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Wolf Lord on TW with Krakenbone sword. 7x STR 5 attacks at init 5 AP 2

Whoop, then that doesn't reflect real well on your friend Selym.

Some people just can't deal with things not going their way.

well, having not played against the EC or having a SM codex I can't tell you for sure how cheesy it is, but since this guy can basically kill Ghaghkull in a duel...you think he would be more expensive.

Eh, it's unlikely that he's beat Ghazzy, especially when Ghaz will ID him with every successful wound. Tbf, boltgun marines can kill Ghazzy too, it's just unlikely.

Yeah Iniative AP2 isn't rare.

Zhadsnark is I4 S10 AP2
Sanguinary Priest with Valour's Edge is I5 S5 AP2
Dimachaeron is S6-8 I6 AP2
Succubus is S4-5 I8 AP2.

In addition to that, AP2 isn't that hard to come by and T4 is incredibly easily to deal with. It's not really cheese, just a neat CC character.

Yeah I don't really get people who have a cry when something does what its specifically designed to do. He's so niche, just shoot him with a plasmagun.

Then again, ultramarines are the best and should be invincible so in reality an ultra TAC should stomp the ECs face in melee every time Tell him his prayers to Ward went unanswered this time.

 master of ordinance wrote:
All Marine units are cheese....

I have to ask how many games you've actually played to make such a ludicrous statement.

And They Shall Know No Pasteurization?

From what it sounds he won the match in the end anyway, no? I consider complaining about the defeated's list to be very bad sportsmanship. I can't imagine what he's like when he actually loses.

Selym wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.

He might just feel he doesn't have a chance without doing so. He also sounds like he lacks either experience with the game or nerve.

In fact, there's absolutely nothing wrong with list tailoring if both players agree on the choices. Then it's just trying to balance the game player-side, like Sigmar which has no points. Not sure of your friend's motivations but if you don't like it you need to hash it out with him.

He's been playing since about 2005, and against tons of people. It's quite rare that he loses.

I have several choice words to describe my opinion on this person's behaviour, but they aren't suited for polite company.

Has he ever fought DE? If he's complaining about AP2 at Initiative, I'd hate to see him go up against any of the DE HQs and Incubi in CC. They would shred his precious termis.

 Selym wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And yeah, your mate is tailoring against you by using Sternguard for their AP3 ammo asfar as I understood.

Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.

Tbf, I understand the guy. (Sorry for taking this slightly off-topic).

I make a new list every time I go out to play. It's mostly the same 90% of the time, but it might vary a lot.
If I go to LGS, of course I take a TAC list since I can't be sure what I'm playing.

But let's say that I'm playing against a certain friend and I happen to know that he never includes flyers in his lists.
(Maybe he doesn't own one etc.)

Am I obligated to bring anti-air just so I won't be guilty of tailoring? Purposefully countering your opponent's list can be a move, but some common sense shouldn't be forbidden.
I get TAC lists, I use them, I actually like the challenge of bringing one. But in some occasions when I have agreed to play against my friend, I do some slight list tailoring and I actually assume that he does so also.
We're both fine with it since not doing so would be pretty silly.

Some people don't like it and that's fine, but the tought that list tailoring automatically makes you TFG is kind of insulting and uncomfortable.

But you know... Whatever blows your hair back

I suppose it depends on the degree.
Just leaving out stuff you know will be useless and setting it up to put up a fight is just common sense if they have obvious patterns.
Taking extremely specific Just to shut down someone else's list is where I think people are having issues.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And yeah, your mate is tailoring against you by using Sternguard for their AP3 ammo asfar as I understood.

Yeah. I tried to explain TAC lists, and why tailoring is bad, and he just responded with "but why would I take flamers if you're using tanks?". He literally does not understand these concepts.

Tbf, I understand the guy. (Sorry for taking this slightly off-topic).

I make a new list every time I go out to play. It's mostly the same 90% of the time, but it might vary a lot.
If I go to LGS, of course I take a TAC list since I can't be sure what I'm playing.

But let's say that I'm playing against a certain friend and I happen to know that he never includes flyers in his lists.
(Maybe he doesn't own one etc.)

