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I finally broke out the old Hellcannon (and so did my opponent) and we had some questions about how you all play these units.

Can I target just the crew of a warmachine? Can I target just the warmachine? How are wounds divided up?

We haven't had any major rules problems thus far, but this one had us stumped.

You target crew or the machine.
Effectively you deploy two 'units' with a war machine warscrolls.
Three pieces of evidence for this; 1) when attacking, there's no mechanic for picking out models in a single unit bar special rules
2) there are no mechanics for determining save rolls if save values differ within the unit
3) some warscrolls use the terminology of a 'unit of crew'.

Also, with some Warmachines it is possible to hide the crew behind it (Hellcannon for instance). The warmachine gives a cover bonus to the crew, so they can be targeted if seen. We usually play it that attacks need to either ignore LoS, or come from the sides if crew are skulking behind warmachine)

That's how we've been playing it. It happens in this scenario that whoever goes first gets to kill the opponent's shooting. Thanks for the confirmation guys!

RoperPG wrote:
You target crew or the machine.
Effectively you deploy two 'units' with a war machine warscrolls.

Not in the case of the Hellcannon. There is nothing to support this. Unlike the Empire Warmachines, there is no mention of the crew being a unit separate from the Hellcannon.

Three pieces of evidence for this; 1) when attacking, there's no mechanic for picking out models in a single unit bar special rules

So? This does not support your assertion that the Hellcannon is two units in one.

2) there are no mechanics for determining save rolls if save values differ within the unit

Poor reasoning. Nothing in the Save rules require a unit to all have same Save, nor state that the models are separate targets when they are.

3) some warscrolls use the terminology of a 'unit of crew'.

Some, but not most, and definitely not all, and the Hellcannon Warscroll falls under "not".

The way we have played it is that the person shooting shoots at the unit... then the unit owner decides who is hit and makes saves accordingly. They are all one Warscroll therefore they are one unit.

Eg Empire cannon suffers 4 hits. owner decides to take two saves on the Crew and 2 saves on cannon itself. 1 Crew fails their 5+ save (6+ and cover) and dies while the cannon fails one 4+ and takes a wound. The unit is left with 2 crew and the cannon is on 3 wounds, any further wounds received by the unit must then be places on the cannon and it is already wounded.

Charistoph wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
You target crew or the machine.
Effectively you deploy two 'units' with a war machine warscrolls.

Not in the case of the Hellcannon. There is nothing to support this. Unlike the Empire Warmachines, there is no mention of the crew being a unit separate from the Hellcannon.

Three pieces of evidence for this; 1) when attacking, there's no mechanic for picking out models in a single unit bar special rules

So? This does not support your assertion that the Hellcannon is two units in one.

2) there are no mechanics for determining save rolls if save values differ within the unit

Poor reasoning. Nothing in the Save rules require a unit to all have same Save, nor state that the models are separate targets when they are.

3) some warscrolls use the terminology of a 'unit of crew'.

Some, but not most, and definitely not all, and the Hellcannon Warscroll falls under "not".

So given that you don't allocate wounds to anything until all save rolls have been made for all attacks, you're effectively saying that a warmachine owner can roll all saves against the warmachine, then allocate resulting wounds to whoever they want?
Your assertion also means that the 'crew count as being in cover within 1"'rule is irrelevant because in most cases the warmachine still has a better save.

The only solution if that's your intent is to randomise hits across the unit before rolling saves.
Another mechanic the game makes no mention of.

RoperPG wrote:
So given that you don't allocate wounds to anything until all save rolls have been made for all attacks, you're effectively saying that a warmachine owner can roll all saves against the warmachine, then allocate resulting wounds to whoever they want?
Your assertion also means that the 'crew count as being in cover within 1"'rule is irrelevant because in most cases the warmachine still has a better save.

The only solution if that's your intent is to randomise hits across the unit before rolling saves.
Another mechanic the game makes no mention of.

I didn't say that they did make sense or that there was another mechanic. I'm only saying that there is nothing that supports the definitions I quoted you as having made. If you want to repreface them as being the decisions of your group, that's fine, but the rules do not support the quoted statements.

If you go by simplest option, it is.
Some (not all!) War machine scrolls refer to the attendant crew as a 'unit'.

