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Let's face it, Warp Talons are arguably the worst unit in the CSM codex. They are over-costed for what they bring to the table and their job can be done much better by cheaper Raptors. Here are my ideas for improving them:

Warp Talons
Warp Talon Champion: WS4, BS4, S4, T4, I4, W1, A2, L9, Sv: 3+, Type: Jump Infantry (Character)
Warp Talon: WS4, BS4, S4, T4, I4, W1, A2, L8, Sv: 3+, Type: Jump Infantry
Unit Composition: 1 Warp Talon Champion & 4 Warp Talons

Wargear
Power Armour
Paired Lightning Claws
Frag Grenades

Special Rules
Daemon
Predators Of The Void
Warp Shroud
Champion Of Chaos (Champion Only)

Unit May
-Take Up To 5 More Warp Talons: 28pts Per Model

Unit May Select One Of The Following Marks Of Chaos
-Slaanesh: 15pts
-Khorne: 20pts
-Nurgle: 20pts
-Tzeentch: 30pts

Unit May Select One Of The Following Icons Of Chaos
-Despair: 5pts (Nurgle Only)
-Flame: 5pts (Tzeentch Only)
-Wrath: 15pts (Khorne Only)
-Vengeance: 25pts
-Excess: 35pts (Slaanesh Only)

Predators Of The Void
After deployment, nominate a single enemy unit. All attacks from the Warp Talons have the "Preferred Enemy" special rule applied to them when attacking the target.

Warp Shroud
On the turn the Warp Talons deep strike, all terrain within 6" of them is counted as difficult. Furthermore, all enemy shooting attacks against them on the turn they deep strike count as snap shots.

(140pts)

While I know crunch fans find it annoying, I still find it important to follow certain fluff rules. They have lightning claws, so cant use Frag grenades.

By that reasoning, any model with more than one weapon should not have access to frag grenades.

Really? Why?

If both hands are taken up by lightning claws, why does that make any other weapon different? Furthermore, there are plenty of other units that can be equipped with twin lightning claws that have access to frag grenades.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
While I know crunch fans find it annoying, I still find it important to follow certain fluff rules. They have lightning claws, so cant use Frag grenades.

Vanguard Veterans with two Lightning Claws can also use Frag Grenades.

Frag grenades aren't n issue at all with them.

Give them no scatter deep strike to allow them a more viable means of utilising their blind ability, and drop their point value to bring them in line with other 7th edition jump infantry. (So, about 6-7 points cheaper per model, do the same for the raptors too)


Done.

The only thing Warp Talons really need is a huge points drop (seriously that are almost the price of a terminator with only a 3+). Frag grenades and better deep striking rules (because the Blind rule is awful) are just gravy.

Well me and my friends came up with this rule which affects all deep-striking models in the game, and would most likely benefit warp talons tremendously. The rule is: if a unit deploys from reserve it may assault on the turn it does so. In order to do this the unit must pass an initiative test. (i.e. Roll equal to or under their initiative.)
units with unwieldy weapons; units which fired in the shooting phase or units disembarking from a transport cannot assault on the turn they arrive from deep strike.

Let them assault from deep strike. Even if it requires a test, or they suffer a penalty on the charge like disordered charge and/or require dangerous terrain tests. This will give them a tactical role that is fluffy.

Simplest improvement to Warp Talons:

Up to 2 Raptors per 5 models in the unit may be upgraded to Warp Talons for XX pts/model.

In fact, it's the simplest fix for Raptors as well.

 natpri771 wrote:
If both hands are taken up by lightning claws, why does that make any other weapon different? Furthermore, there are plenty of other units that can be equipped with twin lightning claws that have access to frag grenades.

The difference with lightning claws is that your hands are the weapons, but in other cases you are holding a weapon separately. I know, you young whipper snappers and crunch-fiends aren't used to having rules that reflected the way the fictional universe was said to work, but it's how I prefer things. I get annoyed seeing Grey Knights with their silly wristguns jsut so they can be special snowflake temrinators that get grenades,

I would suggest that Vanguard Vets should have their grenades removed if they have twin lightning claws too.

Shoulder mounted frag launcher. Now they can have frag grenades.

I always thought the turn they arrive enemy units should have to roll morale or fall back as they don't come from the sky they claw their way into reality from the warp. People can't look at the warp on a ship why can they on a planet?

paramedicpirate wrote:
Shoulder mounted frag launcher. Now they can have frag grenades.

