Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Played my first game of 7th yesterday. Here is what I got out of it.

1. Premeasureing is some cowardly gak but I'll do it and not like it.
2. What is a psykic phase? Oh it's Fantasy. Glad I'm playing Space Fantasy.
3. Why do races without psykic powers get to try to cancel my powers? DUMMMMMBBBBBB
4. Couldn't find it but what is WS (0) for non walker vehicles? What was wrong with didn't move, moved less than 6 and more than 6?????
5. Man did they nerf power weapons. Termies only have to worry about being shot at.
6. Why does it matter if you get first blood? It could have been on a transport vehicle that was empty. I got it from killing a dread but thought that was stupid. Being in your opponents deployment zone is another stupid point. What if I'm defending my objective!
7. And to make things even more great for power gamers. No force orginization requirements. I looked at a guys list and said. "You didn't take troops." His reply, I don't have to. Well isn't that great.

With the above I didn't find the game unfun. I do not for the life of me understand the psykic phase. It is totally stupid. Traits are cool but seems to be there just to make the game random. Not as good as 4th or 5th ed but better than 6th.

Waaah things changed so its bad now.

Also half of your complaints were for things from 6ed

1. bs, what's wrong with premeasuring?
2. Psychic powers have been a part of the game for a long time but it was a disorganized mess. They took what worked and applied it somewhere else.
3. Because willpower and the randomness of the warp.
4. Incoherent rambling.
5. Terminators have far worse things to worry about than power weapons. Power weapons are good as they are however, there being one for every situation.
6. Because the game says it does. It gives more of an incentive to take care of your units instead of rushing of that 35 point rhino that you wouldn't care about.
7. The things you do in a force organization chart are FAR dirtier than anything you could ever do without a force organization requirement, bar playing an army entirely made of super-heavies (which is entirely possible with a FoC anyway).

Psychic phase actually streamlined the game imho and reduced the output of psychic powers drastically compared to 6th edition. The amount of powers cast now is on about the same level as 5th edition in some cases.

1. Yeah. The game is way more fun when you fail to guess whether or not you can try to shoot or charge a guy and then sit around looking silly. I don't feel strongly one way or the other on this change.

2. The daemons, space magic wands, and space magic swords are the clue. The psychic phase is different but not terrible. It has its ups and downs.

3. It's like a Will save in dungeons & dragons. Just because you're not a wizard doesn't mean you don't get to fight back the mental whammy coming your way. Granted, this makes less sense when they're shooting magic fire at you. These days, you have more psychic powers, but you'll succesfully cast fewer of them. The trick is to figure out how you want to "gamble" your dice to get certain effects to happen.

4. Basically, you always hit vehicles on a 3+ unless it didn't move or is immobilized. This makes skimmers easier to kill which is worse for my armies, but probably better overall as skimmers are already often hard to kill.

5. Eh. Terminators kind of stink, man. They're playable in friendly games, but they aren't exactly popular competitively. Power weapons may have been nerfed, but I actually kind of like the diversity they have now. A power sword is basically unchanged except against terminators (and artificer/phoenix lord armor). Lances, though unpopular, are actually kind of neat to use with some units. Power mauls bully things with 4+ and worse saves pretty effectively. Power axes have to worry about challenges, but they're there if you really want to cut up terminators (rather than just shoot them to death).

6. It's mostly to break up the monotony of simply counting up end of game objectives. If you don't like those (I dislike first blood myself), there are tons of other secondary/teritary objectives that are used in tournaments that you might like.

7. You're not wrong here, but power gaming isn't exactly new. If you're a tournament player, dealing with over the top BS is going to be old hat. If you're playing non-competitive games and someone is using formations/detachments to bring something cheesy, you are welcome to express a disinterest in playing against such an army.

I agree that 7th has some randomized elements that I really wish were fixed (warlord traits). The psychic phase is basically, "Okay. This warp stuff is dangerous. How much explosive chaos murder juice do I want to push through my brain to cast this power?" And then your opponent is all, "The power of the Empruh compels you!" to try and make your magic murder juice go sour. It makes sense form a human psyker perspective.

And the haters come.

1. You could never premeasure and it was cheating before.
2. Psychic powers were never disorganized? Very easy to understand and if you didn't have a way to stop the powers then you were gak out of luck. That should not have changed. How are Tau who are not Psychic allowed to do it!
3. Nope, thats what rolling 6's was about.
4. That was hitting vehicles in HTH. Very understandble.
5. Regular troops with some power weapons suck now vs Termies. Before they changed them Power weapons got to go at init and kill termies. Now a Troop choice has to have a slow weapon to hurt them, your leader issues a challenge and now I lose at inititive because my power fist will never swing. The rest of your termies use power weapons at init and kill all the rest of my troops. I can still get a few swings in from the dead guys but with regular weapons.
6. It's a game push to get people to do things to get points. To me it's a leash. Forcing me to play your games way.
7. Making people take 2 troops was for a reason. Now that reason is gone. Hurray for power gamers.