During any of the attack phases, you allocate hits to the unit.
Then save rolls are made.
If a WM and attendant crew are a single unit, you have to add steps and rules into the process to account for the differing save values.
And once you've then figured that out, you have to take a battleshock test. Which is weird, because while the crew have a bravery value, nearly all the warmachines have a value of '-', which means you can never pass a battleshock test. So what do you choose then?
Treating the Warscrolls as two units means you don't have any of those problems.

All warscrolls have different keywords for the crew and the weapon, meaning a unit effect could affect one or both. If they are a single unit, does the whole unit get the unique keywords? Or not? Or only part of the unit?

Finally, the Orc Bully.
Goblin warmachines make absolutely no mention of 'units'. They turn up with a crew.
The Orc Bully's sole purpose of existence is to make warmachine crews work harder.
His ability works on "units of Grot Crew". Except there's no such thing as a unit of Grot Crew because there is no such unit in the game.

I concede there is no explicit ruling on any of this, but going with the two unit model means all rules play exactly as read, everything works and functions.
Going with the 1 unit model causes the need for all sorts of rule amendments and fudging. As well as making the Orc Bully unemployed...

RoperPG wrote:
If you go by simplest option, it is.
Some (not all!) War machine scrolls refer to the attendant crew as a 'unit'.

During any of the attack phases, you allocate hits to the unit.
Then save rolls are made.
If a WM and attendant crew are a single unit, you have to add steps and rules into the process to account for the differing save values.
And once you've then figured that out, you have to take a battleshock test. Which is weird, because while the crew have a bravery value, nearly all the warmachines have a value of '-', which means you can never pass a battleshock test. So what do you choose then?
Treating the Warscrolls as two units means you don't have any of those problems.

All warscrolls have different keywords for the crew and the weapon, meaning a unit effect could affect one or both. If they are a single unit, does the whole unit get the unique keywords? Or not? Or only part of the unit?

Finally, the Orc Bully.
Goblin warmachines make absolutely no mention of 'units'. They turn up with a crew.
The Orc Bully's sole purpose of existence is to make warmachine crews work harder.
His ability works on "units of Grot Crew". Except there's no such thing as a unit of Grot Crew because there is no such unit in the game.

I concede there is no explicit ruling on any of this, but going with the two unit model means all rules play exactly as read, everything works and functions.
Going with the 1 unit model causes the need for all sorts of rule amendments and fudging. As well as making the Orc Bully unemployed...

So, still going with assumptions as rules? Not quite valid, still. Even using another Warscroll to define the Hellcannon? Shall we Nagash to define Karl Franz next?

And no, not all (though MOST) of the War Machines and Crew are separated. The Skaven Warp Lightning Cannon does not even recognize any other models as Crew, and has all of them in place just like a Monster.

And there is nothing about multiple profiles and keyword arrays indicating multiple units on one Warscroll.

The method of separating the War Machine and Crew as separate units may be one of the easiest way to resolve it, but it is STILL just a House Rule as you have yet to present the actual rule that separates what is presented on a Warscroll as more than one unit.

RoperPG wrote:
You target crew or the machine.
Effectively you deploy two 'units' with a war machine warscrolls.
Three pieces of evidence for this; 1) when attacking, there's no mechanic for picking out models in a single unit bar special rules
2) there are no mechanics for determining save rolls if save values differ within the unit
3) some warscrolls use the terminology of a 'unit of crew'.

I disagree.

The rules say that the owner of the unit taking the wounds decides which model in the unit to apply the wound to. So when a unit composed of a warmachine and crew takes a wound, the unit owner allocates the wound to the machine or crew. However, once the owner starts allocating wounds to a model, he has to keep allocating to that model until it's slain. So if you allocate to the machine you have to keep allocating to the machine until its destroyed. You can't then switch to crew using them as ablative armor.

Okay. Point taken.
But I'm now going to flip this round.
You are asking me to provide the one specific rule. I Acknowledge there isn't one, bug kinda why this discussion is being had, no?

But please do show me the explicti rules that are required to support a) allocating hits to models with different save values within a unit, b) allocating wounds to the unit after this (as wounds can multiply outside of hits), and c) how a unit that contains a null/mixture of battleshock values can take a battleshock test.