I always thought the turn they arrive enemy units should have to roll morale or fall back as they don't come from the sky they claw their way into reality from the warp. People can't look at the warp on a ship why can they on a planet?

They can't; thus the blind rule.

The frag grenade thing did jump out at me as logistically problematic. I imagine there are a lot of accidental leg artery nicks as a result of trying to reach down to a frag dispenser on your belt, but yeah. Other units have it, and it's mechanically sound. You can always refluff it as a shoulder-mounted frag launcher or simply being semi-monstrous creatures that have learned not to trip over barricades in the several centuries they've been kicking around.

Regarding the proposed changes...

Predators of the Void: I see what you're going for here, but I'm not a huge fan. For one thing, you already have shred on all your attacks, so half the benefit of Preferred Enemy is lost. For another, I'm not sure it meshes well with the strengths of jump infantry. Being mobile and choppy is nice because you can go after exposed targets as part of fights you know you can win. That group of devastators? Jump them and chop them up. That group of tac marines limping away towards an objective? Run them down. Singling out a single enemy unit A.) makes you a bit more predictable (if you don't go after that unit, you're paying points for an ability you don't actually use), and B.) it makes me think you're trying to buff up warp talons to take on things they might have trouble against. Which is cool, but isn't the unit really meant to be more of a bully that picks on things that don't do well against it? It's fine, but I'd probably rather drop the rule and pay fewer points. ^_^;

Warp Shroud: The snap shots thing makes this sort of kind of a better version of their blind rule. Which is neat. That said, the 6" range is still problematic in that landing within 6" of something via deepstrike ups your chances of mishapping onto them. Plus, you're now very very close to all those rapid fire guns or whatever close combat squad your opponent thinks can take you in a fight. Also, depending on how you resolve that 6" "dangerous terrain thing, you potentially make the ground dangerous for yourself. And for any friends you have deepstriking nearby. Also, is it "terrain" as in actual pieces of terrain, or did you mean open ground?

I'm no chaos expert, but my personal fix list would look something like this:
Option A: Just drop the points. Blind has done wonders for my swooping hawks and Baharroth, so I'm not down on it as a mechanic against the right targets. A pair of lightning claws isn't too shabby, and you can combine them with your mobility to make for a nice bully unit. Nurgle marks make them reasonably durable, Slaanesh makes them nice marine killers, and Khorne just ups their offense. The problem is that they're pretty pricey to begin with, and they don't have much in the way of survivability. Their blind rule is very risky to use, so it's really more for the benefit of nearby allies than for the talons themselves. So yeah, simply dropping the price until they're a cost-effective bully unit might work.

Option B: No scatter on deepstrike or reduce scatter to avoid mishaps. They're clawing their way through the veil between worlds, after all. There's no reason they can't poke their heads out to make sure they aren't about to jump into a pit of lava or something. Using their blind rule would still be risky, but it would be reliable enough to make them a mid-game support unit (blinding enemies for units already on the board) that turns into a bully unit the next turn. Or you could simply stick them behind some BLOS terrain the turn they arrive so that you can send them off to pick on the enemy the following turn.

Drop 5 ppm and let them re-roll their deep strike, then they will still get passed over in favour of raptors, but would make them significantly less terrible for those who wanted to use them.

EDIT
Warp Talons
Warp Talon Champion: WS4, BS4, S4, T4, W1, I4, A2, L10, Sv: 3+, Type: Jump Infantry (Character)
Warp Talon: WS4, BS4, S4, T4, W1, I4, A2, L9, Sv: 3+, Type: Jump Infantry

Wargear
Power Armour
Paired Lightning Claws
Hellscream

Special Rules
Daemon
Predators Of The Void
Warp Shroud
Champion Of Chaos (Champion Only)

Unit May
-Take Up To 5 More Warp Talons: 28pts Per Model

Unit May Select One Of The Following Marks Of Chaos
-Slaanesh: 15pts
-Khorne: 20pts
-Nurgle: 20pts
-Tzeentch: 30pts

Unit May Select One Of The Following Icons Of Chaos
-Despair: 5pts (Nurgle Only)
-Flame: 5pts (Tzeentch Only)
-Wrath: 15pts (Khorne Only)
-Vengeance: 25pts
-Excess: 35pts (Slaanesh Only)

Hellscream
Template, S4, AP5, Concussive, Soulblaze, Type: Assault 1
A model with this weapon counts as being equipped with assault grenades

Predators Of The Void
After deployment, nominate a single enemy unit. All attacks from the Warp Talons have the "Preferred Enemy" special rule applied to them when attacking the target.

