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coelomate wrote: Ehhh... reading "the save characteristic of the models in the target unit" to mean "the worst save characteristic of the models in the target unit" is very strained - given that every non-warhmachine unit in the game unambiguously has one save characteristic for the entire unit, and all game mechanisms impacting saves affect the entire unit, and there's no method of mixing models with different saves into the same unit.
Actually I take that back - technically you can cast mystic shield on a zombie unit and then join it with a non-shielded zombie unit, at which point nobody knows what happens (although it would be better play to just cast your shield after merging instead of before, so it's unlikely to ever actually come up)
Sure, taking the worst save value resolves the mixed save issue that a single unit warmachine causes, and it seems more fair than the alternative, and we're only wondering about it because of insufficiently clear rules - but it's still a very strained reading.
I think it's more like this:
"the save characteristic of the models in the unit"
Interpreted as
"The save characteristic of all the models in the unit"
Which doesn't seem like such a stretch, it works even without the "all".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/19 18:40:47
coelomate wrote: Ehhh... reading "the save characteristic of the models in the target unit" to mean "the worst save characteristic of the models in the target unit" is very strained - given that every non-warhmachine unit in the game unambiguously has one save characteristic for the entire unit, and all game mechanisms impacting saves affect the entire unit, and there's no method of mixing models with different saves into the same unit.
Actually I take that back - technically you can cast mystic shield on a zombie unit and then join it with a non-shielded zombie unit, at which point nobody knows what happens (although it would be better play to just cast your shield after merging instead of before, so it's unlikely to ever actually come up)
Sure, taking the worst save value resolves the mixed save issue that a single unit warmachine causes, and it seems more fair than the alternative, and we're only wondering about it because of insufficiently clear rules - but it's still a very strained reading.
I think it's more like this:
"the save characteristic of the models in the unit"
Interpreted as
"The save characteristic of all the models in the unit"
Which doesn't seem like such a stretch, it works even without the "all".
I think it's "THE save characteristic of the models in the unit", because there's only ever one...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/19 18:50:31
I can't argue that it requires a particular parsing of the instruction about how saves work, but we have to work with what we've been given.
"equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit" can really only mean all of the models. If we were allowed to be selective, it would say "..a model..." or "...at least one model...", or something similarly specific.
Also, treating these "multi-save" units just like any other unit has several consequences.
You target the unit as a whole (no sniping the war machine or crew).
They must maintain coherency like any other unit
For units like the Dwarf Cannon, you better make sure all the crew are within 1" of the war machine, or it just got easier to kill
The unit owner has wound allocation rights, so assigns wounds based on what is best for his side
NB: As has been pointed out in a different post, when you have completed allocating wounds for THIS attack, wounds from the NEXT attack (from a different unit) are not obliged to go on an already wounded model. Eg, 2 Wounds from Attack 1 could go on the war machine, and a subsequent 1 Wound from Attack 2 could be allocated to a Crew, even though the war machine is already wounded.
Bottle wrote: Makes that 4+ save on warmachines essentially useless because the only time it will be used is when the crew are already all dead...
Wow, these rules could definitely do with some more clarity lol, but I think you guys have the right RAW interpretation now.
Agreed. Are there any special rules that affect specific models rather than units though? I've not done an exhaustive search, but every "multi-save" unit I've seen have 4+ on the war machine and 5+ on the crew, with Cover if you keep them close. Given how strong war machines are, I don't think this is a game breaker.
PS. Except of course, if the crew are close, the worst save in the unit is 4+, so the 4+ isn't useless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/19 23:45:46
High elf bolt thrower has a 5+ save and its crew have also have a 5+ save, meaning the crew should have a better save than the machine while within 1" of the machine, as it has the standard crewed warmachine rule.
Under a "one unit" interpretation and a "use the worst save" reading, there is thus no circumstance where the crew can benefit from cover granted by the warmachine. So the rules tell you the crew gets a bonus to its save for being near the machine, but because of the strained interpretations required to make the "one unit" reading work, it's impossible for the crew to ever benefit from that rule, as the machine will have a worse save (of course if the machine and crew are in cover, both benefit and you don't need the special rule).
