Are fulgurite Electropriests the new worst unit in the game?

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**Reinokarite**

ionusx wrote:
no azreal is the worst hes a lord of war worse than most marine captains -.-

Azrael kicks Kharn's ass three times out of four. In hand to hand combat no less. He definetly not LoW material but definatly not weaker then nameless captains.

**Hollowman**

vipoid wrote:
TheNewBlood wrote:

That's 1 out of 6 that doesn't help. No, it's 2/3. 5/6 if you want them to fulfil an offensive role. I'm not saying that Wyches are an amazing unit; they aren't killy enough with just basic CCWs, and they have no durability outside of the assault phase. But there are much worse units in the game. Like Fulgurite Electropriests. And I'm disagreeing. Electropriests are awful, but wyches are worse. Though I suspect we won't be agreeing on that anytime soon.

The problem with Wyches is not that they don't do enough damage in cc - they did perfectly fine in previous editions with low strength. Their job is pinning units in close combat and slowly stripping off wounds, not slaughtering units on the charge and then getting caught in the open next shooting phase. All the drug rolls except +1 initiative and arguably +1 leadership help them with this.

What makes them not work is changes to over watch, more firepower on the field and less reliable charge ranges.

**vipoid**

Hollowman wrote:

The problem with Wyches is not that they don't do enough damage in cc - they did perfectly fine in previous editions with low strength.

Um, no they didn't.

Look at how they were used prior to this book - 5 of them in a venom/raider, all with haywire grenades. Their purpose wasn't to kill or tarpit units, it was to kill vehicles.

In 7th, they lost the ability to take haywire grenades - i.e. their only useful role - and gained no melee ability whatsoever to compensate.

Hollowman wrote:

What makes them not work is changes to over watch, more firepower on the field and less reliable charge ranges.

No, it's that they suck at their job.
- They lost the ability to take unit-wide haywire grenades
- Their offence in melee is pathetic
- Their melee weapons are garbage
- They can't take special weapons like meltas or flamers to give them alternate uses
- They don't get a save outside of combat
- Even in combat, they're still T3 with only a 4++ to protect them, and then you're relying on them not fleeing when they inevitably lose
- They're more expensive than Warriors

In terms of a tarpit, there are two issues with that - firstly, they're extremely limited in which units they can effectively tarpit. You need something with very few attacks (which also need to be S10 or Instant Death - otherwise you're better off using Grotesques, as they can actually fight back), so Wraiths, TWC etc. are all out because they'll just munch the Wyches. Then, you're still relying on them not fleeing when they lose combat (otherwise you've literally done nothing but feed the enemy a troop choice). Second, DE are probably one of the armies least in need of tarpits to begin with. DE are mobile, and don't really do anything resembling a gunline (or anything that would desperately require tarpit units). What they need is units with bite - stuff that can compete with grav and such. The old Wyches could offer very reliable anti-tank. The new wyches can offer nothing whatsoever.

**Hollowman**

wych tank hunters were primarily a thing after 6th hit, or as a cheap assist to a shooty list. In 5th, and especially when the DE codex dropped, Wyches were one of the more effective and popular units in the game, rushing forward in raiders and hitting early and hard. DE badly need tar pit units, not to hold up combat, but to hold up SHOOTING and wyches filled that role admirably. You'd have been hard pressed to find a DE army without a unit of ten.

Wyches have barely changed at all, but the rules have changed around them, and since 6th they have done nothing but slowly diminish into nothingness. The era of haywire Dependant whyches was already long past the era of good wyches.

**vipoid**

Even in 5th, I very rarely saw wyches being used - it was always Warriors or Wracks.

Unless you're referring to their use prior to the 5th edition codex?

I haven't seen the 3rd edition book used, but I can certainly see wyches used when a 5-man squad could take 2 blasters at 5pts each.

**Hollowman**

It's obviously meta dependent, but I saw a lot of wyches. They could tie up a shooty blob (guardians, imperial guard, tacticals) and totally remove their shooting for a few 2-3 turns for fairly cheap, and they could do the same to low attack assault units or backfield heavy guns. They were a good deal and did more to effect the board than kabalites - wracks were nice but I mostly saw them as objective holders. It's really over watch that killed that use - charging them into a shooty unit to hold up their fire is a lot less effective with over watch.

-D

**nosferatu1001**

vipoid wrote:
Even in 5th, I very rarely saw wyches being used - it was always Warriors or Wracks.

Unless you're referring to their use prior to the 5th edition codex?

I haven't seen the 3rd edition book used, but I can certainly see wyches used when a 5-man squad could take 2 blasters at 5pts each.

You saw wytches all the time in 3rd; combat drugs could randomly give them a 12" move, and the old 4th edition rules for combat (if you cleared yoru 2" zone, noone could attack back at you) meant they could often first turn charge especially when combined with the raider pivot trick.Of course then ravagers with triple dissie were nasty as all hell...

**vipoid**

Good point.

Didn't the old disintegrators used to function as plasma cannons?

**Furyou Miko**

Something like that... but right now, Wyches only outperform Battle Sisters by 0.02 of a wound in close combat, and that's assuming that the Sisters don't have a Priest.

**reevesshady**

I know Hellions get a lot of grief from players, but I've had great success with them. I'm still a new player, so I may become jaded over time about these guys. My biggest success was rolling the +1S combat drug, they lasted to turn 4 (furious charge) giving them S6 on the charge, along with their 2 poison shots a piece..

