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Dr. Nick: Hi, everybody!

Recently on B&C there were some musings about what a Khornate psyker would be like.

My take on the unit is an anti-psyker, because the blood god frowns on all filthy witches.

After some feedback on Heresy-Online and B&C, here is what I've got so far:



A Khornate Spellbreaker may be taken as an HQ choice in a Khorne Daemonkin army, and may fill the HQ requirement of any formation found in Codex: Khorne Daemonkin.

Khornate Spellbreaker: 135 points
WS5 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W2 A3 Ld9 Sv3+

Wargear:
Power Armor
Bolt Pistol
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Mark of Khorne
Bloodrune Collar
Witcheater Blade

Bloodrune Collar: +2 to Deny the Witch Rolls, +1 warp charge for Deny the Witch attempts made by the Spellbreaker
Witcheater Blade: Range - S: User AP: 3 Type: Melee, Rending, Witcheater
Witcheater: Unsaved wounds dealt to an enemy with the Psyker special rule cause Instant Death.

Special Rules:
Independent Character (Infantry)
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Fearless
Preferred Enemy (Psykers)
Rancorous Aura
"Try it, witch"

Rancorous Aura: The Khornate Spellbreaker may attempt to Deny the Witch with full modification from the Bloodrune Collar (and Adamantium Will, if generated from the Blood Tithe table or the Brazen Rune artefact) for any and all enemy psychic powers manifested within 18". In addition, the Spellbreaker's controlling player receives double the d6 roll for warp charges generated during the opponent's psychic phase. A Spellbreaker may never join a unit that contains a model with the Psyker Special Rule.

"Try it, witch": Any psychic power successfully cast on the Spellbreaker or his unit automatically causes the psyker who manifested the power to immediately roll on the Perils of the Warp table, re-rolling all Warp Surge results. Friendly psykers who attempt to manifest powers within 18" of the Spellbreaker must roll a 5+ instead of 4+ to utilize warp charges.

Options:
May take items from the Special Issue Wargear, Gifts of Khorne, Melee Weapons, and/or Artefacts of Slaughter lists.
The Khornate Spellbreaker may replace his Power Armor, grenades, and Bolt Pistol with Terminator Armor and a Combi-bolter for 25 points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In his original incarnation, he was 15 points cheaper and came with the Adamantium Will special rule. I conceded that, since Adamantium Will is a buff from the Blood Tithe table, it would be more in-line with the philosophy of the codex to get the buff from the table rather than have it by default. This at least forces a trade-off (unless part of a Slaughtercult) where witch denying abilities are taken instead of more attacks, FNP, and so on.

Overall the criticism is that he's too powerful.

I disagree for the following reasons:

1.) Culexus Assassin. The reason I created the Spellbreaker is because we "need" an anti-psyker. IMO, the Culexus is a more potent anti-psyker, but he can't join units, which is a very significant drawback for an independent character.

2.) 2 Wounds, 3 on a juggernaut. T4. T5 on a bike or juggernaut. He is not very hard to kill. In a challenge, the only thing he really poses a threat to is a psyker or weakling unit champions. Against Eldar psykers, he is likely to die first due to lower initiative. Against Grey Knight/Space Marine/CSM psykers, he is likely to die at the same time. Against Daemons psykers, he may kill them first.

3.) He is a hard counter to psykers, even those in the same army. He will never be buffed, nor will a unit he's attached to. No Invisibility shenanigans lest the caster suffer perils automatically (and manifest charges on 5+ instead of 4+).

4.) Against armies with 1 or 2 psykers, he will utterly shut them down. As is his purpose. Against armies like Daemons and Grey Knights, where there will likely be 10+ warp charges in the opponent's pool before the d6 is rolled, perhaps 1 or 2 powers will be shut down with proper positioning.

5.) Points-wise, he will undoubtedly become more expensive once an invuln save, juggernaut, and/or the Brazen Rune are purchased as upgrades. Without those, he is cheaper but far easier to kill.

Please share your feelings on the unit! As with other homebrew attempts, I tend to make things rather powerful - which is desirable - but their points cost should be appropriate and there should be weaknesses or drawbacks to balance the unit out. I feel like I've done so here. If you agree or disagree, let me know!

I like man, its good for Khorne to get anti-psyker tech thats actually worth something.

As for balance etc, can't comment on that too much cuz

I'm a little iffy on this guy.

For 125 points, you basically tell your opponent he doesn't get to have fun with his ~85 points of librarian, his 100+ points of farseer, or his 2,000 points of Tzeentch daemons. Plus, you're getting a not-terrible character with what is basically an always-on force sword that is also rending. And you have the option to put him in terminator armor if you want, which isn't a huge deal, but it's handy.

