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I just read up on scions, and OH MY GOD THIER FLUFF

I just...... I am in love.

so how can this transmit into the game?

I was thinking making their PPM 10, and not having to pay a 20 point premium for a minimum 5 man squad in the AM codex.

any other ideas are welcome, because the idea of a small unit talking over comms, deepstriking into a ruined building, checking corners, becoming overwhelmed, and then tactically retreating into a corner and holding until their last bullet for support.

Thanks!

Maybe give them a higher leadership? For cold-calculating killing machines they have the leadership of a guard squad

Maybe they can give themselves special orders (that you don't need to make any rolls for), you can choose whether passed normal orders override them when you make them.
Perhaps let them have more Special Weapons too, since that would be appropriate.

they can already take a ton of special weapons, but the orders are a great idea.

A good idea might be to give them ATSKNF. In the novels I've read they are very reluctant to actually run from a fight and prefer to stick around and murder heretics.

 HANZERtank wrote:
A good idea might be to give them ATSKNF. In the novels I've read they are very reluctant to actually run from a fight and prefer to stick around and murder heretics.

But... But MAH SPESS MEHREENS!

 gummyofallbears wrote:
they can already take a ton of special weapons, but the orders are a great idea.

Well it seemed like it was 2 to a squad or something similar, I was thinking letting everyone have one.
Please corect me if I'm wrong though.

Heir of the Void wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
A good idea might be to give them ATSKNF. In the novels I've read they are very reluctant to actually run from a fight and prefer to stick around and murder heretics.

But... But MAH SPESS MEHREENS!

The reactin of almost every Space Marine player everywhere upon hearing a suggestion to buff the Guard to even a vaguely similar level as the Marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Heir of the Void wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
A good idea might be to give them ATSKNF. In the novels I've read they are very reluctant to actually run from a fight and prefer to stick around and murder heretics.

But... But MAH SPESS MEHREENS!

The reactin of almost every Space Marine player everywhere upon hearing a suggestion to buff the Guard to even a vaguely similar level as the Marines.

If I'm paying for scout marine equivalents I want them to be useful. Its easy to just give them ATSKNF as it is now a USR in the BRB, I think more units should get access to it.

Scion sergeants should be able to give a limited selection of orders to their own squads.

The command squad should be able to give 2 orders.

Any Scion squad can receive up to 2 orders. Represents the fact that they're disciplined enough to take matters in their own hands, and still follow whatever the leader tells e'm.

That would work well!

Anyone got idea on what the orders should be?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Heir of the Void wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
A good idea might be to give them ATSKNF. In the novels I've read they are very reluctant to actually run from a fight and prefer to stick around and murder heretics.

But... But MAH SPESS MEHREENS!

The reactin of almost every Space Marine player everywhere upon hearing a suggestion to buff the Guard to even a vaguely similar level as the Marines.

As both a guard player and a marine player I feel conflicted by this

PE, Crusader and Fleet for the Sergeants.

Sniper, rending, TL should be given by the Command squad. Along with the other threes.

Wouldn't giving them sniper screw up wounding? Or do you mean Precision Shots?

In any case, I thought of a Relentless order from the Sarge, would that be too much?

Honestly I think the biggest problem with Scion's is their auto-issued lasguns. 18" range with only str. 3 and ap 3. Just too much goofy stuff mixed together to be effective.

Either higher strength or longer range would really help them out. Right now their stock load-out is just too eclectic.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Wouldn't giving them sniper screw up wounding? Or do you mean Precision Shots?

In any case, I thought of a Relentless order from the Sarge, would that be too much?

All the orders I mentionned are already in the codex

clamclaw wrote:Honestly I think the biggest problem with Scion's is their auto-issued lasguns. 18" range with only str. 3 and ap 3. Just too much goofy stuff mixed together to be effective.

Either higher strength or longer range would really help them out. Right now their stock load-out is just too eclectic.

Well, giving them all access to the Special Weapons would help, then they could all have stronger/longer ranged weapons as needed.

Bobthehero wrote:All the orders I mentionned are already in the codex

Fair enough, doesn't really answer my question though.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

In any case, I thought of a Relentless order from the Sarge, would that be too much?

Eh, the Scions don't have heavy weapons, but I guess shooting then assaulting would feel very stormtrooper-y. I like it. Since Scions kinda suck in CC, its not very OP, either.

ATSKNF won't do much for Scions anyhow since they more often than not get wiped out in shooting so the regrouping part of the rule doesn't do much and in terms of close combat it doesn't add much either.

As mentioned previously, a big issue comes from paying a premium for AP3 on their guns but the lack of range and strength make it heavily dependent on orders to make it worthwhile to fire. They should take a page out of the Skitarii codex and make the hotshot lasgun S3 AP3 assault 2 if it stays at the 18" range. This way scions can put a decent amount of firepower at a range that doesn't require them to be within easy charge range. Give them an extra CCW in their base profile like in the old dex and it synergizes well to give them a commando like feel of charging in. Should the hotshot volley gun change to accommodate this? An assault 4 hotshot volley gun might warrant it being a 15 point upgrade rather than the 10 it is now.

Also Tempestor Primes should definitely have at least access to getting a refractor/conversion field. How do Scions, who also come from the Schola Progenium like Commissars, lack access to refractor fields?

Other than that, lower the costs for Taurox Primes (and make them command vehicles for orders if access to Chimeras are still withheld in the main codex) make Scions Ld8 base and the other suggestions by Bobthehero and it sounds pretty good.