Warp Shroud
On the turn the Warp Talons deep strike, all terrain within 6" of the Warp Talons counts as difficult. Furthermore, all enemy shooting attacks against the Warp Talons on the turn they deep strike are resolved as snap shots.

(140pts)

I think they'd be fine at 1 attack base since they have that really good template weapon and get the PE bonus. Excellent fix overall though.

Just give them shrouded and all their attacks the warpflame special rule. And you have some creepy burning daemon infantry.

Why is the Hellscream so strong?

 natpri771 wrote:
By that reasoning, any model with more than one weapon should not have access to frag grenades.

Imagine Edward Scissors Hands trying to pull the pin from a grenade and throw it.

Remember that Deep Strikers form pretty little circles. This means that only a fraction of them can actually use their templates, unless they've dropped right into the middle of a unit. We therefore get the strange situation of jump assault infantry whose first volley is actually their weakest. It also encourages players to deep strike the Talons somewhere safe, so they can spread out next turn and jump towards a flammable target.

I would justify grenades as being part of the whole terrifying scream thing. Or give them immunity to overwatch, like banshees.

Yes, "frag grenades" definitely does not have to be taken literally. Flesh hooks count as frag grenades (or have in the past) and I don't see people debating whether Tyranids can pull the pin on a grenade.

In this case it could represent a warp scream stunning the enemy, the warp talons effortlessly ghosting through terrain, etc.

Warp Talons should have them. It's an embarrassment they don't.

 CrownAxe wrote:
The only thing Warp Talons really need is a huge points drop (seriously that are almost the price of a terminator with only a 3+). Frag grenades and better deep striking rules (because the Blind rule is awful) are just gravy.

I see what you're saying with the Terminator cost, but I'm also seeing that Terminators have to spend 7 pts to upgrade to dual Lightning Claws. It's 38 points for a two-claw Terminator and only 30 pts for a jump pack unit with the same. It'll certainly be simpler to get into melee combat with that extra movement distance rather than the kiting treatment Termies get. They may even be fairly costed for what they provide but it's their utility that is underwhelming. Throwing together stats and a weapon choice doesn't always make a great unit. That's the issue I see with them.

They have the stats, they have the weapon, now they need the utility. A reason to exist that justifies taking them. The cost is kind of fine (?) but I'd like to see them get more special abilities like the ones listed. Making them perfect deep strike alone would improve their usefulness as I can blind any unit that way, but making the blind itself more reliable (more Invisibility-ish?) would the best improvement. I really don't want to risk losing the whole unit because their special on-entry power failed.


Basically, Warp Talons share the same problem Thousand Sons have. Their AP3 weapons are nice and valuable in the right circumstances... but most of the time the unit is just a waste of points and viewed as not worth the price (even though they can be in the right situation).

True Story, these guys are better than vanguard vets with Lightning Claws

Kind of. Vanguard Vets are more versatile, can pack AP2, have chapter tactics and grenades. And Vanguard Vets have that disordered charge bonus.

Not that they really need more after better DS and Frag Grenades, but Marked Warp Talons should count as daemons of the god of the same mark they have. That would make all marks worthwhile.

Khorne Daemonkin already does this, so it just makes sense for other gods to get it too.

This fix also makes possessed and Mutilators worth taking.

 Delicate Swarm wrote:
Not that they really need more after better DS and Frag Grenades, but Marked Warp Talons should count as daemons of the god of the same mark they have. That would make all marks worthwhile.

Khorne Daemonkin already does this, so it just makes sense for other gods to get it too.

This fix also makes possessed and Mutilators worth taking.

That is actually the best suggestion I have ever heard.

As long as they still also count as Marked. I wouldn't want to lose my Initiative 5 Warp Talons after all.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Yes, "frag grenades" definitely does not have to be taken literally. Flesh hooks count as frag grenades (or have in the past) and I don't see people debating whether Tyranids can pull the pin on a grenade.

In this case it could represent a warp scream stunning the enemy, the warp talons effortlessly ghosting through terrain, etc.

Warp Talons should have them. It's an embarrassment they don't.

I wouldn't say no to a special rule that offered a scream with this ability...