If you treat the Warmachine and Crew as separate units (where separate profiles are given) every rule works exactly as written. If you combine them as a unit, rules stop working without tinkering of additional steps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bede19025 wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
You target crew or the machine.
Effectively you deploy two 'units' with a war machine warscrolls.
Three pieces of evidence for this; 1) when attacking, there's no mechanic for picking out models in a single unit bar special rules
2) there are no mechanics for determining save rolls if save values differ within the unit
3) some warscrolls use the terminology of a 'unit of crew'.

I disagree.

The rules say that the owner of the unit taking the wounds decides which model in the unit to apply the wound to. So when a unit composed of a warmachine and crew takes a wound, the unit owner allocates the wound to the machine or crew. However, once the owner starts allocating wounds to a model, he has to keep allocating to that model until it's slain. So if you allocate to the machine you have to keep allocating to the machine until its destroyed. You can't then switch to crew using them as ablative armor.

But you don't allocate wounds until after saving throws have been taken. Which save value do you use?

Bede19025 wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
You target crew or the machine.
Effectively you deploy two 'units' with a war machine warscrolls.
Three pieces of evidence for this; 1) when attacking, there's no mechanic for picking out models in a single unit bar special rules
2) there are no mechanics for determining save rolls if save values differ within the unit
3) some warscrolls use the terminology of a 'unit of crew'.

I disagree.

The rules say that the owner of the unit taking the wounds decides which model in the unit to apply the wound to. So when a unit composed of a warmachine and crew takes a wound, the unit owner allocates the wound to the machine or crew. However, once the owner starts allocating wounds to a model, he has to keep allocating to that model until it's slain. So if you allocate to the machine you have to keep allocating to the machine until its destroyed. You can't then switch to crew using them as ablative armor.

This is exactly the way we have been playing. If the player takes the wounds starting on the war machine, he has to keep piling wounds on the war machine until it is destroyed. Same if he chose the crew. Then you are left with a war machine and no crew to utilize it.

I usually start taking wounds on the war machine first (For my Reaper Bolt Throwers) because I can "tank" the wounds on the machine, and when it dies I have two crew members who can join the fight. This usually leaves me with two crew members running across the field for a few turns and never quite participating in the match, lol.

I haven't seen a hellcannon in our group yet, but I think we'd play it as separate units. If only for the reason that making them 2 separate units prevents obvious problems like which Save to use. The attacker can then target either the warmachine or crew as he sees fit (but couldn't target the Crew if the cannon blocked LOS).

As stated in the preamble to the compendiums (compendia???), the warscrolls describe the capabilities of models, and the description "will also tell you if the model is fielded on its own as a single model, or as part of a unit. If the model is fielded as part of a unit, then the description will say how many models the unit should have".

The warscroll says a "Hellcannon is a single model that is
attended by 3 Chaos Dwarf Crew", which is hardly crystal clear. I'm happy to take the description of the Hellcannon as a single model to mean it is a standalone unit, and I'm taking the attending 3-man crew to mean another unit. I get that it's vague though.

It is vague, but the assertion that they are separate units is backed up by a lot of circumstantial evidence from other warscrolls.
That isn't conclusive by any means.
The assertion that they *are* a single unit means that the combat and battleshock phase rules just stop working when the target is a warmachine unless you add extra steps or make up your own rules.

Unfortunately GW was fairly inconsistent with their treatment of multiple model units across the Age of Sigmar warscrolls. Here are some examples from across the warscrolls:

Skink handlers & salamanders:

Completely separate warscrolls and units, with no requirements for the size of either or even that both be taken. The rules simply provide some synergy between them, but make it crystal clear you are free to take handlers, or salamanders, or both, but once the game starts they're just two separate units that happen to influence one another.

Dwarf miners & mining cart:

This one is particularly odd. You can bring a Mining Cart, which the rules tell you "has 4 wounds instead of 1" - implying the cart is borrowing stats from the miners to start with, but is part of the unit. The rules then tell you it uses a different melee attack and provides gear, but you otherwise have to assume it adopts the movement, bravery, and armor save values of its unit.

