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 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Thes guys look fantastic. The only problem is, you need the world's biggest carrying case to take your army of Prosecutors, LOL.

Don't worry GW will come out with a special Aos case for that

They should put large wings on the case so you cant fit them in the back seat. Then they can start selling GW Land Raiders for us to transport them in.

If eyes don't betray me, it seems that Azyros and Venator are two options from the same clampack...
If you look to the pose of the legs and even of the ribbons flowing to the base they are suspiciously close.

 Talys wrote:

Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.

I am not so sure about that. Most PP things that cost >=40$ are big. Just looking through Cirlce Orboros (my faction), only the gargantuan, battle engine, Extreme (-ly large and metal and silly) warpwolf, and Brennos (oddly) are over 40$. Every other beast or caster character is $35 or below, even the bigger ones with buddies in the pack. There really isn't much in the way of single models you are going to spend >$40 on from PP, and if you do they are really huge. And not HIPS, for some ridiculous reason. But still, big. Tall as Big McLargehuge there is, he is no Warpwolf

$40 for a big, but not much bigger than a chaos terminator lord, model is a bit above the normal market price. Sure, if people are hot for it, makes sense that they will buy it. But wow, they are right out of my price range, even if I did think the sculpt was cool.

 Talys wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well I was going to post a list of GW's plastic characters of a similar size to show the price creep, but I think this at the same price does a much better job of showcasing the decline in value. For further evidence, we can recall those recent character models of a similar price to the Celestant-Prime. Its seeming more and more like GW hasn't learned from the failure of 8th and is going to continue raising prices until AoS goes the same way for the same reason.

Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.

That being said, generally speaking, I 100% agree that there's price creep every year, and the most successful/popular companies are most guilty of it and essentially (happily, I think) enable each other. Essentially, they price t that way... because they can... and smaller companies have better prices.... because they have to.

At the end of the day, though, from a modeling perspective, it's all about how much you love the model versus how much you're willing to pay for it. And, what material it's made out of, to an extent.

To a certain extent price creep is justified; inflation being an obvious factor, but also newer models tend to be flat out better than the ones they replace. But no company other than GW comes close to doubling prices from 2011 to 2015. Indeed the overall cost to play the game is down, but if the trend continues at the typical GW rate people will be priced out again. Though I don't follow 40k releases, so maybe the creep is exaggerated because sigmarites & khornebloods are the poster-boys for GW's new game. I may be jumping the gun but GW hasn't exactly inspired confidence lately (or, you know, in years).

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Talys wrote:

Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.

I am not so sure about that. Most PP things that cost >=40$ are big. Just looking through Cirlce Orboros (my faction), only the gargantuan, battle engine, Extreme (-ly large and metal and silly) warpwolf, and Brennos (oddly) are over 40$. Every other beast or caster character is $35 or below, even the bigger ones with buddies in the pack. There really isn't much in the way of single models you are going to spend >$40 on from PP, and if you do they are really huge. And not HIPS, for some ridiculous reason. But still, big. Tall as Big McLargehuge there is, he is no Warpwolf

$40 for a big, but not much bigger than a chaos terminator lord, model is a bit above the normal market price. Sure, if people are hot for it, makes sense that they will buy it. But wow, they are right out of my price range, even if I did think the sculpt was cool.

You are totally right about the character models, GW models are generally slightly more expensive, though not really excessively so. I recently compared side-by-side with Bradigus with Dominus; they're about the same price and size -



Both are beautiful models, though it's hard not to see that Bradigus is a simpler model. Either way, both are expensive for the size of model. I also wasn't cherry picking; they just happened to be new releases back in April or so, and I had purchased them both around the same time. Malifaux, by the way, has pretty pricy plastic.

Where it evens out is that the troop models, which are still generally very nice models (for both). GW clocks in at anywhere from $4-$7, and with "special" or "elite" models in the $8-$11 price point. There are some outliers both ways, but not a ton; whereas PP really doesn't have models in this range.

At one point, I would have said that it's really a throwback to WHFB and larger armies, so the PPM *had* to be a little smaller. But then, the new boxes like the Dryads actually increased the model count per box, and many of the new boxes and repacks are all 10+, with some army bonuses kicking in at 20, so who knows.

While it is expensive. In GW terms the price hasn't went up that much. I mean how many folks were expecting more £30 plus characters, or units of 20 for less Tha £40. I just a fiver but those blood reavers are damn useful. The annual report said it all. We won't lower prices, but what we will do is release kits in different amounts of content for new prices. Yeah some are bat s£!t crazy but others have been pretty good value

Rethinking it, I realize that the Dryad repack and the Bloodreavers are why I even notice the prices at all. If it weren't for the tiniest glimmer of hope that GW had at least adjusted their pricing scheme then I would have glanced at the cost, shrugged, and moved on accepting it as par for the course.

Man, I'm glad I already have three more Prosecutors* from bits sellers that cost almost nothing. Ten Euro or so, with shipping. Less than a third, nay, FOURTH of GW's box. Their prices aren't even worth laughing about their absurdity any more. If they ever release a guy on Dracorath (or whatever that's called) and a "Mighty Lord of Khorne" with flesh hound, then they'll charge more for those two than the whole AoS starter, I bet.

