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How have Grots not come up? T2, a 12" gun, no upgrades. The only reason Orks take them is to fill up points and to sit in an Aegis.

^cultists have grots beat there

Because Grots come by the bucketload and are dirt-cheap to field. Quantity is a quality all its own.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
^cultists have grots beat there

Cant you make Cultists Fearless?

Yeah if I either take typhus or a dark Apostle or the hell cult formation lol

Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Yeah if I either take typhus or a dark Apostle or the hell cult formation lol

And thats one big Fearless tarpit, and those are nice.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

Ok, i think they deserve to be in here. Though i feel if they were a bit cheaper they would be better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

Lol if you want a tarpit il take some allied plague bearers

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

As a dedicated hth unit I present to thee:
Genestealer rules and stats :(

 Ratius wrote:
As a dedicated hth unit I present to thee:
Genestealer rules and stats :(

You will never know how much this pisses me off. I had like 30-40 genestealers, and now they are basically useless. Thus why my Nids are shelved.

Hey hey non kdk bezerkers would like a word with the genestealers

topaxygouroun i wrote:
P-y-r-o-v-o-r-e-s.

They gave them drop pods. Drop podding heavy flamers aren't bad.

Not super good, mind you. But definitely not unplayable.

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
P-y-r-o-v-o-r-e-s.

They gave them drop pods. Drop podding heavy flamers aren't bad.

Not super good, mind you. But definitely not unplayable.

My Sisters LOVE Drop Podding Heavy Flamers, but thats us.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

That just means you are overpriced. But they can, theoretically, do what they are supposed to do.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

That just means you are overpriced. But they can, theoretically, do what they are supposed to do.

yes exactly, unlike say azreal who is genuinely worthless hes a lord of war that cant cc better than anyone really, he cant shoot better than any other marine can really, and he cant take a hit at all. any current mainstream hq can bypass his 2+ armor and kill him because he only has a 4++ and a 6+++ to save him

Hellions are certainly a unit that seems to find a new way to disappoint me every time I read their entry.
- "Well, at least they have grenades... oh, wait."
- "They have Stealth, right? Oh, my mistake, they needed the Baron to give them that and he's gone now."
- "Wait... where did their second attack go? Are you telling me someone at GW thought these things were so good that they needed to lose half their attacks?"
- "Yes, I said half their attacks. We have a melee unit with 1 S4 AP5 attack each. Fear the Dark Eldar indeed."
- "Wait... why do they all have CCWs? They come with Hellglaives as standard and have no option to exchange them... and Hellglaives are two-handed. They might as well have listed 'shoe polish' in their wargear."

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mutilators would like a word with this thread.

But they're actually reasonably survivable. At least as much as terminator armor can be. And if they make it into melee they can actually kill stuff.

For 55 points? NO they are not.

That just means you are overpriced. But they can, theoretically, do what they are supposed to do.

Call a spade a spade. This is a terrible argument. Theoretically Warp Talons can do their job too. If a unit isn't mathematically good, don't defend it.

OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Look at how they interact with the rest of the codex. Not just their statline.

Fulgurites and Corpuscarii are cheap (by Mechanicus standards) ways of getting your Canticles count up. They are the choir.

They also benefit from Canticles in ways that other Mechanicus units do not.

Go down the list of Canticles and think about it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Its so sad, cuz Rough Riders look cool, but they are only good as a suicide unit who may break a vehicle. Seriously the One Use hunting lance is just dumb.

No lol, the cheap way to get your canticles up is fething Convocation aka "so you want to compete with the big boys, here you have to use this formation."

If you're trying to play Cult Mech and not using convo, you can basically deal with being Harlequin/Tempestus tier. Because it was designed the way the codex should have been designed (no not the free freaking upgrades) as one codex, called Adeptus Mechanicus, with Canticles and no Doctrina Imperatives. But no, GW would rather fleece an extra buck than give it's players something functional.

And if you really want to play CM? There's nothing these sad sacks do that more servitors don't do better.

Their lore vs rules is even hilarious. The ranged ones are supposed to "destroy enemy infantry and machines alike" so are they strong enough to hurt tanks? Haywire maybe? No, they're just more expensive than space marines with a 5++ and a bolter that doesn't shoot 24"

 Grimmor wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
OP, you are missing one thing: Rough Riders.

By and large the worst unit in the game, costing over twice the cost of a Guardsman with the same stats, only a laspistol as a weapon and a one use hunting lance CCW. And no, they do not have instant death or outflank or infiltrate or scout or deepstrike or any other rule which might help them get close.