Casket of souls:

This looks like any other monster with additional models in Age of Sigmar (steggadon, stonehorn, etc.). The description notes that there is a casket, a keeper, and 2 casket guards, but everything is compressed into a single multi-wound statline despite the presence of multiple models.

Screaming skull catapult, dwarf cannon, repeater bolt thrower, etc.:

The warscroll provides two separate statlines, but only a single "description" field telling you to bring the machine and the crew. The description includes an ability called crewed artillery, crewed war machine, duardin artillery. All of those rules have the same wording:

(1)The machine can only move or shoot if its crew are within 1" at the start of the relevant phase
(2)The machine can't charge, suffer battleshock, or take be affected by anything that uses bravery
(3) The crew are in cover while within 1" of the machine

That rule has a number of implications with respect to our analysis.

(1) There is no mechanic allowing for models in the same unit to be more than 1" away from one another (the only thing I could think of would be a giant eating a model in the middle of a unit?). Technically page 1 of the rules says "If anything causes a unit to become split up during a battle, it must reform the next time that it moves," so that makes it a bit of a mixed bag, but the 1" requirement seems to imply an independently moving crew unit.

(2) Exempting the machine from charging and bravery mechanics but giving the crew a bravery value implies the crew don't share the charge/bravery exemptions. Otherwise the crew should also have a "-" value for bravery. This also implies the machine and the crew operate as independent units, rather than one unit with different kinds of models (like miners and pony).

(3) As others have stated, the different save value for the crew and the machine doesn't work with the main attacking rules (note though that this isn't always an issue - high elf bolt throwers and their crew have the same save). The rules tell you to roll to hit, wound, and save - only then can you allocate wounds. As written, the rules do not contemplate and cannot handle a single unit containing models with different saves.

For all of those reasons, I'm hard pressed to see "it's one unit and after being shot you allocate wounds" as the proper interpretation for these crewed war machines. The warscrolls compel you to take crew with war machines, and details their interaction, but otherwise it looks like they are two units for the purpose of shooting, close combat, etc.

Hellcannon:

Remember that nice consistent "crewed war machine" rule all of those other artillery pieces have? The hellannon doesn't have that rule. The hellcannon itself DOES have a bravery characteristic, and it has a similar "crew with 1" table describing how its abilities are impacted by the number of nearby crew, but it's not the same class of "crewed war machine." It then picks up the "can only shoot with crew within 1" portion of "crewed war machine" under "doomfire" and the "cover" portion of "crewed war machine" via its own "daemon-forged cover" rule.

So this is weird, but by comparing all of the units and reviewing the basic rules, I come to the following conclusions:

(1) Unlike most crewed warmachines, A hellcannon can move and charge independently from its crew.
(2) For both the hellcannon and other crewed war machines, the crew is a separate unit and as such can move away from the warmachine if they so desire (or are so compelled). They can be shot separately and targeted separately in close combat.
(3)Non-hellcannon war machines are valid targets in close combat, but lack melee weapons, the ability to charge, and bravery mechanics.
(4) Occasionally the "caged fury" rule will cause the cannon to move (2d6") on its own. The crew can, but don't have to, move to catch up, and they might be too slow to do so depending on rolls.

Here's one fun final question: If the caged fury roll is failed, ". . . the Hellcannon must move as far as it can towards the closest visible enemy unit."

(1) Can the hellcannon run? I can't think of a reason why it couldn't.
(2) Does a "caged fury" forced move count as the hellcannon's move for the movement phase? I'd argue it must, otherwise the rule would have little to no game impact as the cannon's owner could send it right back (to the crew, if alive) any time it failed the roll.
(3) Must the hellcannon run? This one is interesting. If you play that the "caged fury" move counts as its normal rule, and that rule tells you to "move as far as it can towards the closest visible enemy unit," there's a strong argument to be made your cannon has to run, and as such won't be able to shoot that turn.

And if there are no visible units, nobody knows what happens.

We have started playing that the person getting shot chooses how to allocate wounds. This is a semi tactical decision as you have to balance the possibility of degrading the weapon or outright destroying it. It seemed to work very well and made the Hellcannon scary but not overpowered.

We also play that the owner allocated the wounds. We have not had any issues at all yet.

Nerm86 wrote:
We also play that the owner allocated the wounds. We have not had any issues at all yet.

