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No, as your allowance to take any relic at all is predicated on the one for one swap.

The fact that your weapon isnt then swapped doesnt mean you can rerun the permission for a second time.

But if you don't have to swap a weapon for either of those then wouldn't that rule out the one for one rule?

That's just the way I'm reading it anyway, but being new I could very well be wrong.

Again, your only permission to take a relic is to follow the rule. Once followed, where does it say you may follow it again?

I guess it doesn't, I was just thinking, it says you can swap one weapon for a relic but it also says underneath that those 2 don't swap a weapon so I was just under the assumption it wouldn't count as the 1 for 1 rule.

Appologies if it sounded like I was starting an argument, it wasn't my intention if it did seem that way

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, your only permission to take a relic is to follow the rule. Once followed, where does it say you may follow it again?

It is a little stickier than that; for the "(you do not need to swap a weapon for these items)" relics you are very specifically not following the rule already.

While swapping bolt pistol and chainsword for 2 weapons is clearly against the rules; not swapping either for the 2 non-weapon relics could be seen as allowable(but once you swap any weapons for a relic you cannot have any other relics as you have now technically swapped 1 weapon for more than 1 relic).

The Safest bet is 1 relic period; no matter whether you have actually swapped a weapon or not(this goes under the "break no rules" reading).

Although HIWPI is to allow my opponent to take as many of the non-swap relics as he likes(and do my best to 1-shot that expensive hero, or just ignore him outright)

Its ok, its good to ask questions on here

The rules are written such that they tell you what you CAN do. So it tells you you CAN swap one weapon for one other. It does not say you CAN do this more than once, so you cannot (shooting down the opposing doing 2 for 2 as two separate one for one is somehow OK argument) and it does not say that just because you ended up not swapping a weapon, you can do this rule again.

How many editions has this been an on-going issue?

At least since 5th, think that was the earliest relic-era I can think of?
Closely related to the and/or wording when that first appeared

It is brought up so much that it is quickly becoming my number one 'why the hell hasn't this been fixed' question....

It could be, when they hire a FAQ guy again.

I have a friend in the rules team, he deos joke about this situation a little bit

Can... can you ask him to produce a glossary of terms?
Quite a few problems would be fixed if we had some way to define what X or Y actually mean!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its ok, its good to ask questions on here

The rules are written such that they tell you what you CAN do. So it tells you you CAN swap one weapon for one other. It does not say you CAN do this more than once, so you cannot (shooting down the opposing doing 2 for 2 as two separate one for one is somehow OK argument) and it does not say that just because you ended up not swapping a weapon, you can do this rule again.

Not quite. There are no order of operations when it comes to upgrade purchases. For all intents and purposes, swapping out two Weapons, say Relic and Plasma Pistol, effectively happen at the same time.

In most cases, the end result is what matters to most people, so non- swapping Relics do not trigger the 1:1 clause.

Note that this doesn't apply for Relic lists which state one Relic per Character.

Even when we have defined terms those terms are either used without meaning the definition(using a common definition) or can have the definition applied at various points between list creation and end of game in vastly different ways(the defined term "unit" and the definition of "psyker" which is a unit that contains some special rules; unit here could mean in list creation, pregame along with warlord traits, combied units, and combat squads, or it could mean unit during game).

JinxDragon wrote:
Can... can you ask him to produce a glossary of terms?
Quite a few problems would be fixed if we had some way to define what X or Y actually mean!

Oh indeed, if they were consistent, and never used their common meaning. The method used in AoS works well, as key words are a different typeface.

I'd ask, but given the testingfriday got cut so they could produce more rules, I doubt it will gain any traction...

 Ghaz wrote:
Or better yet, from the Tactical Squad entry in Codex Space Marines:

If the squad numbers less than ten models, one Space Marine may take one item from either the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list.

So a nine man Tactical Squad can have nine Lascannons (or any combination of special and/or heavy weapons)?

Rule 1, motyak

You have 9 tacs. In the datasheet, it says one of the ten can "take one item" (note NOT plural) from the special or heavy list. Then you check the wargear list, the wargear list says "hey replace your bolter and/or bolt pistol with a special/heavy thing" (or whatever the actual wording is.) THen you realize you have both a bolter AND a bolt pistol, so your like "whoa dude, i can get a melta and a plasma!! F yea!!" but you are stopped because it says one dude can take ONE item specifically in the datasheet. And now you cry cause that would of been awesome right!?