As you say, he'll totally shut down 1 or 2 psykers, which means your opponent doesn't get to enjoy his IC, but you get to enjoy yours.

Against psyker heavy armies, he's more reasonable. Your opponent will still get powers off, though"Try it Witch" means you're giving people more of a reason to take buffs when they can over maledictions and witchfires (which are generally less impressive). Discouraging friendly psykers is appropriate, but not really a huge penalty. If you take this guy as one of your HQs, chances are good that you don't take a psyker in that army.

Am I correct in understanding that he makes you generate twice the number of warp charges on your opponent's turn and then also lets you roll 2 additional dice on each Deny the Witch Roll? So if your opponent rolls a 6 on the WC generated and you only roll one "real" die each time you try to deny, you're potentially looking at 18 dice that deny on a 4+ after your opponent only casts on a 5+, right? That's pretty rough.

Facing him with a psyker-centric army (like GK or Tzeentch or Ulthwe) is sort of like facing a character that makes most of your army have -1 BS and grants his own army 4+ FNP with a shooty army. To be fair, I'm biased and not familiar with the anti-psyker assassin rules. I'm just not a fan of units that revolve around denying your opponent the chance to use their cool rules/units.

He doesn't seem far off from where he should be, but it feels like he has a *lot* of potent anti-psyker power. Which is one thing for an assassin that's prone to dying the turn he shows up due to his lack of a unit to hang out with. It's another thing for a model that can hang out with terminators inside a land raider or inside a big blob of fearless cultists.

Just sort of feels like a "feelbad" unit as he is right now. Your opponent doesn't get to interact with him in an interesting way that makes the game more fun. He pretty much just tells your opponent he gets to have a less fun game as punishment for bringing psykers, and a smart Khorne player will put him in a reasonably durable unit to make sure he isn't removed right away..Compare to the Culexus that creates an, "Oh crud! I need to kill him before he gets a chance to pull off his shenanigans!" type situation.

I'd like to look at some of your defenses of his current rules/pricing. Not in a dickish way. I just disagree with some of your points and wish to point them out for the sake of analyzing your cool unit.

1.) Agreed about Khorne needing some nice anti-psychic options, but see my above points regarding the Culexus.

2.) Eldar psykers will probably not be charging anything khornate. That means they have, at most, 2 attacks. That means they hit once, probably wound, and then he has a 2/3rds chance to ignore that wound with his power armor (which might be terminator armor instead).

3.) It could be argued that hard counters to psykers just aren't a lot of fun. See above points about punishing your opponent for liking Tzeentch or librarians.

4.) See point 3.

5.) I'm not sure you really need to give this guy any upgrades. He's already got the always-on force sword that can potentially cut through terminator armor, wound a wraith knight, and maybe even scratch up vehicle armor to boot. He's fearless, so he can hide inside a cultist or chaos marine blob.

I like the concept, and each of the special rules is individually cool. I think he anti-psyker effectiveness and range of influence combine to make him a bit too punishing for some armies.

I really appreciate your analysis, Wyldhunt. You make some very good points.

The Culexus essentially shuts down all powers automatically, albeit with a bubble half the size and no option to join a unit.

I think, before addressing anything else, if he's supposed to be my equivalent to the Culexus I'll make his points closer to 140. More to come, I have some thinking to do...

*edit*

Some changes:

1) Raised point cost to 135
2) Reduced range of Rancorous Aura to 18"
3) Reduced range of "Try it, witch" to 18"
4) Changed Witcheater effect to only cause Instant Death to psykers on a 5+ to wound
6) Reduced the amount of extra warp charges from the Bloodrune Collar from +2 to +1.

Khornation Negation: Enemy psychers require a 5+ to manifest powers of the enemy is 24".

 Filch wrote:
Khornation Negation: Enemy psychers require a 5+ to manifest powers of the enemy is 24".

Khornation Negation? What in tarnation? Start the celebration!

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I really appreciate your analysis, Wyldhunt. You make some very good points.

The Culexus essentially shuts down all powers automatically, albeit with a bubble half the size and no option to join a unit.

I think, before addressing anything else, if he's supposed to be my equivalent to the Culexus I'll make his points closer to 140. More to come, I have some thinking to do...

*edit*

Some changes:

1) Raised point cost to 135
2) Reduced range of Rancorous Aura to 18"
3) Reduced range of "Try it, witch" to 18"
4) Changed Witcheater effect to only cause Instant Death to psykers on a 5+ to wound
6) Reduced the amount of extra warp charges from the Bloodrune Collar from +2 to +1.

