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And a shotgun is an absolutely terrible weapon against an armored target like a Space Marine. I mean, you are better off hitting the guy with the butt of the weapon rather than throwing tiny pellets at him.

IRT redundant systems... that's great and all, but there's only so much room in their torso to pack organs. With the explosive nature of a bolt round (and don't buy that bit about "molecular blades" that doesn't make any sense, and is not at all what we see in the gunfights in-game) a couple bolter rounds in the chest is likely to absolutely pulverize all their hearts and lungs in a go (this is a .75 cal round exploding like a small grenade inside its body), and dump rather copious quantities of their liquid nervous system onto the floor.

My vote is for the Krogan Battlemaster. Such a beast is, at least, comparable to a Nob. But also a brilliant tactician. Also probably rocking Power Armour equivalent.

He'll also have psychic powers. Any of the "paralysis" type powers render a marine as useless as anything else that's a sitting target. Ready access to "haywire" type powers render his tech useless. Plus, Krogan regenerate. Like, put your bloody chunks back together quickly enough and you're a-ok after a little while.

The perceived weakness in-game of the ME weapons is comparable to the perceived in-game weakness of 40k weapons. If every weapon one-shot every other being in existence, it wouldn't be much of a game, nor would it allow any range of failure on the player's part.

Space shuttles have nearly had their windshields caved in by what was later determined to be a fleck of paint. When you have the technology to alter mass properties, you can accelerate a... one gram... projectile as though its mass were 1% of it's true property. So given that our world has soldier-portable weapons capable of destroying lightly armoured vehicles... and we could then increase that effectiveness by 100 times... we could take down entire platoons of combat-ready vehicles in a single clip. At such velocities, you don't even need to lead a target, or account for projectile "droop" as the projectiles could be moving at 50 000 km/h.

The kicker, is that Krogan have access to a black market shotgun that would, according to the in-game fluff, tear any other non-organic's limbs from their shoulders. So, based on the fluff, we're talking about something that should be on-par with at least a Strength 9 shotgun.

Kinetic Barriers, on the other hand, are the counterpoint to that ability to accelerate a projectile. By making the mass-property less, it's easy to stop the projectiles from transferring energy to you. More to the point, a Bolt could not enter your body to explode, as the "mass-reactive" heads would be triggered upon entering the mass-altering fields. At that point...

The equivalent of an Ork Nob in Power armour, with a force field, that has IWND, and unknown Psychic Powers is being hit by something along the lines of a frag grenade.

In retaliation, that Battlemaster is shooting a Veteran Marine with a shotgun, containing the kick of a Lascannon.

Imagine Ork Nobs with access to Tau / Eldar levels of technology. With Psychic Powers. That's a Krogan Battlemaster.

Tiny pellets against power armor do nothing yes. But tiny pellets accelerated to ridiculous speeds will shear right through it. Just like paint chips and space stations.

ME shields are able to stop a moderate amount of hits from these weapons. I don't think a bolt shell would even do anything to the shields. They explode internally anyways, so they would probably flatten, bounce off, or just explode harmlessly on the shields. They aren't going fast enough and they have too much surface area to pierce through a shield designed to stop narrow small projectiles going at insane speeds. Id like to think a space marine could dump his whole mag into a krogan and just see big fat bolts bouncing everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
My vote is for the Krogan Battlemaster. Such a beast is, at least, comparable to a Nob. But also a brilliant tactician. Also probably rocking Power Armour equivalent.

He'll also have psychic powers. Any of the "paralysis" type powers render a marine as useless as anything else that's a sitting target. Ready access to "haywire" type powers render his tech useless. Plus, Krogan regenerate. Like, put your bloody chunks back together quickly enough and you're a-ok after a little while.

The perceived weakness in-game of the ME weapons is comparable to the perceived in-game weakness of 40k weapons. If every weapon one-shot every other being in existence, it wouldn't be much of a game, nor would it allow any range of failure on the player's part.

Space shuttles have nearly had their windshields caved in by what was later determined to be a fleck of paint. When you have the technology to alter mass properties, you can accelerate a... one gram... projectile as though its mass were 1% of it's true property. So given that our world has soldier-portable weapons capable of destroying lightly armoured vehicles... and we could then increase that effectiveness by 100 times... we could take down entire platoons of combat-ready vehicles in a single clip. At such velocities, you don't even need to lead a target, or account for projectile "droop" as the projectiles could be moving at 50 000 km/h.

The kicker, is that Krogan have access to a black market shotgun that would, according to the in-game fluff, tear any other non-organic's limbs from their shoulders. So, based on the fluff, we're talking about something that should be on-par with at least a Strength 9 shotgun.