Now back to the actual real topic.

The replace 1 weapon for 1 relic line is just so someone doesnt have to trade 2 weapons or all weapons for a relic (it assigns an addition cost to the item. Cost = points plus 1 weapon.) There is no statement saying you cant perform that 1 for 1 action multiple times. It is permitted because the datasheet says "may take items" (plural) from X,X,X lists. and the 1 for 1 rule does not revoke that permission, it just adds additional costs.


In the relic situation, the datasheet says "hey dude, you can buy donuts". The wargear list says "hey it costs you 1 dollar for 1 donut" Note now, that NOTHING specifically says "hey by they way, we are only going to sell you 1 donut, no matter how many dollars you have Richie Rich."

So, could Richie Rich choose to spend 2 of his dollars on 2 donuts? My interpretation of this is that yes he can.

Note that the other argument. That you can only trade 1 weapon for 1 relic means that you can only have ONE relic per char. Some items (the eye for example) have an exclusion to the weapon cost but NOT the 1 relic part of that equation! As such, if you cant trade a BP for lions roar and a chainsword for the Mace, then you only get 1 period. You would not get the Mace plus the eye and the shroud.


Edit: Done editing

So when told you can swap one for one, you think that really means two for two?

Interesting.

Don't call other users trolls, it is rude and thus breaking rule #1.

effreem wrote:

Note that the other argument. That you can only trade 1 weapon for 1 relic means that you can only have ONE relic per char. Some items (the eye for example) have an exclusion to the weapon cost but NOT the 1 relic part of that equation! As such, if you cant trade a BP for lions roar and a chainsword for the Mace, then you only get 1 period. You would not get the Mace plus the eye and the shroud.

Not quite. The 1:1 only applies with Weapon swaps, as that is all it addresses.

So, either there is no way to get swapless Relics, or swapless Relics are not limited by anything but points.

Good morning guys,

I just rang my local GW store to get some clarification and the shop owner said it really comes down to how good your grammar is, there were a few customers in store and he asked them as well, and the consensus was that all weapons could be swapped for relics so long as it is a one for one basis.

As an example,
A chapter master with Bolt Pistol, Chainsword and Combi-Weapon.
He can swap his Chainsword for the Mace of Redemption...one for one.
He can swap the Bolt Pistol for the Foe Smiter...one for one.
He can swap the Combi-Weapon for the Lion's Roar...one for one.

He can then take The Eye of the Unseen AND the Shroud of Heroes, as these do not require the character to replace a weapon for these two relics.
It comes down to whether you want to spend the points.

The store owner and the people in the store all said this, and said that because unlike the Skitarii codex which states that a character may only take one relic per character (unsure of actual wording as I don't own the codex) the DA codex does not have this and so may take/replace as many so long as the one for one is adhered to, so no 2 weapons for 1 relic or 1 weapon for 2 relics etc.

Swapping two for two is still one for one.

Only one of each relic may be taken per army. A model may replace one weapon with one of the following:

As worded in the codex. Only allows you to replace one weapon. Replacing two weapons is not permitted.

Only one of each relic may be taken per army. A model may replace any weapon with one of the following:

Example of wording that would permit you to exchange multiple weapons for multiple relics

Store employees have just as much authority when it comes to interpreting Rules as random people on the internet do... and make just as many mistakes.

Even Customer Service employees, hired by Game Workshop or Forge-World, have the same amount of authority to offer 'official Rulings' as random people on the internet do. Many informing us outright that they can only suggest 'House Rules,' but reassure us that the questions have been forwarded to the correct department in order to be reviewed and added to Errata. That Errata, also known as Frequently Asked Questions, is how these companies do 'official rulings' and no one on this site will accept anything less even if we where able to call and verify for ourselves.

Fair call Ghaz, makes sense, I'll agree with that

Would you agree with what I said about the other two being able to be taken as it doesn't say anything about a model taking more than one relic and those two don't require a weapon to be replaced?

Personally I feel it would be risky anyway, points wise at least, and probably wouldn't do it myself but I haven't used relics yet, so I could be wrong.

Yeah I was thinking that too JinxDragon, I just figured they would've been a bit more 'qualified' than I am, figure it couldn't hurt to get his opinion anyway as no doubt something like this would have come up in the past in store

I hope someone at GW sits down and does another FAQ soon, sounds like it's well overdue!

Edit: Sorry if I sound like a broken record too lol