That feels like a move in the right direction. 18" is still quite the range, but it's much more localized, and you'll be able to bring guns to bear against his unit by the time he's in range with his aura.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I really appreciate your analysis, Wyldhunt. You make some very good points.

The Culexus essentially shuts down all powers automatically, albeit with a bubble half the size and no option to join a unit.

I think, before addressing anything else, if he's supposed to be my equivalent to the Culexus I'll make his points closer to 140. More to come, I have some thinking to do...

*edit*

Some changes:

1) Raised point cost to 135
2) Reduced range of Rancorous Aura to 18"
3) Reduced range of "Try it, witch" to 18"
4) Changed Witcheater effect to only cause Instant Death to psykers on a 5+ to wound
6) Reduced the amount of extra warp charges from the Bloodrune Collar from +2 to +1.

That feels like a move in the right direction. 18" is still quite the range, but it's much more localized, and you'll be able to bring guns to bear against his unit by the time he's in range with his aura.

And let's hope they have more than their 1 or 2 psykers to fight off the Khornate forces, too.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm a little iffy on this guy.

For 125 points, you basically tell your opponent he doesn't get to have fun with his ~85 points of librarian, his 100+ points of farseer, or his 2,000 points of Tzeentch daemons.

Just like you don't get any fun with your 2000pts army because of the bs Psy powers that that 85pts can throw at you.

Short answer from a Khornate player to a Psyker player is "go F*** you and your powers", if it was only me, Mark of Khorne would give all models a 2+ DtW in a 30" radius, and auto Perils.

AS it is now it nearly impossible to counter Psy powers if you don't have yourself a heavy Psy oriented army, you can just sit there and watch the guy throw powers left and right that makes his key units unkillable, or litterally making yours weaker when you all ready don't need it.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm a little iffy on this guy.

For 125 points, you basically tell your opponent he doesn't get to have fun with his ~85 points of librarian, his 100+ points of farseer, or his 2,000 points of Tzeentch daemons.

Just like you don't get any fun with your 2000pts army because of the bs Psy powers that that 85pts can throw at you.

Short answer from a Khornate player to a Psyker player is "go F*** you and your powers", if it was only me, Mark of Khorne would give all models a 2+ DtW in a 30" radius, and auto Perils.

AS it is now it nearly impossible to counter Psy powers if you don't have yourself a heavy Psy oriented army, you can just sit there and watch the guy throw powers left and right that makes his key units unkillable, or litterally making yours weaker when you all ready don't need it.

I'd say your points hold up if we're talking about facing a psyker heavy army, but not a 1 or 2 psyker army. That list with a single farseer or librarian isn't going to have many more dice than you, and you'll have pretty okay odds of shutting down a single power in a given psychic phase. Considering that psyker also has pretty good odds of failing to cast at least one power, that doesn't seem like too daunting a threat. If you're able to shut down psychic spells more reliably than your opponent can cast them, you're basically saying you don't want your opponent's psykers to work reliably at all. Which is fine in a limited capacity if you're bringing something like the spellbreaker here.

I always find it sort of bizarre when people complain about not being able to shut down psychic powers well enough considering that psychic powers were far more reliable to cast and much harder to deny one edition ago. In 5th you really couldn't deny powers at all outside of specific effects like psychic hoods. People have never been able to shut down psychic powers as effectively as psykers can cast them, at least not since I've been playing, and they shouldn't. That librarian is paying a lot of extra points to have a chance at casting his powers. Granted, most powers weren't as nasty back then, but that's more of a problem with specifically poorly designed powers like Invisibility than with the psychic system as a whole.

And then there's the consideration that heavily psychic armies (GK and Tzeentch for instance) pay to be that psychic. Sure, they have more dice than you. And they should. Tzeentch's whole thing is being psychic. Pink Horrors and heralds are kind of craptastic at everything else.

For the sake of understanding your position Slayer, what kind of psychic presence is giving you trouble? Is it the army with a single librarian or farseer? Is it the army that's full to the gills with psykers? The former is paying quite a few points for its powers, and those powers are easier to fail to cast than ever before. With the randomly generated number of dice, you'll have non-existent (but not great) odds of shutting down a power, and he'll have pretty good odds of failing to cast at least one power if he's casting more than one. And the more likely he makes it that he successfully casts, the more likely he is to take a wound from perils. The latter army (the one full of psykers) is theoretically paying quite a bit for those powers. That's their thing. It's what they're good at. If they're casting lots of powers, you'll still have a chance to shut one down with your denial, but you really shouldn't be cancelling out the army's whole shtick any more than they should be cancelling out your ability to ignore power armor saves with a blood letter's sword.