Kinetic Barriers, on the other hand, are the counterpoint to that ability to accelerate a projectile. By making the mass-property less, it's easy to stop the projectiles from transferring energy to you. More to the point, a Bolt could not enter your body to explode, as the "mass-reactive" heads would be triggered upon entering the mass-altering fields. At that point...

The equivalent of an Ork Nob in Power armour, with a force field, that has IWND, and unknown Psychic Powers is being hit by something along the lines of a frag grenade.

In retaliation, that Battlemaster is shooting a Veteran Marine with a shotgun, containing the kick of a Lascannon.

Imagine Ork Nobs with access to Tau / Eldar levels of technology. With Psychic Powers. That's a Krogan Battlemaster.

This

I see no reason whatsoever why anyone would think the shots of ME guns would shear through PA and boltguns would bounce off shields. Did you know there's a grenade launcher in ME? Do you know what it does? It blows apart pretty much everyone it touches, shields or no. And it's just explosive. Boltguns are a smaller caliber, so I'll buy that it's a twoshot, not a oneshot. But 'bouncing off'? Hahah no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:

Space shuttles have nearly had their windshields caved in by what was later determined to be a fleck of paint. When you have the technology to alter mass properties, you can accelerate a... one gram... projectile as though its mass were 1% of it's true property. So given that our world has soldier-portable weapons capable of destroying lightly armoured vehicles... and we could then increase that effectiveness by 100 times... we could take down entire platoons of combat-ready vehicles in a single clip. At such velocities, you don't even need to lead a target, or account for projectile "droop" as the projectiles could be moving at 50 000 km/h.

I still have no idea why people think ME weapons do this when we repeatedly see normal guys get shot by these weapons and survive. Your character does it several times, in cutscenes, as well as doing it to others. There would be no shoot to wound if they acted like that.

ME firearms are like lasguns, they are good because of logistics. In terms of firepower, their impressiveness is middling. In the two posts above me, I see a lot of fanfiction, and little else.

Again, everything has barrier shields.

Unstoppable objects meeting immovable objects. Plus, as already mentioned, you're comparing 40k Fluff to ME Crunch. Turn it around, and you see the same thing. A Guardsmen, standing out in the open, survives a round of "rapid fire" 31% of the time.

Now, if we imagine a nob in power armour, with a shield that gives projectiles -1 strength, we see a Krogan Battlemaster ignoring 86% of the damage. And he'd still have a wound, as a 2 wound creature, even if he took one wound. And then IWND.

Turn that around, and we fire even a Scout Shotgun back at that marine, we see the marine has a 79% chance of survival... except that if he takes one wound, he's toast.


So don't compare in-game crunch from ME to the out-of-game Fluff of 40k.

Space shuttles have nearly had their windshields caved in by what was later determined to be a fleck of paint. When you have the technology to alter mass properties, you can accelerate a... one gram... projectile as though its mass were 1% of it's true property. So given that our world has soldier-portable weapons capable of destroying lightly armoured vehicles... and we could then increase that effectiveness by 100 times... we could take down entire platoons of combat-ready vehicles in a single clip. At such velocities, you don't even need to lead a target, or account for projectile "droop" as the projectiles could be moving at 50 000 km/h.

While you can do this in ME, they don't do this. The man-portable weapons aren't investing that kind of money and power in their construction to permit anyone with 500 credits to buy a pistol that fires bullets at relativistic speeds. If they *did* permit this, you'd hole the hull of any ship you got into a firefight on, and ME1 would have ended the first time Shep & Co got into a gunfight aboard any one of those freighters hauling Geth you track down, as Wrex, Williams or Garrus blows through a bulkhead and vents the cabin into space.

In retaliation, that Battlemaster is shooting a Veteran Marine with a shotgun, containing the kick of a Lascannon.

Lascannons don't have kick. They fire a beam of light that is virtually mass-less and requires no physical explosion to generate (like a regular bullet does). It uses extreme heat to melt through targets in microseconds.

Shotguns fire tiny pellets designed to rend flesh. They suck against anyone wearing armor of any kind. This is true IRL as well as in-game. Want to know why they recommend a shotgun for home defense? A 12GA shotgun won't blow through the drywall inside your house, thus preventing you from accidentally shooting your spouse or child through a wall while firing at an intruder in the dark.

There's also the fact that Newtonian physics come into play. If you fire a shotgun at relativistic speeds, the recoil will be relativistic as well. You might blow yourself backwards in time. The people who wrote ME are game designers, not physicists. The bolter, at least, works on some well-understood ballistic principles. As it is in 40K, most of their weapons are written very much in "Rule of Cool", rather than considering what they've written actually means.

