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 greyknight12 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Just FYI, if you buy them wave serpents they can hit a target 26" away with 5 d-scythes (6" transport move, 6" disembark, auto 6" battle focus, 8" flamer template). And having T6 3+ fearless jump troops (6" move+6" battle focus) with D-flamers is way better than any other jump unit in the game. For example, against AP2 a squad of 5 is only 16.7% less survivable than a dreadknight while dealing out significantly more damage, for the same cost. They are not a bad buy at all in that formation.



The irony of the thread is that there were many like it before the latest codex, and most of them (like this one) came to the same conclusions. Then the Eldar got a new codex...

OK, so the wraithguard are overpowered when they are getting bonuses from two different formations, buy a 25 point per model upgrade that actually negated half the bonuses from their formation, and purchase a transport on top of that. Got it.

Nothing is wrong with the current eldar dex except the price of scatterlasers (need +5 point bump) the jetbikes need to give a 4+ save (other eldar jetbikes give a +1 save, and the Harlequin jetbikes is at a 4+ with the exact same armor design) and the wraithknight is 100 points undercosted (I updated the vehicle and monstrous creatures design rules from fourth edition, link in signature, and the wraithknight worked out that way when I was testing it against the other gargantuan)

As for D weapons, they are not that big of a deal. If you wanted to get distort right, give it the bonuses from last edition, but on a "6" to pen, it automatically causes an "explodes" result. As it stood, the str10 weapons never gave a damn about the 6 to pen because, believe it or not, there is no av17+ in the game right now.

hey consolidated multiple rules that were all trying to do the exact same thing mechanically, it isn't that big a deal unless you are running big points single model units.

No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

Burn it.

It's the only way.

I'd say a few things, like Wraith Knights... and get rid of the Strength D stuff... And the codex. Just get rid of the codex.

Just the D table. If it was: 1 - nothing happens, 2-6 - D3 hull points/wounds

The real kicker is the 6 result, without any kind of save this quickly becomes silly, but I think if it was always d3 wounds/hull points and allowed invulns and cover as per usual (since it is AP2) is much more friendly. That is a d weapon change and not a codex issue.

I think this would greatly bring the WK back into the right tax bracket. I have to assume that we're going to see more LOW SH/GMC priced this low in the upcoming codecies and FW
reprints. I just hope it's sooner than later.

That being said it is at least 50 points too cheap.

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

No, it would make the bikes fair and bring them back down to a sort of balanced state.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

No, it would make the bikes fair and bring them back down to a sort of balanced state.

But space marine bikes should stay the same.? With T5 and able to take grav.? Oh and if you take kann you can pretty much be in my deployment zone first turn.? Jet bikes are perfectly fine and what they should be. Look at the other jet bikes they all suck, thus why no one takes them

Dman137 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

No, it would make the bikes fair and bring them back down to a sort of balanced state.

But space marine bikes should stay the same.? With T5 and able to take grav.? Oh and if you take kann you can pretty much be in my deployment zone first turn.? Jet bikes are perfectly fine and what they should be. Look at the other jet bikes they all suck, thus why no one takes them

I dont play Marines and I have yet to face bikers but gak like scat spam and heavy weapon spam, especially on a chassis like the Eldar jetbike with its peek-a-boom special rules and the like is just plain broken.

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman THEY ARE TROOPS NOT HEAVY FETHING SUPPORT!

You compared them to a Space Marine squad earlier on, T4 3+ save. Guess what chief? Space Marines only get 1 Heavy weapon per 10 Marines. Why do you feel your Eldar are so special they get to take a heavy weapon per model? You are exactly the reason why people hate so much on the Eldar players in this game. You think everything is fine and every other army needs to just L2P.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman THEY ARE TROOPS NOT HEAVY FETHING SUPPORT!

You compared them to a Space Marine squad earlier on, T4 3+ save. Guess what chief? Space Marines only get 1 Heavy weapon per 10 Marines. Why do you feel your Eldar are so special they get to take a heavy weapon per model? You are exactly the reason why people hate so much on the Eldar players in this game. You think everything is fine and every other army needs to just L2P.

On bikes T5 andthey are so costly you're better off taking Devvies on Razorbacks. This post was good.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman THEY ARE TROOPS NOT HEAVY FETHING SUPPORT!



You compared them to a Space Marine squad earlier on, T4 3+ save. Guess what chief? Space Marines only get 1 Heavy weapon per 10 Marines. Why do you feel your Eldar are so special they get to take a heavy weapon per model? You are exactly the reason why people hate so much on the Eldar players in this game. You think everything is fine and every other army needs to just L2P.

