroup. Withdraw and regroup. Wi-"

[TRANSMISSION ERROR]

I'd say that a case of an acceptable break from reality. Many factions in the universe can know this, but that does little for the way they fight. AdMech units could easily know the exact way any situation should be approached, but still, most of them have Ld 8.

The Wise Dane wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

You can't be serious?

I mean, for one thing, that would make some DE weapons usable. We can't have that...

Another thing, to build on this, is that your change would change the entire game and the rules within it, but let's just focus on something for Necrons first of all. While I regret that Fear has so little effect nowadays, I don't want to skimp on lore or change everything for that USR only.

And why should they be Stubborn? Fluffwise there's nothing that make them (or their central AI processor thingamajigga) unable to understand what their falling comrades mean to their life expectency, and crunchwise that'd make them resistant to CC, which is the one thing they are meant to be weak at.

Necrons should be Stubborn because disassembly does not mean destruction, it means teleporting home. Low-level Necrons who have already degraded and lost most of their sapience have nothing to fear from being damaged in battle - they don't feel pain, and they don't die, they just phase out and return to the tomb world. That's why they should be stubborn. They are more likely to continue their unlife if they stay and are dismantled than they do if they flee and are captured.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The Wise Dane wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You want to give Necrons their own feel?

Give them Stubborn, and get rid of ATSKNF. Once Space Marines don't also ignore the entire Morale chapter of the rule book 'just because', you'll realise just how much of a defining character trait the implacable silver tide is.

You can't be serious?

I mean, for one thing, that would make some DE weapons usable. We can't have that...

Another thing, to build on this, is that your change would change the entire game and the rules within it, but let's just focus on something for Necrons first of all. While I regret that Fear has so little effect nowadays, I don't want to skimp on lore or change everything for that USR only.

And why should they be Stubborn? Fluffwise there's nothing that make them (or their central AI processor thingamajigga) unable to understand what their falling comrades mean to their life expectency, and crunchwise that'd make them resistant to CC, which is the one thing they are meant to be weak at.

Necrons should be Stubborn because disassembly does not mean destruction, it means teleporting home. Low-level Necrons who have already degraded and lost most of their sapience have nothing to fear from being damaged in battle - they don't feel pain, and they don't die, they just phase out and return to the tomb world. That's why they should be stubborn. They are more likely to continue their unlife if they stay and are dismantled than they do if they flee and are captured.

But it's not the point - a losing unit of Warriors is a unit of Warriors who cannot perform the function it was supposed to (taking a fort, finding something, holding ground), in which case it's better to fall back so they might regroup, reassemble and try again. Getting the whole unit to get chopped up and zapped back to base will prevent them from performing their intended function. That's essentially what Stubborn means - A Stubborn unit is a unit who'se ONLY goal is to keep someone occupied, which is why, e.g Space Marines don't usually have the rule, since a unit of Marines getting chopped up in CC isn't a good thing for anyone, and especially not for the Apothecaries.

There's a reason Commisars give out Stubborn, you know. Not because the Guardsmen stop caring, but because the Commisar doesn't give them a choice and leads them into the meatgrinder. If any Necron should have Stubborn natively, it should propably be Flayed Ones, being crazed murderbots no one wants, essentially.