Which bravery stat do you use?
Which save value do you use as that has to happen before you allocate wounds?

RoperPG wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
We also play that the owner allocated the wounds. We have not had any issues at all yet.

Which bravery stat do you use?
Which save value do you use as that has to happen before you allocate wounds?

We play that the owning player can choose whether to take the crew's save or the warmachine's save, but they them have to allocate any resulting damage to the crew or warmachine the same way. In other words, you can use your crew's save, but then you have to allocate all resulting damage to the crew models first. If you pick the warmachine's save, you have to allocate all resulting damage to the warmachine first. For Battleshock tests, we always use the crew's bravery. Conceptually, they're the ones who would be running.

Well the Hellcannon is supposed to be a demon, right? So I guess its rules make sense.

 Kriswall wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
We also play that the owner allocated the wounds. We have not had any issues at all yet.

Which bravery stat do you use?
Which save value do you use as that has to happen before you allocate wounds?

We play that the owning player can choose whether to take the crew's save or the warmachine's save, but they them have to allocate any resulting damage to the crew or warmachine the same way. In other words, you can use your crew's save, but then you have to allocate all resulting damage to the crew models first. If you pick the warmachine's save, you have to allocate all resulting damage to the warmachine first. For Battleshock tests, we always use the crew's bravery. Conceptually, they're the ones who would be running.

What he said. Obviously use the crews battleshock for tests, spells etc as not only does the cannon not have a battleshock stat, its description says its immune to all things battleshock related, its not like you would remove the cannon if the unit failed a battleschock test, you would remove the crew. I thought all this was kinda obvious . Things like "Soul Steal" would only go against the crew as it requires a battleshock roll off... also cannons don't have souls.

Nerm86 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
We also play that the owner allocated the wounds. We have not had any issues at all yet.

Which bravery stat do you use?
Which save value do you use as that has to happen before you allocate wounds?

We play that the owning player can choose whether to take the crew's save or the warmachine's save, but they them have to allocate any resulting damage to the crew or warmachine the same way. In other words, you can use your crew's save, but then you have to allocate all resulting damage to the crew models first. If you pick the warmachine's save, you have to allocate all resulting damage to the warmachine first. For Battleshock tests, we always use the crew's bravery. Conceptually, they're the ones who would be running.

What he said. Obviously use the crews battleshock for tests, spells etc as not only does the cannon not have a battleshock stat, its description says its immune to all things battleshock related, its not like you would remove the cannon if the unit failed a battleschock test, you would remove the crew. I thought all this was kinda obvious . Things like "Soul Steal" would only go against the crew as it requires a battleshock roll off... also cannons don't have souls.

But you're allocating hits in those circumstances, and AoS has no rule, mechanic or precedent for that.

That is my point. If you treat Warmachine & crew as separate units, the rules work as-is, there are no complications, everything makes sense.

If you treat them as a single unit, you have to do things out of sequence or invent steps that aren't there.

Also, little shaky using the wording on the Empire Cannon battlescroll to back up your position, as it is one of the few that actually does refer to the crew as a distinct unit to the warmachine itself.
In addition, it does not say the cannon is "immune" to Battleshock, it says the cannon does not need to take Battleshock tests.
Which is weird, because the crew do, so how do you satisfy both conditions as a single unit...?

Nerm86 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
We also play that the owner allocated the wounds. We have not had any issues at all yet.

Which bravery stat do you use?
Which save value do you use as that has to happen before you allocate wounds?

We play that the owning player can choose whether to take the crew's save or the warmachine's save, but they them have to allocate any resulting damage to the crew or warmachine the same way. In other words, you can use your crew's save, but then you have to allocate all resulting damage to the crew models first. If you pick the warmachine's save, you have to allocate all resulting damage to the warmachine first. For Battleshock tests, we always use the crew's bravery. Conceptually, they're the ones who would be running.

What he said. Obviously use the crews battleshock for tests, spells etc as not only does the cannon not have a battleshock stat, its description says its immune to all things battleshock related, its not like you would remove the cannon if the unit failed a battleschock test, you would remove the crew. I thought all this was kinda obvious . Things like "Soul Steal" would only go against the crew as it requires a battleshock roll off... also cannons don't have souls.