Refractor fields and most imperial power fields are very iridescent and hot. The forge world stealthy marine captain lacks one for this reason, the refractors in Gaunt shimmer constantly from across the battlefield.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Refractor fields and most imperial power fields are very iridescent and hot. The forge world stealthy marine captain lacks one for this reason, the refractors in Gaunt shimmer constantly from across the battlefield.

Right, but the fact that you can take a Lord Commissar (which comes with a refractor field) with Scions heavily implies the nature of Scions as being less a stealth unit and more shock troops. So the shield's presence wouldn't matter that much anyhow given their lightning attacks.

what if they were LD8, and the taurox prime became 65 points, and a command vehicle? Might be too cheap, but I don't think so.

In addition all the orders?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Heir of the Void wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
A good idea might be to give them ATSKNF. In the novels I've read they are very reluctant to actually run from a fight and prefer to stick around and murder heretics.

But... But MAH SPESS MEHREENS!

The reactin of almost every Space Marine player everywhere upon hearing a suggestion to buff the Guard to even a vaguely similar level as the Marines.

Literally NO Space Marine player is crying to this suggestion.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Eh, the Scions don't have heavy weapons, but I guess shooting then assaulting would feel very stormtrooper-y. I like it. Since Scions kinda suck in CC, its not very OP, either.

Fair enough, could be some use to it though because of the Hot Shot Volley Gun and perhaps adding the Grav Gun to the Special Weapons list. Maybe also adding the option for a Heavy Weapon perhaps, thought of three ways to do it:
1) One guy per squad can just pick from that list, maybe with some equipment or bionics on the model to explain how he can hold the damn thing.
2) Option to swap two of the Scions for a "Tempestus Weapons Team" a la some of the other IG units.
3) Just letting them add a singular HWT to the squad.
Or maybe just a limited array of "Heavy-ISH Weapons" - either custom or some other picks - for one guy in the squad.

Though I will say that while that's good input, I was referring to the Sniper order question.

I don't like the idea of the HWTs.

scions, in my opinion, are the mobile "stormtroopers" of the IG, they deepstrike and are meant to hit hard, like an infantry hellhound, but then they get shot off the board, with doing little damage because of S3.

I used them this weekend (a small unit and a command squad in a taurox prime) and this was what I saw with them.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I don't like the idea of the HWTs.

Right, Tempestus is a light infantry force with a very limited logistical support. They do supposedly have good equipment and influence though. You might be able to put in psuedo-HWTs consisting of snipers, or forward fire controllers who direct off-map weapons.

I would add in lots of special equipment to make the squads more exciting, along with a true senior HQ, to fill out the codex. Clarion Vox, Auspex, Monoscopes, better grenades, pistols, there's lots of stuff on the fluff to work with. Senior sergeants who confer different bonuses on their squad. There's lots of potential in customizing squads rather than having different units, and I think it fits the concept of the force better.

Nothing with universal carapace armour is light infantry...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nothing with universal carapace armour is light infantry...

I'm not saying "light infantry" in the context of an armour save in 40k. I'm saying it in the context of an organizational structure in contemporary armies.

You can get some idea by reading the introduction here. http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/HistoricalPerspectiveonLightInfantry.pdf

I say just buff their stats so they're actually worth their points.

For the AM scions a leadership buff and assault 2 18" hot shot lasguns along with giving the scion platoon command squad senior officer would make them worth their points, by allowing them to get enough volume of fire to have an impact and the leadership and order changes making their special weapons effective enough to hurt tougher targets despite only having 2 per squad.
Personally I'd quite like a CC buff in exchange for a small points increase, WS and I 4 like the D-99 force and maybe an extra attack, they're never going to become CC monsters but combined with the assault 2 hotshots they would better fit the storm trooper role, bullying weaker troops off objectives but would still get chewed up by dedicated CC armies, would differentiate them from being veterans with deep strike.

For the MT codex the force needs expanding a fair bit to make it reasonable, the biggest weaknesses in my eyes being a turn one presence on the table as all the points going on deep strike is wasted on these units; as well as lack of sky fire and ignore cover.
I've had a few ideas for a fandex, the main ones being to give the basic troops and command squads able to "customise" weaponry, if this thread doesn't die off I'll probably expand on new units but for now these are the upgrades I've been thinking off:
(all Tempestus units keep move through cover)

Armour upgrades (hoping to make these roughly point equivalent so they can be a straight swap in and out would be interested if folks think they're about right)
Grav trooper- 4+ save and deepstrike trooper we all know and love
Recon trooper- 5+ Save, shrouded and infiltrate (ghillie suits ahoy)
Storm trooper- 4++ save, HoW counter attack (riot shields, enclosed helmets, probably not the most effective but I want an excuse to model them might be useful for command squads and body guards for ICs)

Weapon upgrades (again hopefully equivalent)
Standard rifle- 18" rapid fire
carbine- 12" assault 2
Long-las- 36" heavy 1

Sight upgrades (these cost additional points, feedback would be appreciated I'm hopeless at costing.
Mutispectrum 2pts per model- enemy cover saves -2, (with auspex's being only -1 at 12" this feels unfluffy but not sure -1 would be worth it, either way "super thermal imaging sights" allowing enemy enemy to be spotted behind cover making it easier to pick them off when they stick their heads up, useful for offensive units)
Motion tracker, 2pts per model- intercept a single unit with in 12" snap shot at BS2 (again useful for a body guard unit but also handy offensively for allowing slightly more pain to be inflicted on all those "invisible units" with out making them useless. Also elite space troopers battling xenos calls for an aliens rip off)

Got a few ideas for characters in the elites section similar to AM priests, as well as heavy support based Flinty's exo-suits (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/112768-.html?m=2) and the love children of ogryn and wolf guard, but want to see if folk are thinking if I'm going down the right lines.