It hasn't stream lined it. You are telling me that if I'm playing Eldar and you are playing Tau that it's stream lined? LOL. So, I have 3 powers to use and I can just roll 3 leadership tests to pass a psychic test, that isn't easy? You think adding more dice to it and requireing 4+ to cast and then letting the non psychic race cancel it is streamlined.

You work for the Government don't you.

I missed most of 6th because people do not play much where I'm living now. Just found a shop close by that plays. So great for me now. Looking forward to some more 40k games.


Don't get me wrong. I'm still going to play. I just think that the Great Days of 40K are in the past. Now we are playing some bad version of Fantasy.

Oh no we can premeasure. Like in real life. In every single situation since the near end of WW1 ancient archers pre-sighting fire zones.

Oh god no.

Where are the old schoolers?

You must not know how ordance used to be fired. You know like in the old days.

You used to have to call 30 inches towards the Landraider. Oh it was 32 inches away. Sorry you missed.

The gamers are getting lazy today.

All of your threads you've recently started are rants and complaints about the state of the game. Sounds like a lot of "it's not how I wanted it anymore/remember it".

Might just be easier to accept that the game has changed since your (last I read) 2 year hiatus.

My advice is suck and learn how to deal with it if you want to play again. Most of the things you have listed are improvements to the game.

You can play a game and not like the rules.

Obviously the rules have dumb down to get more people into it. I just find it funny how people can't just take an opinion without thinking someone spit in their face.

Great you love the game. Great you don't mind paying $80 for something that was $40 in 2000. But everyone doesn't have to eat that pill. I don't buy anymore. I used the stuff I had before. I have to of course buy the crazy priced codexs now but other than that I can't see or justify these prices. I almost got a new SM single model yesterday and it was $31.00. That will get your head right.

Again, I will be playing this game but it is in no way better than it was in the past.

Back in 2008, only 7 years ago you could drop $300 and get a full 1850 list and have it be strong. You could never do that again unless you got it used.

Guess range was dumb. 'Power gamers' would have methods of figuring out the range without measuring that gave them an advantage over non-competitive players. Pre-measuring leveled the playing field in this regard and removed a lot of player disputes.

The formation stuff added a lot of flexibility and fluff to the game. You can still play with the old Force Org chart and it gives you some advantages to do so. Many competitive lists still use it. But formations allow players to field the army that has the 'cool' factor rather than being forced to take 2 Troops. For example, 3 Eldar Falcons and 3 units of Firedragons could be taken as their own army composing of 2 different formations that allows the Falcons to deep strike. That's fricken cool without being too over the top. It'll get wrecked as soon as the Falcons dump their loads.

The psychic phase is just something new, like flyers. (I'm surprised you aren't complaining about flyers). The rules for it are crappy and require house rules just to make it work. But it works. Summoning has made daemon armies really interesting and fun imo. Now chaos daemons is something to fear rather than just target dummies for the imperium.

Your other complaints are mostly just bickering over having to learn new rules. Yes first blood is a thing. Yes all vehicles have a WS to represent difficulty to hit. Yes power weapons are no longer auto-kill.

As someone who started in 7th I'm very happy I never had to deal with rules against premeasuring, it just sounds stupid to be quite frank.
However I do wish I could manually pick my spells and Warlord Traits, and it'd be nice if getting spells and casting them was more reliable but I won't complain.
How were Power Weapons before?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
As someone who started in 7th I'm very happy I never had to deal with rules against premeasuring, it just sounds stupid to be quite frank.
However I do wish I could manually pick my spells and Warlord Traits, and it'd be nice if getting spells and casting them was more reliable but I won't complain.
How were Power Weapons before?

Melee weapons didn't have AP before. They either ignored armor or they didn't. All power weapons ignored armor.

Oh.
OHHH.
I can see the difference here.
Two questions: How did Power Weapons effect Strength and such, and what did melee weapon do to vehicles?

I just wanted to see how prices have changed. I put this list together and what was needed for it.

Captain
Chaplain
Dread w/ Drop Pod
Ven Dread w/ Drop Pod
Terminators
2x 10Man Space Marines w/ Rhino
1x 10Man Jump Troops
3 Bikes
Land Raider
Pred
2x Rhino
Vind
1x Dev Squard to get the weapons from them.
Codex

$820.00

Wow is all I have to say.