Its so sad, cuz Rough Riders look cool, but they are only good as a suicide unit who may break a vehicle. Seriously the One Use hunting lance is just dumb.

Well Vraks Rough Riders are actually okay.

the_scotsman wrote:
No lol, the cheap way to get your canticles up is fething Convocation aka "so you want to compete with the big boys, here you have to use this formation."

If you're trying to play Cult Mech and not using convo, you can basically deal with being Harlequin/Tempestus tier. Because it was designed the way the codex should have been designed (no not the free freaking upgrades) as one codex, called Adeptus Mechanicus, with Canticles and no Doctrina Imperatives. But no, GW would rather fleece an extra buck than give it's players something functional.

And if you really want to play CM? There's nothing these sad sacks do that more servitors don't do better.

Their lore vs rules is even hilarious. The ranged ones are supposed to "destroy enemy infantry and machines alike" so are they strong enough to hurt tanks? Haywire maybe? No, they're just more expensive than space marines with a 5++ and a bolter that doesn't shoot 24"

No, that is not a cheap way to get canticles up because the War Convocation requires an Imperial Knight among other things, which is not cheap and barely benefits from Canticles.

Do the math on electroshock gauntlets vs. bolters.

This is inane. Read the damn codex and think instead of loling. which doe snot make you look clever but childish.

People who say fulgurites are the worst unit have probably never thought about adding in a Grey Knights Librarian and never have taken them in squads of 20. They must be in squads of 20, that is very important.
Loads of high strength, ID on 6, IWND, Fearless and once they wipe out a unit (which is pretty likely given Hammerhand) they become near unkillable.
Fulgurites are by no means a bad unit, and if used right they can be extremely powerful.

I'm going to give an example here of not thinking.

If you just looked at the statline for Electroshock Gauntlets and saw S4 12" range 2 RoF, you might think that they were 12" bolters. But then if you looked at their special rules and how they interact with the special rules of the platform, you would notice something else, if you thought about it.

EGs are Assault 2 Twin-Linked Shock Assault weapons. That means that, each time a Corpuscarii shoots, it statistically gets an average of 2.67 hits (as opposed to a bolter marine's 1.33 within RF range). They get double the hits.

Moreover, since they are Assault, the Corpuscarii can now charge. When they do, their Voltagheist Field (see, more special rules) lets them hit at initiative through cover AND gives them a S4 Hammer of Wrath attack.

THEN, because they have Zealot, their close combat attacks (of which they get 3 on the charge) count as Twin-Linked AGAIN effectively, AND they retain Shock, meaning that against something with WS4 each charging Corpuscarii will hit an average of 3.7 times!!!! (as opposed to a charging MEQ's average of 1).

With the proper Canticle at the proper level, they will do this at Strength 7. That's 3.7 S7 hits, per Corpuscarii. Or alternatively they can get 3 extra S4 attacks that automatically hit, per Corpuscarii.

They are not 12" bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the immense number of hits that Cospuscarii generate means that no way on Earth do you want to give them Haywire! A single Corpuscarii would do 2.22 Hull Points!

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

Celestians really aren't as bad as hellions. If nothing else, at least they can still bring 2 special weapons per 5.

In contrast, a squad of 20 Hellions can take exactly as many special weapons as a squad of 5 - none whatsoever. Also, that extra attack is still more than the Hellions get.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't think anything beats out the eight ounces of cold diarrhea in a six ounce Dixie cup that is Hellions.

Celestians.

They're Battle Sisters, but with a worse Act of Faith, an extra (WS3 S3 I3) attack, and costing 3 points more per model.

Wait, am I missing something here? Don't celestians have jump packs? Usually you can expect to pay a wee bit more per model for double the movement.

And looking at the rules again, I can see how Corpuscarii might be usable but I'm standing by the fulgurites. I cannot see a way that a T3 5++ FNP unit could ever get across the table, and how they could ever live long enough to get that 3++. Yes, you get one turn of stealth/shroud. Yes, you could turn off the shooting power of the rest of your army to give them a half decent round of melee (if they don't get fethed up by some I3+ opponent)

If they had a readily available OT transport that wasn't 250 points? Totally, they'd be around the level of Ork Nobz-a usable glass cannon. But they don't, and every argument for them starts with the assumption that they A) get to melee and B) survive their opponents first swing (unless they're fighting tau).