It's a shame, because I actually *like* the "soulless automaton" look of the Stormcast, IF you contrast a small amount of them with regular humans. Without that "human element" their sense of scale and extravagant equipment is lost in a sea of sameness.

*I wanted to slap spears, hoplite shields and horsehair crests on them, now GW even delivers rules, how lovely of them. I mean, I don't really want to play AoS, but having the option to have an use for conversion projects is nice.

Now do spear and shield Liberators (or just rules)

Oh damn. There goes my wallet.

I like everything but the lantern. Why the hell does it have wings?

Theme I guess?

Or so he can put two hands on his sword without losing Light maybe?

 Talys wrote:
Well, I think they are clearly addressing the issue of an expensive game by reducing the models, rather than the price per model. I still think the models are in line with Malifaux and WMH, though, and WMH is where they should be in the realm of pricing. I don't think they need to be any cheaper per model, certainly, to be competitive from a purely price perspective.

Interestingly: I'm not sure that this claim is entirely correct! I've been reading the AoS threads and there are reports that the game seems to be somewhat more self-balancing once you get to a certain game size (i.e. 200+ models a side) - When the game reaches a certain critical mass of models, the Sudden Death objectives are more workable as the smaller army will have more resources to devote to achieving it, and the defending army will have more models at its disposal to work as well. Also, at this level, battleshock actually becomes a significant factor!

IMHO, comparing AoS releases to Malifaux really paints GW in an unflattering light. Malifaux and Infinity are the two of the lowest model-count games out there, where you are very unlikely to be running more than 15 models per game. Most Malifaux starters come with between 6-7 dudes - $45msrp. (Caveat, I haven't played!) From what I can determine - add a few henchmen, and you're off to the races for under $100 investment. Most of the 60mm base HIPS dudes that you can buy for Malifaux are $35msrp... which again, reflects badly on GW's pricing. The detail isn't bad at all, though the aesthetic isn't for everyone. I had the opportunity to paint Kaeris at Gencon - I'm happy to report that on the newest plastics - the details are very fine and crisp, the posing is dynamic and cinematic. The main beef I have so far is that the assembly aspect of the models is poorly thought out and the dynamism in the models somewhat hampers painting... especially since the stupid models don't go together easily!

Infinity (which I do play) is significantly more expensive as the starters only contain about half the dudes you need at MSRP~$55 (varies somewhat), and buying the upgrades can be inefficient due to CB repacking the minis the boxes with all the options instead of individual blisters.

Ah, so that's how GW trounced Chapterhouse in that legal battle- they had a troop of winged Stormcasts working for them :p

(* Thank you, I'll be here all week *)

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I like everything but the lantern. Why the hell does it have wings?

Flying zapper of doom? Plus he can always hang the lantern from his belt and go 2 handed and hack things with the sword?

I'm okay with the Stormcast prices for the elite stuff but what stops me is the Liberators box price. The base dudes are 5 guys for $60 in Canada. It's just too much. I wish that pack had been at least 6 guys.

TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote:
I'm okay with the Stormcast prices for the elite stuff but what stops me is the Liberators box price. The base dudes are 5 guys for $60 in Canada. It's just too much. I wish that pack had been at least 6 guys.

Thats why you dont buy the box of them. You get them in the starter, or buy extra starter sets for dirt cheap. Wait til bits come out of you want them with other weapons. Thats my plan. Got 2 starters so thats a solid 20 guys, friend has a set I use so really 30 liberators. I plan to convert the special weapons from the bits that are sold

str00dles1 wrote:

TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote:
I'm okay with the Stormcast prices for the elite stuff but what stops me is the Liberators box price. The base dudes are 5 guys for $60 in Canada. It's just too much. I wish that pack had been at least 6 guys.

Thats why you dont buy the box of them. You get them in the starter, or buy extra starter sets for dirt cheap. Wait til bits come out of you want them with other weapons. Thats my plan. Got 2 starters so thats a solid 20 guys, friend has a set I use so really 30 liberators. I plan to convert the special weapons from the bits that are sold

I'm with you just wish the base troops were a bit cheaper on their own. Judicators too. Want to make a Stormcast gunline but that adds up fast.

Just a tiny bit of news here, but most of the scenery kits that were OOP are now back, including the Garden Of Morr http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Garden-of-Morr

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Just a tiny bit of news here, but most of the scenery kits that were OOP are now back, including the Garden Of Morr http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Garden-of-Morr

Good to see the scenery back! Especially the garden of Morr!

How do the prices compare to their pre-disappearance prices? They're not showing on the U.S. site yet. The Garden of Morr was one of their nicer kits, and the old terrain was actually a decent value.

Price is exactly the same IIRC.

 keezus wrote:

Interestingly: I'm not sure that this claim is entirely correct! I've been reading the AoS threads and there are reports that the game seems to be somewhat more self-balancing once you get to a certain game size (i.e. 200+ models a side) - When the game reaches a certain critical mass of models, the Sudden Death objectives are more workable as the smaller army will have more resources to devote to achieving it, and the defending army will have more models at its disposal to work as well. Also, at this level, battleshock actually becomes a significant factor!