Am I obligated to bring anti-air just so I won't be guilty of tailoring? Purposefully countering your opponent's list can be a move, but some common sense shouldn't be forbidden.
I get TAC lists, I use them, I actually like the challenge of bringing one. But in some occasions when I have agreed to play against my friend, I do some slight list tailoring and I actually assume that he does so also.
We're both fine with it since not doing so would be pretty silly.

Some people don't like it and that's fine, but the tought that list tailoring automatically makes you TFG is kind of insulting and uncomfortable.

But you know... Whatever blows your hair back

I get what you mean, but it's at the point where I can tell the result of the game as soon as we've figured out who is going first. If I get first turn, I'm typically tabled by T4, if he goes first, I'm tabled by T3. It's in part due to the fact that he's good at the game, but it's also becuase he'll never make a list until after he's certain what my army consists of.
As an example, he'll never tale meltabombs or chainfists unless I'm taking Rear Av14 or more than two Russes. He won't bother paying for Sternguard, unless I have 3+ save guys. If I'm using 2+ saves by a significant amount, his flamers are suddenly Grav-Cannons, etc.

Also likes to spend turn 1 complaining that it's unfair that IG armies are allowed to get first turn.

This guy sounds like a dick. Why are you playing him again?

If I didn't, I'd be spending 10 months out of a year not playing 40k.

Seriously, find some other group to play with.

I'd rather not play at all then with such an imbecile.

Easier said than done.

I do have a long-term plan to move to Cardiff however.

There's a large game club, a local GW, and another friend over there.

All the best for your move, in and out of the realm of tabletop gaming.

 Selym wrote:

("Doesn't pay the points for it")

This complaint from a SM player? Now I really have seen it all.

The Emperors Champion is not OP, he is actually finally where he should be. He was pretty much unusable in the previous codex, but now he has a place, now he has some strengths and is a worthy opponent to be feared.

The Black Templar can't take all that psychic shenanigans, so what do we get in place of it? The Emperors Champion is one of them.

So I say continue to use the EC and ignore the sore losers comments.

 Icculus wrote:
The Black Templar can't take all that psychic shenanigans, so what do we get in place of it? The Emperors Champion is one of them.

Also Crusader Squads seem to be better than Tactical Squads, even if it might not mean much.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The Black Templar can't take all that psychic shenanigans, so what do we get in place of it? The Emperors Champion is one of them.

Also Crusader Squads seem to be better than Tactical Squads, even if it might not mean much.

Perhaps, but also make note that if you want to use the demi-company formation, you HAVE to use tactical squads. You can not swap them out for crusader squads. So if someone really wants to run Black Templar and go with crusader squads you can't get all the free chapter tactics and free transports.
So which is more cheese? the UM player or the Black Templar player?

Actually I am just kind of excited that I heard a Black Templar unit may be considered cheese, because after last codex I thought it would never happen. But alas, it is just a sore player who blames a unit for being OP when it is doing what it is supposed to do and chopping up units in armor with the Holy Black Sword. Man I wish I could have seen that battle. gives me chills just thinking about it.

Well I wasn't talking about Gladius, just in relation to other Chapter stuff under normal circumstances. That obviously IS stupid cheese.

 Icculus wrote:

Actually I am just kind of excited that I heard a Black Templar unit may be considered cheese, because after last codex I thought it would never happen. But alas, it is just a sore player who blames a unit for being OP when it is doing what it is supposed to do and chopping up units in armor with the Holy Black Sword. Man I wish I could have seen that battle. gives me chills just thinking about it.

I can't bring you to the Templar, but I can bring the Templar to you.
It's not exemplary paintwork, but here's the offending model:

Looks different than the one on the GW site, is it a custom kitbash or an older version?

Kitbash. I think it's the helmet that's giving him consistent good runs. Never seen one of those before.

Thought so. May I ask where you got that sword? It looks absolutely massive!

It's the relic blade from the Vanguard Veteran kit. It looks smaller IRL though.

Ah I see. I guess that makes sense, given that it has the Two-Handed rule, seems appropriate for the EC to be using something like that, actually!

Just because he got #REKT doesn't mean it's cheese. Official TFG. Oh, and I don't think they call him "The Emperor's Champion" for the lols.