Hellcannons have souls. They have tons of souls. I'm pretty sure that's what the little Chaos Dwarf crew guys are feeding into the ammo hopper.

Units of 1 model are immune to battle shock anyway as it works on models lost not wounds. Why would it bother mentioning that the cannon was immune to battle shock if they were a 1 model unit separated from the crew. it means that if you fail a battleshock test then the warmachine itself doesn't run away as it is immune, the crew must run. They are one warscroll... therefor one unit.

If you treat them as separate units then what is the point of giving the cannon wounds or a save if you can just target the much more vulnerable crew separately, especially as their save and wounds are worse. Who would ever choose to target the warmachine and not the crew. Treating them as one unit makes more sense both from a "realistic" and "thematical" point of view, it is more logical. If you upset about allocating hits then use the warmachines save and then assign the wound where you want to. The crew are hiding behind the machine anyway. A precedent for that would be using a shields re-roll 1s ability and then remove a model without a shield if you fail (stormcast liberator special weapons for example)

No, units of one model are *not* immune to battleshock by default.
They just don't test under normal circumstances because if they lose a model, the unit is gone anyway.

There is a difference between 'immune' and 'doesn't have to test'.
It's not a case of 'logical' or 'I feel'. Treating Warmachines and attendant crew as two separate units (which is inferred by a number of warscroll entries), then the AoS rules work perfectly. Without, you are adding steps such as determining which save to use, allocating 'hits' rather than wounds, etc
The Liberator rule isn't really applicable here as it's a specific rule to that unit, and the model itself doesn't count as having a shield but relies on another model in the unit having a shield. And again, you don't allocate the hits.
If anything, the Liberator rule is evidence for separate units as they needed to include a special rule on the warscroll for units containing models with different save rules.
Warmachines have no such special rule on their warscrolls, which would suggest that it isn't needed because it isn't an issue. Because they are separate units.

I'm really uncertain about the correct way to handle this, but I'm loathe to house rule it if RAW actually works.

Taking the Dwarf Cannon as a specific example, the Warscroll describes 2 kinds of models, and the Description clearly says that a Dwarf Cannon consists of a War Machine and 3 Crew. Nothing new here, except that I'm saying we should take the warscroll as read and the the Dwarf Cannon is a UNIT like any other unit that consists of multiple models. So how does combat work....

0. Enemy select the Dwarf Cannon as a target
1. Rolls Hits as normal
2. Rolls Wounds as normal

3. Saves. The defender makes save rolls and "If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit, the wound is saved...If not,...determine damage on the target unit"

Assume for now that at least 1 of the Crew in the Dwarf Cannon unit are > 1" from the War Machine, so do not get their cover save. These models have a 5+ save, and the War Machine and in-close Crew have a 4+ save. So what happens if a 4 save roll is made? A save roll of 4 does not equal or beat the Save characteristic of the models in the unit (there is at least one with 5+ save), so the save fails.

4. Determine Damage as normal
5. Inflict Damage as normal. This means that the owner can choose to apply wounds to the War Machine or the Crew models, but has to keep doing so until you run out of wounds or the model is slain.

I don't think you have to house rule the attack process, nor do you have to consider the different types of models as separate units. It just works if you play literally as read. When models in a unit have different Save values, step 3 requires you to equal or exceed the worst Save value otherwise the condition is not satisfied and the Save fails.

PS. This also helps explain the reference to the war machine not taking battleshock tests. If any or all of the crew die, and the battleshock requires removal of more models, the war machine is immune.

Nerm86 wrote:
Units of 1 model are immune to battle shock anyway as it works on models lost not wounds. Why would it bother mentioning that the cannon was immune to battle shock if they were a 1 model unit separated from the crew. it means that if you fail a battleshock test then the warmachine itself doesn't run away as it is immune, the crew must run. They are one warscroll... therefor one unit.