As to kinetic barriers? They drop in a stiff breeze. A bolter fires in bursts. First two rounds explode and take the barrier down, next two punch through your PA and into your chest cavity. Then explode. Now, your internal organs are liquefied and pouring out of the fist-sized holes in your chest. Having redundant nervous systems means that hurts a number of times equal to the number of nervous systems you have. Why anyone thought this was a good idea is beyond me. Then the Marine, whose reaction times are many times above a Krogan's, fires again.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Again, everything has barrier shields.

Unstoppable objects meeting immovable objects. Plus, as already mentioned, you're comparing 40k Fluff to ME Crunch. Turn it around, and you see the same thing. A Guardsmen, standing out in the open, survives a round of "rapid fire" 31% of the time.

Now, if we imagine a nob in power armour, with a shield that gives projectiles -1 strength, we see a Krogan Battlemaster ignoring 86% of the damage. And he'd still have a wound, as a 2 wound creature, even if he took one wound. And then IWND.

Turn that around, and we fire even a Scout Shotgun back at that marine, we see the marine has a 79% chance of survival... except that if he takes one wound, he's toast.


So don't compare in-game crunch from ME to the out-of-game Fluff of 40k.

I would love to see how on earth you make PA comparable to what Krogan wears.

Do you have any idea of what PA does? It shrugs off Autocannon rounds (Nightbringer) and whole belts of frag grenades (Hammer and Bolter) without issue.

In what precious little ME fluff actually exists that we can use, that with Krogan gear in it no less, they really do not seem that impressive.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Turn it around, and you see -

- a Space Marine killing a thousand Orks alone. Orks are big, brutish, much stronger and tougher than humans - comparable to Krogan, if more dim.

Space Marine is equally canon to the tabletop game.

Believe me, if we are resorting to comparing game mechanics, Krogan do not come out ahead.

Essentially Krogan are Space Marine equivalents.

They are similar in many ways, except in a couple of things which are

-Technology
-Speed
-Emotion
-Scale

Technologically, the greatest assets Krogan have will be their weapons. The shields they have protect against solely physical projectiles; but explosives, plasma, melee all circumvent this. Hell a bolter can be shot next to them and the splash will go through the shield. But their weapons offensive potential is limited to solely how much recoil the user can withstand. I can see their sniper rifles equaling the vindicare's rifle. I would call this a wash. Whoever shoots their ranged weapon first wins. Melee? I give it to the Space Marine.

Krogans are as fast as humans. Space Marines are faster than humans. 'Nuff said.

Emotion, Krogan go into battle rages. They are sometimes put down because of this. When they go into said battle rage they melee. Space Marine wins in melee even if they are a Black Rager (especially if they are a Black Rager).

Scale, more Krogan than Space Marine at their respective peaks. Krogan breed very fast, in a direct war it would be a very even fight.

1 vs 1 = Space Marine win
Species vs. SM = unknown

The Krogan have no real answer to a Battle-barge. They rely on other species to give them warships and move them around the galaxy, either individually or en masse. They have no defenses against a cyclonic torpedo.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Krogan have no real answer to a Battle-barge.

That's what you think! Urdnots, load that thresher maw into the cannon!

 Psienesis wrote:
The Krogan have no real answer to a Battle-barge. They rely on other species to give them warships and move them around the galaxy, either individually or en masse. They have no defenses against a cyclonic torpedo.

Yeah, if we go large scale it falls even more in favor of the Space Marines. They can and will shatter planets and any mass relays they come across.

And when in doubt, call the billions of battle-ready Imperial Guardsmen, and their supporting warcraft.

By feats a Marine is tougher and faster than a Krogan, but a Krogan BM has biotics, which a Marine has no defense against.

Essentially, with CIS off, either the Marine speed-blitzes the krogan and head-shots him with a bolt round before the Krogan can react, or the Krogan ragdolls the Marine with biotics and has his way with him. There isn't much of a middle ground.

It depends. Biotics are limited. They can't juggle just anything, it depends on the target's weight. And Astartes are heavy.

A Krogan with biotics is capable of lifting an APC (ME: Revelation). Juggling a Marine wouldn't be too difficult.

But even juggling a Marine does not stop him from shooting the Krogan in the face with the boltgun.

 Psienesis wrote:
But even juggling a Marine does not stop him from shooting the Krogan in the face with the boltgun.

It does when he's facing the wrong way. Those power packs on their back are fething enormous - especially with those pauldrons.