Yep, people rather complain then just adapt and try new strategys, space marines have all the told to deal with eldar bikes and then some, the also have a formation for free transports (yes you have to take certain things to unlock that but still) is it fair that my 1850 army needs to face a 2300pt list.?

Eldar bikes should be prohibited from taking scatterlasers at all. Eldar already have too much access to the scatterlaser, while the Imperial equivalent, the assault cannon, languishes on terrible units.

"that my 1850 army needs to face a 2300pt list.?"

If you're Eldar, you opponent should get closer to 2500.

My opinion is not exhastive of the issues, but the ones i noticed are...

undercosted wraithknight
bladestorm shouldn't be ap2 (i think ap3 would still be crazy-good)
battlefocus should only allow them to run and shoot (in that order)
Infantry based distort weapons should be 'distortion weapons' from before, not 'D-weapons'



I'd want to see how those changes affected the army and it's synergy before i started changing anything else.


Having said that, GW are obviously going through all the codecies one by one and buffing them to the eldar/necron/SM/DA kind of level, so the other option to changing the eldar 'dex is to simply wait.

edited for spelling

Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

So 10 heavy weapons on a tough, fast chassis available as a troops choice, which can choose to move in the Assault phase allowing it to move out of cover, blitz the foe from across the board and then dive back in to cover or run away from the enemy if they should get too close is balanced?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

So 10 heavy weapons on a tough, fast chassis available as a troops choice, which can choose to move in the Assault phase allowing it to move out of cover, blitz the foe from across the board and then dive back in to cover or run away from the enemy if they should get too close is balanced?

No, no, that restriction was on top of what you said.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

So 10 heavy weapons on a tough, fast chassis available as a troops choice, which can choose to move in the Assault phase allowing it to move out of cover, blitz the foe from across the board and then dive back in to cover or run away from the enemy if they should get too close is balanced?

No, no, that restriction was on top of what you said.

Ah, in which case I agree heavily

Actually DMan, I was thinking about it, im ok now with Eldar getting a troop choice that can take bikes and carry a heavy weapon per bike.

But only if it means that my Jetbikes (DeffKoptas) can do the exact same thing and can take a heavy weapon for each one as well. So I choose to take Killkannons as my Heavy Weapon. Are you ok with that?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Actually DMan, I was thinking about it, im ok now with Eldar getting a troop choice that can take bikes and carry a heavy weapon per bike.

But only if it means that my Jetbikes (DeffKoptas) can do the exact same thing and can take a heavy weapon for each one as well. So I choose to take Killkannons as my Heavy Weapon. Are you ok with that?

I'm of the opinion that people can take whatever they want, you want to take killcannons go for it, if your codex allows you to do something then do it. There's no point in arguing what should change, GW doesn't care what we think, all they care about is what sells and jet bikes sold like hot cakes. I'm not blind to the fact that bikes are good but like one person said, we shouldn't change anything because we have no idea what dexs are coming out and what's in store for us.

The game is evolving into basically a fast over powered game (knight armys, 12 WK etc.)

So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Making bikes only fast attack is not the right thing to do unless there is some way to make them troops for Saim Hain builds. That is an iconic craftworld that has been around for as long as I remember (back to third edition). I get the frustration in dealing with swarms of scat bikes, but the solution is not just make an iconic craftworld unplayable. If you are going to move bikes to fast attack follow up with a proposal on how to field them as troops.

One thought would be make it so that for every bike squad you take as a troop, you must take a Vyper. Vypers have always been a less than popular choice and I don't think they have ever been on people's OP list. With that restriction I'm not sure there would be a need to limit the number of heavy weapons bike squads can take.

Complaining that Eldar have always been OP and therefore deserve time being bad is petulant and immature. Everyone should be on an equal footing with a codex that has useable units from start to finish. Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down. Sure nerf may be in order from time to time but the goal should be to make something playable, not reduce it to irrelevance as penance for past sins. Can I get an amen from the chaos players? (3.5)

I'm okay throwing Saim Hain under the bus at this point. Or make it a WD formation.

The Eldar have so many more past sins than CSM, though.

"Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down."

When I say that, everyone says that would break the game. As the scoop their entire list from WK stomps.

 SirDonlad wrote:
My opinion is not exhastive of the issues, but the ones i noticed are...

undercosted wraithknight
bladestorm shouldn't be ap2 (i think ap3 would still be crazy-good)
battlefocus should only allow them to run and shoot (in that order)
Infantry based distort weapons should be 'distortion weapons' from before, not 'D-weapons'



I'd want to see how those changes affected the army and it's synergy before i started changing anything else.