Yeah, it's taken a big boost, even compared to inflation apparently.
Best to look for discount dealers.

2nd ed power weapons all had different stat lines that superceded the user's stats. And swords could parry.

I have 5 Landraiders, 10 rhinos, 40 jump troops, 100 troops, 40 special weapons troops, 6 Captains, 6 Librarians, 6 Chaplains, 60 Terminators, 6 Drop pods, 4 Preds, 2 Vinds, 2 Whirlwinds, 60 bikes with 10 of them characters, 6 Dreads, 1 Vend, 40 Scouts, 6 landspeeders and more.

I'd hate to add these all up and see how much they would cost me today.

This doesn't even count my other armies. Just Space Marines, and not even my Space wolves are added into this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
My advice is suck and learn how to deal with it if you want to play again. Most of the things you have listed are improvements to the game.

Not at all.

MJThurston wrote:
I just wanted to see how prices have changed. I put this list together and what was needed for it.

Captain
Chaplain
Dread w/ Drop Pod
Ven Dread w/ Drop Pod
Terminators
2x 10Man Space Marines w/ Rhino
1x 10Man Jump Troops
3 Bikes
Land Raider
Pred
2x Rhino
Vind
1x Dev Squard to get the weapons from them.
Codex

$820.00

Wow is all I have to say.

You left out the $85 rulebook...

MJThurston wrote:
I have 5 Landraiders, 10 rhinos, 40 jump troops, 100 troops, 40 special weapons troops, 6 Captains, 6 Librarians, 6 Chaplains, 60 Terminators, 6 Drop pods, 4 Preds, 2 Vinds, 2 Whirlwinds, 60 bikes with 10 of them characters, 6 Dreads, 1 Vend, 40 Scouts, 6 landspeeders and more.

I'd hate to add these all up and see how much they would cost me today.

This doesn't even count my other armies. Just Space Marines, and not even my Space wolves are added into this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
My advice is suck and learn how to deal with it if you want to play again. Most of the things you have listed are improvements to the game.

Not at all.

I'm pretty sure GW models have always been stupid expensive for tiny plastic (or pewter) men. You're not wrong about the increased prices being frustrating though.

Seriously though, give the new rules more of a chance before you dismiss them. They have their problems, but most of what you mention are not things that people who have a few more games under their belt dislike. With respect, it sounds like your complaints might just be growing pains from switching editions. The power weapon thing, for instance, is actually closer to what it was in 2nd edition than 5th/6th was, and it actually makes power weapons potentially better in some situations. No, you aren't going to be as good at killing terminators as you were back in the day, but again terminators are not a thing people worry about these days. You shoot them, they die. You shoot them with plasma, bladestorm weapons, etc., they die pretty fast. So in exchange for losing some of their mojo against a unit that you often didn't want to be up against anyway, power weapons now have variants that let you, for instance, gain bonus strength while you stab enemies on the charge and still ignore power armor or the one that won't be getting through a marine save but lets a guard sargeant wound fire warriors and dire avengers on a 2+ while still ignoring their armor.

Until terminators became a bigger part of the meta, you really aren't going to be missing that AP 2 too much. At least, you won't unless your local group just happens to spam terminators for some reason. In which case, congrats. Your local opponents are not bringing scary lists to your games, and you will have some flexibility regarding what you can take without worry so much about competitiveness.

I didn't have much problem with the 5th/6th edition psychic rules, but it was often said that it would be nice if all psychic powers happened "at the start of movement" or something. Which is more or less what GW did. They just put all the casting in one phase, and some people find it easier to remember. Turning casting into a sort of "minigame" is something I have mixed feelings about, but your opponent has pretty small odds of shutting down your powers unless they're fielding a very psychic heavy army. in which case, they're kind of paying for the ability to psychic duel your powers away. As for Tau shutting down powers, just say the warp is whacky, their threads were too fine to easily see on the skein, you felt a daemon brush your shoulder and freaked out, etc.

Thanks for having a comment that didn't involve, you suck for not liking it.

Nobody said you suck for not liking it, people are just addressing and countering the list of points you made. Why else would you make a public forum thread to bring up points of the game you dislike if not for people to comment on them?

If you want to have complaints with no audience, get a diary.

It's better to get smart responses then these "no it's not" and "Psychic powers are streamlined now".

It's always this way with people on dakka. Say you don't like a rule or set of rules and people act like you ran their mother over. It's a game like any other. It will have it's good points and bad.