Another absurd result if you treat the machine and crew as one unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 00:22:52
Here's another interesting datapoint: the screaming skull catapult has rules for a skeleton crew summoning spell, which sheds some more light on GW's general concept of crew and machine:
Raise Skeleton Crew Raise Skeleton Crew has a casting value of 5. If successfully cast, pick a Screaming Skull Catapult from your army within 18" which has no remaining crew. You can set up a unit of up to 3 Skeleton Crew within 1" of the war machine. The unit is
added to your army and can crew that war machine, but cannot move in the following movement phase.
IMO this also bolsters the "two units" theory for crewed war machines:
(1) The new Skeleton Crew are refereed to as "a unit" that you set up within 1" of the war machine, not being added to the war machine's still existing, merely crewless, unit. It also isn't phrased as the war machine's old unit being having skeletons added to it, which would make more sense under a "one unit" interpretation.
(2) "The unit is added to your army and can crew that war machine" seems to make it clear that after this spell has been cast, the three crew and the one catapault are two different units. Compare and contrast zombies, whose "shambling horde" rule explicitly merges two units into one. So GW rules writers know how to write rules for merging units, and instead here they're talking about the unit of skeletons as distinct from the machine. That implies the machine and its original crew were also two different units - or else this spell would be adding models to a unit, or creating a unit then merging it, or resurrecting models, or something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oooh, here's another argument for "Two units":
The Screaming Skull Catapult keywords are: Death, War Machine, Screaming Skull Catapult
Its Crew has a different set of keywords: Death, Skeleton, Deathrattle, Crew
There are TONS of VC/TK spells and abilities that affect the skeleton and Deathrattle keyword. Here are some examples:
Spoiler:
Stern Taskmaster: In your hero phase, you can pick a Deathrattle unit within 8" of this model. That unit can move an extra 3" in its next movement phase. Furthermore, you can re-roll wound rolls of 1 for that unit in the combat phase until your next hero phase.
My Will Be Done: If a Tomb King uses this ability, pick one Skeleton unit within 18". Until your next hero phase you can add 1 to all hit, run and charge rolls for that unit..
Standard of the Undying Legion: In your hero phase, a Tomb Herald can plant his standard and cause fallen warriors to return to the fight once more. If he does so, you may not move the Tomb Herald until your next hero phase, but you can immediately return 1 slain model to each Deathrattle unit from your army within 24".
Righteous Smiting: As the verses of this incantation are spoken, a fierce light emanates from the empty eye sockets of the Liche Priest’s warriors who move with unnatural speed and fury. Righteous Smiting has a casting value of 5. If successfully cast, pick a Skeleton or Reanimant unit within 18". Until your next hero phase, all models in the unit are imbued with magical power; each time you roll a hit roll of 6 or more for one of these models, it can immediately make one extra attack using the same weapon.
Observations:
(1) Notice how frequently the rules refer to a UNIT having a certain keyword. This implies that units are what posses keywords, not models. Hence the existence of both a "screaming skull catapult" and a "crew" list of keywords implies they are two different units.
(2) If you use a "one unit" interpretation, many of these abilities yield head-scratching results. Does "My Will Be Done" let the catapult add 1 to hit? It's not a "Skeleton" but if you play the catapult and crew as a single unit, then some of the models in the unit have the keyword, so maybe? It's messy unless you consider the machine and the crew as two distinct units, each with their own keywords. Everything works cleanly under a "two unit" interpretation.
(disclaimer: again this is all trying to understand the RAW and RAI, not balance or how I think it should be played)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 03:04:00
coelomate wrote: Here's another interesting datapoint: the screaming skull catapult has rules for a skeleton crew summoning spell, which sheds some more light on GW's general concept of crew and machine:
That is a damn good find, nice work!
The Orc Bully is another one - he prevents units of Grot Crew needing to take battleshock tests.
As all Orc Warmachines specify the warmachine itself doesn't need to take battleshock tests, the Orc Bully's existence infers that the warmachine and crew are discreet units - because you can't simultaneously take AND not take a battleshock test for a single unit, which is what you would have to do if there was no attendant Bully nearby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/20 09:49:22
Bottle wrote: Ah, and I was thinking of the Empire cannon, with a crew save of 6+, the 4+ of the cannon is useless.
Not entirely useless. Situations arise where the warmachine is sitting on an objective. I'd have to kill the cannon to knock it off the objective.
Or it's possible that all I can draw line of sight to, or all that is in range is the cannon.