Having said that, GW are obviously going through all the codecies one by one and buffing them to the eldar/necron/SM/DA kind of level, so the other option to changing the eldar 'dex is to simply wait.

edited for spelling

1. Yes, the Wraithknight is undercosted. But the bigger problem is its status as a Gargantuan Creature. Either it needs to become as expensive as other superheavies/gargantuans (not including Imperial Knights), or it needs to not be a gargantuan.

2. Nope. Bladesotrm should stay as it is. Bladestorm is there to give the basic Eldar infantry gun a reason to compensate for its short range and the squad's small number of special weapons. Otherwise Eldar infantry are stuck with the second worst basic gun for their points cost, and without any analogue to orders to make it better. The main reason people complain about Bladestorm is on Shuriken Cannons coupled with Scatbikers.

3. Nope v2.0 Battle Focus balances out Eldar infantry with bikes. Nerf Battle Focus, and you nerf all Eldar units that aren't bikes or vehicles. Eldar infantry are faster to compensate for their low durability.

4. The problem is not the strength of D-weapons in the Eldar codex, but the level of access to them. I would argue for changing all Distortion weapons back to their 6th edition rules. They would still be quite powerful, but not D-Weapon nasty.

Also, @Martel732: The Imperium equivalent of the Scatter Laser is not the Assault Cannon. It is the Multilaser.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Sorry, I'm not giving GW that kind of jack. They haven't earned the right to my money in a long, long time.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
My opinion is not exhastive of the issues, but the ones i noticed are...

undercosted wraithknight
bladestorm shouldn't be ap2 (i think ap3 would still be crazy-good)
battlefocus should only allow them to run and shoot (in that order)
Infantry based distort weapons should be 'distortion weapons' from before, not 'D-weapons'



I'd want to see how those changes affected the army and it's synergy before i started changing anything else.


Having said that, GW are obviously going through all the codecies one by one and buffing them to the eldar/necron/SM/DA kind of level, so the other option to changing the eldar 'dex is to simply wait.

edited for spelling

1. Yes, the Wraithknight is undercosted. But the bigger problem is its status as a Gargantuan Creature. Either it needs to become as expensive as other superheavies/gargantuans (not including Imperial Knights), or it needs to not be a gargantuan.

2. Nope. Bladesotrm should stay as it is. Bladestorm is there to give the basic Eldar infantry gun a reason to compensate for its short range and the squad's small number of special weapons. Otherwise Eldar infantry are stuck with the second worst basic gun for their points cost, and without any analogue to orders to make it better. The main reason people complain about Bladestorm is on Shuriken Cannons coupled with Scatbikers.

3. Nope v2.0 Battle Focus balances out Eldar infantry with bikes. Nerf Battle Focus, and you nerf all Eldar units that aren't bikes or vehicles. Eldar infantry are faster to compensate for their low durability.

4. The problem is not the strength of D-weapons in the Eldar codex, but the level of access to them. I would argue for changing all Distortion weapons back to their 6th edition rules. They would still be quite powerful, but not D-Weapon nasty.

1: even making the WK a MC it is still undercosted for what it brings to the table. it needs to go up 100 pts and lose GC

2: Bladestorm is simply put, stupid. Its just another bit of extra eldar douche baggery that doesn't need to exist.

3: they are infantry, they aren't supposed to be as mobile as a bike. Or maybe let the Eldar player use it 1 time per game to make it more believable.

4: The problem is D weapons, D weapons belong in Apoc not 40k. They break the game and make it so nobody wants to take any kind of expensive model or vehicle.


If you cant figure this out i'll spell it out. Eldar have Tons of D weapons so that players feel they shouldn't take expensive units or vehicles because they get blown away to quickly, so your more inclined to take lots of Infantry or squadrons of bikes....and then the Eldar get Scat Bikes, so if you do that you are now being shot off the board with tons of Scatter laser shots.

The Eldar Codex was designed by an anal dwelling butt monkey who didn't want anyone to ever be able to beat his precious eldar.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Complaining that Eldar have always been OP and therefore deserve time being bad is petulant and immature. Everyone should be on an equal footing with a codex that has useable units from start to finish. Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down. Sure nerf may be in order from time to time but the goal should be to make something playable, not reduce it to irrelevance as penance for past sins. Can I get an amen from the chaos players? (3.5)

Or how about we nerf the big nasty four codex's rather than just letting power bloat take its toll on the game?

And whilst we are at it just nerf the hell out of Eldar. An edition at bottom place would not hurt them and would be a nice break for the rest of us.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Again, you are the reason everyone hates Eldar right now. "My codex is awesome, I beat everyone without having to use skill".

This is why so many people are jumping on the "Ban Eldar" band wagon.