I mean, Khorne is also not great at shooting, but surely you don't think IG should have their guns denied on a 2+, right? Is it just "problem powers" like invisibility that are giving you trouble?

Also, I'm pretty sure an 85 point psyker is going to have a pretty hard time cancelling out a 2,000 point army. : P

I can't speak for Slayer, but if being a psychic powerhouse is what x, y, or z is good at, denying those fools is what the Spellbreaker is good at. Much like the Culexus Assassin.

Should nothing have a counter, or should only psychic powers be the exception?

What if you changed it so that for every mastery level your opponent has you get another dice to deny to a max of 10+ the d6?

Make him available for CSM too.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:What if you changed it so that for every mastery level your opponent has you get another dice to deny to a max of 10+ the d6?

I like that idea, I think the denial ability scaling with the enemy's warp charges could be a balancing factor to compensate for 1 or 2 psykers vs. an army of them.

Ashiraya wrote:Make him available for CSM too.

TBH I created this guy so Daemonkin would at least have a HQ unique to the faction. CSM have plenty as it is.

But I mean, Daemonkin is only Khorne CSM + Khorne Daemons + formations anyway.

Why shouldn't this guy be able to accompany Kharn's lads into battle?

when deny the witch meant immunity to any psychic shooting or anything.

It makes no difference in the end. If anyone actually wants to use these rules feel free to use them with CSM.

I would like to see this not as a character you buy but as a result of an action.

What I mean is pay a set amount of points per squad and on a successful DTW replace a character with this model. Model is equipped exactly as before however all their weapons have the witchbane quality (no invul saves may be taken by models with the psyker type that are wounded by this weapon)

If instead of a character with profile you make it more like a cult or lodge within Khorne's ranks, it not only makes it more fluffy, but much harder to counter.

Spellbreaker Lodge members:for 15 points upgrade a squad to be lodge members. Lodge members enjoy a +1 to DTW and a further +1 for every 2 units within 6" of the original unit. Furthermore upon a successful DTW Replace a character with the Spellbreaker. This character is armed and armoured exactly as before and it's weapons gain the Witchbane quality. The character type changes to independent character and must leave the squad. The character gains preferred enemy Psykers, Zealot, and fleet and must move toward an enemy psyker (does not need to be the closest one). The unit loses the benefit of being lodge members after this turn, however gain the zealot trait due to one being chosen by Khorne.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I can't speak for Slayer, but if being a psychic powerhouse is what x, y, or z is good at, denying those fools is what the Spellbreaker is good at. Much like the Culexus Assassin.

Should nothing have a counter, or should only psychic powers be the exception?

I lean towards "nothing should have a counter." With caveats. To clarify, nothing should have a counter that costs a little over 100 points and potentially shuts down the entire enemy army. In the same way that I was opposed to the initial draft of the spellbreaker, I would be opposed to a similarly priced model that lowered enemy BS in a 24" bubble and gave all friendly units a 4+ FNP. I'd also be opposed to something similarly priced that lowered the number of enemy attacks in assault in a 24" bubble and let you ignore a huge chunk of the attacks that got through.

That's not to say that being able to counter your opponent's army shouldn't be a thing. Units and wargear that let you, for instance, weaken your opponent's psychic phase are fine. It should just be handled in a way that feels like it has some solid give and take and is interesting to play against. The anti-psyker assassin (Culexus?) is fine in my book because assassins tend to die pretty fast. With a little luck, that assassin could really dampen my psychic phase throughout the game, but that assassin will also die pretty quickly since it can't hide in a unit. A piece of wargear that mitigates enemy strengths can be perfectly cool too, especially if it feels limited in application or if it costs your opponent enough points to feel like they had to give something up for it.

An example of a way in which this was implemented well (in my lowly internet dweller opinion) is 5th edition Reanimation Protocols. It mitigated enemy offense by making 'crons more powerful, but you could focus fire or sweep 'crons in order to get around it. It forced the non-necron player's hand, but it still presented them with interesting options. Going back to the Culexus again, part of why it works is that it doesn't just go, "Well, however many points worth of psykers you took is useless now." Its limited range and fragility means it comes across as, "Oh crud! You better kill me first if you want to get those psychic powers off!"

Note at Wolf in Human Shape: Don't take this to be aimed at your current rules for the spellbreaker. I think it would be wise to playtest your proposed rules as they do seem rather potent still, but they feel like they're probably reasonable. This post is more aimed at the discussion of unit/army negation as a thing in general.

No worries, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just happy people even found my efforts worthy of discussion.

I barely even play this game any more. The whole endeavor is something of an exercise in futility anyway .