If you treat them as separate units then what is the point of giving the cannon wounds or a save if you can just target the much more vulnerable crew separately, especially as their save and wounds are worse. Who would ever choose to target the warmachine and not the crew. Treating them as one unit makes more sense both from a "realistic" and "thematical" point of view, it is more logical. If you upset about allocating hits then use the warmachines save and then assign the wound where you want to. The crew are hiding behind the machine anyway. A precedent for that would be using a shields re-roll 1s ability and then remove a model without a shield if you fail (stormcast liberator special weapons for example)

Units of 1 model are not immune to battleshock (they just can't suffer consequences from it), and a number of abilities (banshee howl, etc.) can force them to make battleshock style rolls, which I think explains the immunity granted by the rule. Now or in the future there may well be special rules that cause battleshock tests outside of the normal combat sequence, making immunity worth being explicit about.

As to why anyone would target the machine if it's a separate unit, the answer is easy: positioning. Depending on the model and the basing choices, you could easily have the machine 5" or more closer to the enemy than the crew, which would have a significant impact on range. Charging units might not be able to make it to the crew, archers might only have the choice of shooting the machine if they're not close enough, etc.

There are also spells and abilities that put mortal wounds on all units in a certain range, which are more potent if both the machine and crew can take wounds than if the unit's owner only rolls once and can allocate to the machine.

If you treat the crew and machine as one unit, and a banshee howl causes it to suffer wounds, would you allow wounds to be taken on the machine? That's kind of an absurd result: the machine has no leadership and is immune to that test, but its "unit" fails the roll, and then the units owner can allocate wounds from a banshee howl to a cannon that was immune to the howl? Doesn't make much sense. The alternative of saying the crew and cannon both get immunity to howls is also absurd. Saying that howl wounds must come from the crew and not the cannon "makes sense," but that's just another example of a hack necessary to make war machines "work" as a single unit.

Finally, the fact that the machine grants cover to the crew is a strong argument for two units as opposed to one. A unit granting some of its own models a cover save is an absurd result in a game that doesn't include mechanics for mixed save units and requires all models in a unit to be in cover to receive a save.

Snapshot wrote:
I'm really uncertain about the correct way to handle this, but I'm loathe to house rule it if RAW actually works.

Taking the Dwarf Cannon as a specific example, the Warscroll describes 2 kinds of models, and the Description clearly says that a Dwarf Cannon consists of a War Machine and 3 Crew. Nothing new here, except that I'm saying we should take the warscroll as read and the the Dwarf Cannon is a UNIT like any other unit that consists of multiple models. So how does combat work....

0. Enemy select the Dwarf Cannon as a target
1. Rolls Hits as normal
2. Rolls Wounds as normal

3. Saves. The defender makes save rolls and "If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit, the wound is saved...If not,...determine damage on the target unit"

Assume for now that at least 1 of the Crew in the Dwarf Cannon unit are > 1" from the War Machine, so do not get their cover save. These models have a 5+ save, and the War Machine and in-close Crew have a 4+ save. So what happens if a 4 save roll is made? A save roll of 4 does not equal or beat the Save characteristic of the models in the unit (there is at least one with 5+ save), so the save fails.

4. Determine Damage as normal
5. Inflict Damage as normal. This means that the owner can choose to apply wounds to the War Machine or the Crew models, but has to keep doing so until you run out of wounds or the model is slain.

I don't think you have to house rule the attack process, nor do you have to consider the different types of models as separate units. It just works if you play literally as read. When models in a unit have different Save values, step 3 requires you to equal or exceed the worst Save value otherwise the condition is not satisfied and the Save fails.

PS. This also helps explain the reference to the war machine not taking battleshock tests. If any or all of the crew die, and the battleshock requires removal of more models, the war machine is immune.

Huh. I think you cracked it.

Ehhh... reading "the save characteristic of the models in the target unit" to mean "the worst save characteristic of the models in the target unit" is very strained - given that every non-warhmachine unit in the game unambiguously has one save characteristic for the entire unit, and all game mechanisms impacting saves affect the entire unit, and there's no method of mixing models with different saves into the same unit.

Actually I take that back - technically you can cast mystic shield on a zombie unit and then join it with a non-shielded zombie unit, at which point nobody knows what happens (although it would be better play to just cast your shield after merging instead of before, so it's unlikely to ever actually come up)

Sure, taking the worst save value resolves the mixed save issue that a single unit warmachine causes, and it seems more fair than the alternative, and we're only wondering about it because of insufficiently clear rules - but it's still a very strained reading.