Luck really comes into it, but that is not bad at all. They are better shooters than warriors at 2 shots in 18in range as opposed to 12, and better in CC than wyches with S4(5/6) at AP5 and HoW.

I wish they would have gotten AP4 or 3 with those glaives, or another type of special rule, but I will continue to use my Hellions.

My Wyches on the other hand haven't done much yet, but I will keep trying them out!

**vipoid**

Do bear in mind that they only get HoW if they didn't use their skyboards in the movement phase.

**ionusx**

Reinokarite wrote:
ionusx wrote:
no azreal is the worst hes a lord of war worse than most marine captains -.-

Azrael kicks Kharn's ass three times out of four. In hand to hand combat no less. He definetly not LoW material but definatly not weaker then nameless captains.

yes but kharn mixes with all kinds of units he literally has a list a mile and a half long, to give him his greatest potential you can only pair azreal with veterans really.. ya know those guys you put in a pod with combi's only to get blown off the board and rendered worthless after they land. i mean yea you can assault from a raider with them but thats a bit much i feel when you can have deathwing knights do that who dont need azreal's buffs.

tacticals, assaults, scouts, devestators can all use his buffs sure but they dont really need them, thats a lot of points your spending to give an invul to some devestators.

azreal would be awesome if we had a unit to give the invul that had value to give it to like honor guard, blobsman, death company all the units that azreal would work well with exist in other books and you shouldnt have a lord of war in one army so he can be used in another that defeats the purpose of him being in that book taking up an entire page of text. id also like to add that you CANT take azreal without a CAD or a lions blade meaning you cant include him in any of the options most people take when wanting to include a dark angels detachment in their army anyway (allied detachment, ravenwing strikeforce, dw strike force). azreal is coated in anti CODEX synergy he works against the entire codex.

it is of my opinion that azreals page was written at the very end of production of the book when they had no time to go over it or look at his rules and work it

**AncientSkarbrand**

Nobody seems to understand how poor of a choice for his points the changeling really is. I sound like a broken record, but seriously... Look at his rules.

He's so terrible it's impressive.

To the nurgling guy, at least you get 12 shrouded wounds to sit on an objective for 45 points that can be a cc threat if someone pokes an mc too close and you have the locus of virulence invested in the unit.. 4 attacks each actually does something against some units, especially on the charge with 9 of them for 135. The changeling does... What again?

If the purpose of this thread is to discuss the worst army list entry conpared to everything, i seriously think the changeling is an extremely serious contender for that position. He's certainly worse than fulgurite electropriests.

Im not trying to spam the thread. Just feel as though no one is recognizing how bad of a choice the changeling is. Compared to someone like azrael, he looks like a pile of squig feces.

**scottmmmm**

I really dislike their models too. I like the aesthetics of everything else in the Cult Mechanicum book, but the priests really let the side down in my view.

It's kind of bad in a codex that's got what, 4 models?

**Orock**

I've got a broken arm, pity me! Ha loser, mine was completely cut off, pity me! You guys got off easy they cut my head off!

That's this thread summed up. All your units suck, don't use them and move on. When they don't sell GW will flip their rules to make them sell, like they did with the necrons bikes. Then you can start over as your favorite unit that coincidentally everyone and their grandma owns three of can eat the nerf bat just in time for GW's next release with three models for 75 bucks with suspiciously overpowered ruleset.

Jell with the way the priests flopped I would be shocked if in the next year they don't come out with some total BS formation that gives them all 2+ invun just to clear them out of the warehouse.

**DoomShakaLaka**

Orock wrote:
I've got a broken arm, pity me! Ha loser, mine was completely cut off, pity me! You guys got off easy they cut my head off!

That's this thread summed up. All your units suck, don't use them and move on. When they don't sell GW will flip their rules to make them sell, like they did with the necrons bikes. Then you can start over as your favorite unit that coincidentally everyone and their grandma owns three of can eat the nerf bat just in time for GW's next release with three models for 75 bucks with suspiciously overpowered ruleset.

Jell with the way the priests flopped I would be shocked if in the next year they don't come out with some total BS formation that gives them all 2+ invun just to clear them out of the warehouse.

'Tis just a flesh wound. Now come over here and Ill bite your ankles off!

**Alcibiades**

Just as a general comment, I'll just say that AdMech, much more than IG with Orders or Skitarii with DIs, is designed around the Canticles. You can see this if you go through the Canticle list and the unit list -- it's quite cleverly done, in that the Canticles are built so that they only really benefit one or two kinds of units, so you have to make a choice. For instance, the Stubborn/Fearless one is useful pretty much only with servitors (everthing elsse has Fearless or Zealot); Electrocutioner is useful pretty much only with Electro Priests (everything else is prohibitively expensive to buy in sufficient numbers); the cover save one is of limited use for anything except servitors since they have Inv saves anyway.

It's quite well done IMO.

Anyway, the point here is that

a) the units cannot be evaluated except in the context of the fact that they benefit from Canticles (as well as increase their effectiveness by virtue of merely existing)

and

b) as pointed out on the first page, the Canticles are factored into the cost of the unit. When you buy an EP, you are not just paying for his statline -- you are paying for, for instance, the 80 S4 I10 hits (not attacks, hits) that a full squad of EPs can generate on the charge.