Minopoly has very little rule changes. There is no reason for all the rule changes in just 10 years besides someone wanting to make money. I'd hope people are allowed to voice their views and not get responses like "stop playing then."

But it's good to know that you have a diary.

MJThurston wrote:
Played my first game of 7th yesterday. Here is what I got out of it.

1. Premeasureing is some cowardly gak but I'll do it and not like it.
2. What is a psykic phase? Oh it's Fantasy. Glad I'm playing Space Fantasy.
3. Why do races without psykic powers get to try to cancel my powers? DUMMMMMBBBBBB
4. Couldn't find it but what is WS (0) for non walker vehicles? What was wrong with didn't move, moved less than 6 and more than 6?????
5. Man did they nerf power weapons. Termies only have to worry about being shot at.
6. Why does it matter if you get first blood? It could have been on a transport vehicle that was empty. I got it from killing a dread but thought that was stupid. Being in your opponents deployment zone is another stupid point. What if I'm defending my objective!
7. And to make things even more great for power gamers. No force orginization requirements. I looked at a guys list and said. "You didn't take troops." His reply, I don't have to. Well isn't that great.

With the above I didn't find the game unfun. I do not for the life of me understand the psykic phase. It is totally stupid. Traits are cool but seems to be there just to make the game random. Not as good as 4th or 5th ed but better than 6th.

I agree compeltely with the psychic phase - one of the worst additions to 7th ed in my opinion.

Pre-measuring - I can't think of a single minis game that I play that does not have this and is not improved by having it.

Malifaux - yep
ACTA- yep
Dredd - yep
Age of Sigmar - yep

Even WM/H (I game i just dont; enjoy) has a pseudo version of it to exploit.

I (and many others) find that pre-measuring :

Speeds up games
Removes arguments
Makes it more tactical
Eliminates the "workarounds" / "Skills" that people use / acquire.

MJThurston wrote:
Played my first game of 7th yesterday. Here is what I got out of it.

1. Premeasureing is some cowardly gak but I'll do it and not like it.
2. What is a psykic phase? Oh it's Fantasy. Glad I'm playing Space Fantasy.
3. Why do races without psykic powers get to try to cancel my powers? DUMMMMMBBBBBB
4. Couldn't find it but what is WS (0) for non walker vehicles? What was wrong with didn't move, moved less than 6 and more than 6?????
5. Man did they nerf power weapons. Termies only have to worry about being shot at.
6. Why does it matter if you get first blood? It could have been on a transport vehicle that was empty. I got it from killing a dread but thought that was stupid. Being in your opponents deployment zone is another stupid point. What if I'm defending my objective!
7. And to make things even more great for power gamers. No force orginization requirements. I looked at a guys list and said. "You didn't take troops." His reply, I don't have to. Well isn't that great.

With the above I didn't find the game unfun. I do not for the life of me understand the psykic phase. It is totally stupid. Traits are cool but seems to be there just to make the game random. Not as good as 4th or 5th ed but better than 6th.

1) The old rule is really, really hard to make consistent (and insanely easy to cheat at). I think it's much better to have pre-measuring (note the random charge range and run ranges compensate well for this).
2) I actually really like the psychic phase, the decision on how many dice to use to try to cast a power/deny the power.
3) Because otherwise psychic powers become insanely powerful?
4) It's WS1 I believe? (don't have the rulebook in front of me).
5) Terminators are weak - they die to a hail of fire. Almost all armies now have access to large numbers of shots. Some of those dice will roll a 1. Me personally, I'd like to have seen them get a re-roll. They're supposed to be able to withstand reactor cores!
6) First blood is an annoying rule. A better rule which some tournaments have adopted is first strike (kill an enemy unit in the first turn - scoreable by both players). However, it does make you think about building your list to avoid giving away first blood.
7) That's unbound. Basically, 'play anything you like'. Which you sorta could do anyway. Just ask your opponent before the game.

Thanks for the responses.

The rule on vehicles in combat ends with immobilized non walking vehicles have ws 0.

Is that an auto hit? There is no 0 on the to hit table.

MJThurston wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

The rule on vehicles in combat ends with immobilized non walking vehicles have ws 0.

Is that an auto hit? There is no 0 on the to hit table.

There's a bit right at the start of the rulebook that deals with characteristics of 0 (where it's explaining what each stat is and does). A WS of 0 means they are hit automatically in combat. Quite why they couldn't repeat that bit in the vehicle section when talking about Immobilised vehicles, since that's about the only place it's used...

Ok cool. A guy told me I needed a.3 to hit a drop pod and I looked at him like he was crazy.