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Hello,

What exactly is the order of operations for a combat if a challenge is issued and accepted? I wasn't able to find a clear guideline in the BRB and was a bit confused by the interpretation of my opponent last weekend:

1)Terminators(i4 claws, i1 hammers) with a Captain(i5) charges an Ork boyz unit(i2) with nob (i3) that also has an attached IC (i1 due to weapon)
2)Overwatch fire proves useless
3)Charge succeeds, terminators move into combat
4)My Captain issues a challenge

5)The Ork units character (not the IC) accepts the challenge. We swap the Ork character with one of the regular Orks already in base contact with the Captain
Now we can start hitting each other - but in what order?

6a) resolve the Challenge first and then the regular guys start clubbing each other:
Captain stabs Ork character
Ork character smacks Captain
Claw termis shred Orks+IC
Orks club termis
Ork IC+Hammer termis smash everyone but the two guys in the challenge

or

6b) everything is resolved according to initiative regardless of the challenge
Captain stabs Ork character
Claw termis shred Orks+IC
Ork character smacks Captain
Orks club termis
Ork IC+Hammer termis smash everyone but the two guys in the challenge

Which is the correct one - or are both wrong?

The rules for challenges don't say anything about changing how you resolve combat so you do it normally - in initiative order.

That's what I thought - thanks for the quick answer!

It doesn't actually matter. Everything happens at init. The challange is a "seperate fight" for all purposes except combat resolution.

What everyone here does is once charge is sucssssful, we do the challange first, using init order etc. Then the "groobers" fight it out again at init. After all done tally the total and proceed.

 DarthSpader wrote:
It doesn't actually matter. Everything happens at init. The challange is a "seperate fight" for all purposes except combat resolution.

What everyone here does is once charge is sucssssful, we do the challange first, using init order etc. Then the "groobers" fight it out again at init. After all done tally the total and proceed.

That's not correct. It's the same fight, it just changes where some wounds are allocated. Specifically, the challenger attacks have to happen at their regular initiatives since they may wound people outside of the challenge and people outside of the challenge may wound those in the challenge. All of this happens on their regular initiatives.

I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

Models not engaged in the challenge must target other enemy models if in base contact with them... So initiative is very important when resolving a challenge.

 DarthSpader wrote:
It doesn't actually matter. Everything happens at init. The challange is a "seperate fight" for all purposes except combat resolution.

What everyone here does is once charge is sucssssful, we do the challange first, using init order etc. Then the "groobers" fight it out again at init. After all done tally the total and proceed.

That's exactly how the guy I was playing against did it - but it does matter since it can change the fights outcome:
the Claw terminators (i4) could kill all other models, spill over into the challenge and kill the nob (i3) )before he gets a chance to strike back at the Captain (i5).

 Quanar wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

So what's really the point of challenged then?

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

So what's really the point of challenged then?

Only one person can hit you most of the time?

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

So what's really the point of challenged then?

Forces characters to allocate wounds to the other character first.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
So what's really the point of challenged then?

"Forging the Narrative!!"

In 6th, challenges were a good way to make a character's retinue entirely worthless, standing around like cheerleaders (there was even a morale support rule). Now at least they get to do something.
The main reason to challenge is to make sure your characters attacks hit their character - Avatar versus a unit with a PF-wielding Sarge? Bad luck on the SM, either you accept the challenge and get mullered, or refuse and don't get to swing.

As rules go, I suspect this is one where people play around it rather than play with it - keeping a 'chump' character in a unit to take challenges whilst your geared hero mulches the enemy, or taking 'hidden' powerfists (i.e. on non-character models).

It's the way a challenge should work now. The 6th edition version was another nerf to choppy armies.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

So what's really the point of challenged then?

* Both characters get to use their own stats instead of the squads majority values.
* "Forging the narrative"

nekooni wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

So what's really the point of challenged then?

* Both characters get to use their own stats instead of the squads majority values.
* "Forging the narrative"

Also:
* No Look Out Sir.
* Attacks from your character (usually stronger attacks) are not wasted on normal units.
* If refused, removing one strong model that can attack/aborb wounds from the enemy unit.

 Quanar wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
I thought in a challange is only wounded or can only wound inside the challange. Wounds don't transfer in or out?

This is a change between 6th and 7th. In 7th, wounds spill both into (if all other enemy models are slain) and out of (if a combatant is slain) a challenge, so it's important to do the attacks at the right Initiative step.

This.

If those I4 claws Shred everyone in cc with them, the I1 Hammers can go after the Ork Character in Challenge, even if the two Characters are still locked in Challenge. Or if one of the Characters in Challenge slaughters the opponent, he can put extra attacks into the rest of the cc (and be attacked by anyone in that cc who still attacks at a later Initiative). Everything should be done at Initiative, now, since options available at each Initiative number can change.