Just wow.
200+ models...

The new models work out at £6 each in the UK. So a game costing £1200 (about $1800) per side should be good?

And people said WFB was expensive to get into.
:-(

Funny, I've never once played a game of 200+ models and haven't felt that games have been too unbalanced...

Battleshock is always a factor, and Sudden Death objectives aren't used in the majority of scenarios with no significant issues for most armies.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Just a tiny bit of news here, but most of the scenery kits that were OOP are now back, including the Garden Of Morr http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Garden-of-Morr

I hope you are right, but I think it is more that they found some remaining stock. What other OOP pieces are back up? I don't see anything unique there on any of the main 3 sites besides the Morr on the UK site.

There definitely are some regional differences as well, Magewraith for starters.

Also as Guildsman says, Morr is not on the US site. Not on Aus either. It is also weird how on the UK site, it is not listed under the scenery tab, but under the AoS tab.

When I was recently and unexpectedly able to buy one from a online retailer (after special order), it went out of stock after purchase. So I guess we will wait and see!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Funny, I've never once played a game of 200+ models and haven't felt that games have been too unbalanced...

Battleshock is always a factor, and Sudden Death objectives aren't used in the majority of scenarios with no significant issues for most armies.

Hi. Like I said: I don't play, just reading observations. 200 isn't tough to get to if the player is using horde units like Skaven Clanrats, Goblins etc with unit sizes heading towards the high breakpoints for abilities. This obviously won't be the case for an army like Stormcast Eternals. The player posted commentary noted that with small units, character "ignore battleshock" abilities were more potent due to being able to fit your units into his/her aura. Also, larger unit size w/ mixed units (unit+character) would change the dynamic of the pile-in moves due to priority and because not everyone can get in.

Just found those observations interesting. The game is still new and there is no prescribed way to play... I just wanted to note that the game isn't necessarily going to a "small model count" system... i.e. <30 models/side, unless the army is VERY elite. From GW's pricing structure, those elite armies are still going to pay through the nose, as the characters are clocking in at regiment prices.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
The new models work out at £6 each in the UK. So a game costing £1200 (about $1800) per side should be good?

And people said WFB was expensive to get into.
:-(

TBF, a decent chunk of WFB armies would have cost that much to build up to common play levels. At any rate, AoS works much better as smaller sizes than WFB 8th did. If you need balance then there are tons of comp systems out there that will do it to varying degrees of success. Once I found a comp that worked my AoS games have been well balanced regardless of size.

Good to see the scenery back! Especially the garden of Morr!

Agreed. With those back AoS has a nice range of fancy terrain in a ruleset that is far more friendly to using them.

 keezus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Funny, I've never once played a game of 200+ models and haven't felt that games have been too unbalanced...

Battleshock is always a factor, and Sudden Death objectives aren't used in the majority of scenarios with no significant issues for most armies.

Hi. Like I said: I don't play, just reading observations. 200 isn't tough to get to if the player is using horde units like Skaven Clanrats, Goblins etc with unit sizes heading towards the high breakpoints for abilities. This obviously won't be the case for an army like Stormcast Eternals. The player posted commentary noted that with small units, character "ignore battleshock" abilities were more potent due to being able to fit your units into his/her aura. Also, larger unit size w/ mixed units (unit+character) would change the dynamic of the pile-in moves due to priority and because not everyone can get in.

Just found those observations interesting. The game is still new and there is no prescribed way to play... I just wanted to note that the game isn't necessarily going to a "small model count" system... i.e. <30 models/side, unless the army is VERY elite. From GW's pricing structure, those elite armies are still going to pay through the nose, as the characters are clocking in at regiment prices.

Seen any battle reports of Wood Elf Waywatchers against any army that outnumbers them 2:1 in "The Trap" warscroll?

Unless the Waywatchers roll poorly...it's a shutout.

@keezus - dunno how anyone plays AoS with 200 models per side, but I haven't tried. It seemed like a small, fast, light, and fun game with 30 or so models, and got slower at 50 or 60. I think on a small surface (like 3x3 mat on kitchen table) you could easily play AoS with 10-15 models a side and have a good time, more so than trying to cram 200 models, which sounds like it would require at least 8x12.

One of the issues is that AoS models are highly mobile; they just fly across the table, so it begs for a bigger table as the number of models climbs. Dice rolling 200 models sounds awful too, since there are no mechanisms to simplify combat resolution of high model count model units (just roll more dice).

But, to each their own -- it's not like I've played the game a whole ton, and don't own enough Fantasy models to field 200 if I wanted to

Age Of Sigmar Core Rules wrote: Typically, a game with around a hundred miniatures per side will last for about an evening

I'm quite aware that one can project a variety of interpretations onto this, and I'm sure someone will come back and say 'but that's only an example' but I'd argue the reason this size of game was offered as an example was to plant an idea into players' heads that this is the size of game they should be playing.

Currently we get through a game with about 90 models a side in about an hour and half - six turns last week................