And? The war-spirit of the bolter is linked to the autosenses in his helmet. Point the bolter behind you, let it fire when the war-spirit lines up on a target.

 Psienesis wrote:
And? The war-spirit of the bolter is linked to the autosenses in his helmet. Point the bolter behind you, let it fire when the war-spirit lines up on a target.

A bolter is not magic - you still need to be able to point it at the enemy. Look at a SM model, they would have a pretty hard time achieving that.

The elbow can't bend fully back due to an elbow guard, a wrist cannot turn a full 180* /and/ point a gun, the arms cannot get around the pack, etc.

 Psienesis wrote:
And? The war-spirit of the bolter is linked to the autosenses in his helmet. Point the bolter behind you, let it fire when the war-spirit lines up on a target.

Im suddenly picturing a space marine shooting his bolt gun from under his legs......

But if we are talking about brand spanking first encounter. I highly doubt that a marine could react to a sudden pull and charge attack to the face.

I dont think 1v1 a krog would be able to pull and shoot (its been a while) but a head long charge while a marine is surprised would feth him up.

 Psienesis wrote:
And? The war-spirit of the bolter is linked to the autosenses in his helmet. Point the bolter behind you, let it fire when the war-spirit lines up on a target.

The barrel of the gun (and the Marine's face) still have to be pointing at what he wants to shoot. Jesus Christ.

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And? The war-spirit of the bolter is linked to the autosenses in his helmet. Point the bolter behind you, let it fire when the war-spirit lines up on a target.

A bolter is not magic - you still need to be able to point it at the enemy. Look at a SM model, they would have a pretty hard time achieving that.

The elbow can't bend fully back due to an elbow guard, a wrist cannot turn a full 180* /and/ point a gun, the arms cannot get around the pack, etc.

And the Krogan's tiny arms means he shouldn't be able to pull his armor on, and yet...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And? The war-spirit of the bolter is linked to the autosenses in his helmet. Point the bolter behind you, let it fire when the war-spirit lines up on a target.

Im suddenly picturing a space marine shooting his bolt gun from under his legs......

But if we are talking about brand spanking first encounter. I highly doubt that a marine could react to a sudden pull and charge attack to the face.

I dont think 1v1 a krog would be able to pull and shoot (its been a while) but a head long charge while a marine is surprised would feth him up.

You think a Space Marine hasn't trained to fight a Telekine? That's, like, Psychic Gifts 101.

 Psienesis wrote:


You think a Space Marine hasn't trained to fight a Telekine? That's, like, Psychic Gifts 101.

How rare are psykers
Why dont all space marines have adamantium will then?

I certainty dont think most space marines have trained against telekinesis. zero g fighting? sure but does power armor have zero g maneuvering gear and does it work in a low mass field? (who knows)

 Desubot wrote:
How rare are psykers
Why dont all space marines have adamantium will then?

Psykers are fairly common. In addition, that is game mechanics. In Deathwatch, all Astartes have Resistance (Psychic Powers), in case you want to argue mechanics.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
How rare are psykers
Why dont all space marines have adamantium will then?

Psykers are fairly common. In addition, that is game mechanics. In Deathwatch, all Astartes have Resistance (Psychic Powers), in case you want to argue mechanics.

That would be Death watch.

Is there actual fluff stating they train against pyskers?

death watch as in the rpg? the non cannon one?

additionally one training against psykers and one training against an effect they have no clue how it works as 1 is technology and the other warp magic would be two different things. its kind of a stretch.

There's no such thing as canon/non-canon when it comes to 40K.

Space Marines don't generally know how psykers work, either, they just train to react to the situation in which the psyker does something (like turn off gravity, set the world on fire, etc.).

Biotics are ME's version of Psychic Powers.

 Psienesis wrote:
There's no such thing as canon/non-canon when it comes to 40K.

Space Marines don't generally know how psykers work, either, they just train to react to the situation in which the psyker does something (like turn off gravity, set the world on fire, etc.).

Biotics are ME's version of Psychic Powers.

So where in fluff does it say they do train against psykers? err or psyker effects. in the sense that they have to be always aware of telekineses and or telepathy powers fething with them.

They train against, like, everything. Psykers are commonly encountered enemies, and they do have training sessions where they learn to counter specific enemies.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They train against, like, everything. Psykers are commonly encountered enemies, and they do have training sessions where they learn to counter specific enemies.

Like ok but where in fluff do they say that. its a big stretch to just say they do.

It's not. It's like saying they wouldn't train to face Orks because it's not explicitly stated - it's just stated they spend an hour or so per day to train specific tactics against enemy types and species.