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Since the days of the Horus Heresy, the Imperiums focus has been almost entirely on preservation. Innovation is looked down upon as unholy and any new tech must jump through a myriad of analytical and theological hoops before being allowed into service. As such, a great number of the mighty machines from the Great Crusade and subsequent generations of tech have become less than perfect reflections of their predecessors.

Can the same be said for the space marine and the process undertaken to make them?
I understand the taint of chaos and mutation cause changes and can hurt the gene-seed of the chapters, but is the overall procedure becoming less and less efficient and effective over time?

Example: Would a space marine, say a traitor Dark Angel alive today, be a better "model" than a Dark Angel who recently completed the final stages of becoming a marine?

Is there any lore out there involving marines admitting that the process, maybe the surgeries, machines and genetic materials, are becoming worse and worse over time?

My questions more involve the genetic materials rather than resources, weapons and systems available. Those could be debated forever in terms of effectiveness.

Marines of today are largely identical to their 30k counterparts in terms of genetics. There have been some mutations but that is more of an individual case thing rather than mass degradation.

However, there is some evidence that shows that modern day Space Marines outclass 30k ones due to superior training.

Yep, the Space Marines are indeed getting weaker as time goes on.

Most chapters have at least one non-functioning implant, or are missing that implant outright. Some have more.

Some still have the implant but it functions oddly. For example, the Iron Snakes still have their Betcher's Gland, but lack the ability to produce venom - instead, they have to absorb and reformulate toxins that enter their bloodstream through other means.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, the Space Marines are indeed getting weaker as time goes on.

Most chapters have at least one non-functioning implant, or are missing that implant outright. Some have more.

Some still have the implant but it functions oddly. For example, the Iron Snakes still have their Betcher's Gland, but lack the ability to produce venom - instead, they have to absorb and reformulate toxins that enter their bloodstream through other means.

Uh, what? Since when did the Ultramarines and Dark Angels suffer from gene seed mutations, especially when the Ultramarines comprise the majority of all Space Marine Chapters?

The only ones suffering from mutations have ALWAYS had one gene seed organ malfunctioning.

Equipment wise possibly, although (and oddly in contrast to how stagnant 40k usually is) the Mk 8 SM armor is vastly superior. However, things like terminator armor and many of the vehicles (sicaran, etc.) are defintley lost compared to heresy marines.

I would argue though that the chapter setup, and length of time of service, might make current marines better trained and possibly motivated compared to the quick recruitment of the heresy era legionaries.

In terms of geenseed, other than losing the belchers gland, the ultramarines, which comprise the vast majority of marines, is till as good as the time of the emperor.

The Rites of Initiation Index Astartes article did actually state: "As well as mutant implants, many Chapters have lost one or more types of gene-seed due to accident, genetic failure, or some other cause. Very few Chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants."

But it would appear that almost nobody at GW ever actually *read* that bit.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, the Space Marines are indeed getting weaker as time goes on.

Most chapters have at least one non-functioning implant, or are missing that implant outright. Some have more.

Some still have the implant but it functions oddly. For example, the Iron Snakes still have their Betcher's Gland, but lack the ability to produce venom - instead, they have to absorb and reformulate toxins that enter their bloodstream through other means.

Uh, what? Since when did the Ultramarines and Dark Angels suffer from gene seed mutations, especially when the Ultramarines comprise the majority of all Space Marine Chapters?

The only ones suffering from mutations have ALWAYS had one gene seed organ malfunctioning.

The Ultramarines may have everything functioning, but not all of their successors do... such as the Fire Hawks' World Eater-like battle thirst being ascribed to a geneseed flaw akin to that of the Blood Angels.

What I do know is that not all successor chapters share their predecessors' purity. For example, the Mantis Warriors have their preomnor flaw, while the White Scars are flawless.

Edit: Ultras are missing the Betcher's Gland? Well, there you go then. Point proven.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yep, the Space Marines are indeed getting weaker as time goes on.

Most chapters have at least one non-functioning implant, or are missing that implant outright. Some have more.

Some still have the implant but it functions oddly. For example, the Iron Snakes still have their Betcher's Gland, but lack the ability to produce venom - instead, they have to absorb and reformulate toxins that enter their bloodstream through other means.

Uh, what? Since when did the Ultramarines and Dark Angels suffer from gene seed mutations, especially when the Ultramarines comprise the majority of all Space Marine Chapters?

The only ones suffering from mutations have ALWAYS had one gene seed organ malfunctioning.

The Ultramarines may have everything functioning, but not all of their successors do... such as the Fire Hawks' World Eater-like battle thirst being ascribed to a geneseed flaw akin to that of the Blood Angels.

What I do know is that not all successor chapters share their predecessors' purity. For example, the Mantis Warriors have their preomnor flaw, while the White Scars are flawless.

Edit: Ultras are missing the Betcher's Gland? Well, there you go then. Point proven.

What? Ultramrines aren't missing any glands, you're thinking of the Imperial Fists. Also the Fire Hawks were party of the Twenty-First founding, when the AdMech had the bright idea of playing lego genetics with marine gene-seed.

We all know how that turned out.

In 30K it took a legion to conquer a planet in 40k you need only 1000 marines

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
In 30K it took a legion to conquer a planet in 40k you need only 1000 marines

Marines aren't used to conquer planets in 40k, though. That's what the 'guard is for. And when they conquer stuff, they use so, so many bodies.

Equipment may have degraded, but the only technology that has truly been "lost" is tech that was being phased out or redeveloped into better tech at the height of the horus heresy. Everything else is present in one way or another, albeit in a worse- off state. But the kind of indoctrination that battle brothers of 40k go through does wonders, especially given what space marines are used for in 40k as opposed to 30k

I'd say they've gotten better.
Guilliman reformed them to remove physical and spiritual weakness after all.
Then all you have to do is look at the caliber of the Space Marines in the 41st millennium in comparison to the Marines of yesteryear. I believe even though it's been said that every Chapter Master of the Ultramarines has been great, Calgar is the greatest since Guilliman, and the heir apparent Sicarius has only a single loss to his name.

Chaos renegades from the original Legions deem them as thin blooded versions of themselves but they still seem to be able to hold back Black Crusades and the like.

So although some suffer from failure of some of the required organs that make them what they are they still seem to be as good as ever. I don't believe they are any stronger or weaker but how they deal with situations has improved over time, so I guess that would be better tactics or something. The Codex Astartes might have a few more additional chapters added to it.