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 TheNewBlood wrote:

Jonesyjones wrote:
so against wraiths

take a couple of 10 man chaos marines with a hevy bolter ?
and some forgefiends?

get as many shots in ? would that work ?

You can't shoot Wraiths to death. They're T5 2W with a 3++ and 4+ Res Protocols in a Decurion. The only way to beat them is to get the charge off on them with either a serious CC hammer unit or a massive tarpit to tie them up.

Eldar can shoot Wraiths to death. Scatterlulz for the win! AND Str D!

 skoffs wrote:
Flamers against Scarabs? Yes!
Flamers against Wraiths? Not really.
Flamers against everything else CC? Well, if it's heavy flamers, then it'll toast Flayed Ones. Otherwise, not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:
The scarabs are easy to kill with either strength 6 (instant death) or template weapons (they are swarms so they take double the wounds from templates). If you have a strength 6 template weapon then you can annihilate the whole unit removing 2 bases per wound

Uhh, didn't the FAQ say it was either/or, but not both?

Honestly, I forgot 40k even had FAQs. So I went to look and there's nothing said regarding this topic. Unless you can find it.

So tarpit would likely be the better option here ...

- Bloodletters
- Spawn
- Flesh hounds

depending on their points cost ... how would walkers do for tarpitting ? maybe the humble hellbrute for 100pts might do nicely ? (unless they can brech his AV )

Jonesyjones wrote:
So tarpit would likely be the better option here ...

- Bloodletters
- Spawn
- Flesh hounds

depending on their points cost ... how would walkers do for tarpitting ? maybe the humble hellbrute for 100pts might do nicely ? (unless they can brech his AV )

They would shoot the Helbrute before it even gets to them.

The above units would work well for tarpitting, do a degree. They would probably lose combat more often than not, but they won't run away, which is nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Flamers against Scarabs? Yes!
Flamers against Wraiths? Not really.
Flamers against everything else CC? Well, if it's heavy flamers, then it'll toast Flayed Ones. Otherwise, not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:
The scarabs are easy to kill with either strength 6 (instant death) or template weapons (they are swarms so they take double the wounds from templates). If you have a strength 6 template weapon then you can annihilate the whole unit removing 2 bases per wound

Uhh, didn't the FAQ say it was either/or, but not both?

Honestly, I forgot 40k even had FAQs. So I went to look and there's nothing said regarding this topic. Unless you can find it.

If I remember correctly, it specifies under the rules for Swarms that wounds without the Instant Death special rule do an extra wound. So, S6 would just kill one base.

I think the rest of his army would be looking to fire at the more pressing units in my army allowing the hellbrute(s) to get into combat with them and tarpit.

The question is can the Wraiths hurt the hellbrute?

Jonesyjones wrote:
I think the rest of the army would be looking to fire at the more pressing units in my army allowing the hellbrute(s) to get into combat with them and tarpit.

The question is can the Wraiths hurt the hellbrute?

Yes, Wraiths are S6, the front armor on a Helbrute is AV12. Normally they would be able to glance on a 6, but Wraiths have Rending, meaning if they roll a 6, it adds an additional d3 to the armor pen roll. That translates into Wraiths auto-penning Helbrutes on 6s.

:(

sigh ...

soulgrinder it is

Jonesyjones wrote:
:(

sigh ...

Yeah, Wraiths are a pain. Best thing to use against them is to tarpit with Fleshhounds.

yeah

fleshhounds ... but they wont last long ...

soulgrinder is a option maybe? but wanted them to be my anti flyer and heavy support

Jonesyjones wrote:
yeah

fleshhounds ... but they wont last long ...

soulgrinder is a option maybe? but wanted them to be my anti flyer and heavy support

Wraiths can still hurt a Soul Grinder, though not as easily. Plus, the Soul Grinder would instagib a Wraith that fails a save. So there is that. But, then you're using a 200+ walker to tarpit ~250 points of a unit that can still hurt it. Plus, the Wraiths are fast enough to get away from the Soul Grinder, keep that in mind.

cheers .. fleshounds all the way !

Jonesyjones wrote:
cheers .. fleshounds all the way !

Yup, I can certainly say that Fleshounds, while not devastating, are super annoying.

Zimko wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Zimko wrote:
The scarabs are easy to kill with either strength 6 (instant death) or template weapons (they are swarms so they take double the wounds from templates). If you have a strength 6 template weapon then you can annihilate the whole unit removing 2 bases per wound

Uhh, didn't the FAQ say it was either/or, but not both?

Honestly, I forgot 40k even had FAQs. So I went to look and there's nothing said regarding this topic. Unless you can find it.

Ah, yes, that's right, they gutted the 7th one, so now it's a whoooole one page (totally resolves everything). Though, I realized, it was the 6th ed. FAQ (instant death superseded double wounds, so 3 wounds taken meant 3 bases removed) that clarified the issue.
So while it's not officially currently written anywhere, one could argue that there is precedent. You'd probably want to bring it up with your opponent before the game.

But, then you're using a 200+ walker

Soul grinders are much cheaper than this. You are thinking of their more expensive, less efficient relative, the defiler.

However, I believe that for wraiths the D thirster is the best counter for daemonkin. The wraith's can hurt the thirster, but even on the charge 6 wraiths will only average 2 wounds before being swiftly removed.
As an added bonus, necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs, meaning it stands a good likelihood of staying around a few turns.

Soul grinders should do well too, especially if your to hit rolls are good.

Alternatively, flesh hounds will do a decent job of tarpitting a wraith squad. They must be daemonkin though, as daemon khorne hounds will be ground down through combat res wounds.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

But, then you're using a 200+ walker

Soul grinders are much cheaper than this. You are thinking of their more expensive, less efficient relative, the defiler.

However, I believe that for wraiths the D thirster is the best counter for daemonkin. The wraith's can hurt the thirster, but even on the charge 6 wraiths will only average 2 wounds before being swiftly removed.
As an added bonus, necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs, meaning it stands a good likelihood of staying around a few turns.

Soul grinders should do well too, especially if your to hit rolls are good.

Alternatively, flesh hounds will do a decent job of tarpitting a wraith squad. They must be daemonkin though, as daemon khorne hounds will be ground down through combat res wounds.

Well, when I usually see Soul Grinders, they are a Daemon of X, as well as having an additional weapon (Usually Phlegm Bombarment).

And the D Thirster would, sadly, do very well. There isn't much Necrons have that can hurt it, especially if it has the Grimoire and a rerolling invulns or a 4+ FNP from Greater Rewards.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs

... Destroyers?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
However, I believe that for wraiths the D thirster is the best counter for daemonkin. The wraith's can hurt the thirster, but even on the charge 6 wraiths will only average 2 wounds before being swiftly removed.

The D-thirster is pretty good at being tarpitted. Wraiths tie it down quite nicely. D only insta-gibs them on a 6, and we all know how unreliable 6s are in the long run. Even if a D attack gets through, they have a 1/3 chance to survive if they only roll a 1 for the d3 Wounds.

Bloodthirsters aren't GCs, so they can't Stomp their way out of tarpits. A large unit of Scarabs that has Spyders adding more each turn, or Flayed Ones bogging it down should hold it in place while the rest of the 'Crons work on the rest of the army. I've had Orikanstar tie one up for 4+ turns because 3++ rerolling 1s is pretty good against D.

Nothing in the Necron book can deal with an Invisible, Grimoired D-thirster, but we have plenty of options to hold one in place. And if they stop buffing it, it will die, so they keep throwing resources into a combat that does nothing for them. Not a win for the Necrons, but evened up, at least.

Requizen wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
However, I believe that for wraiths the D thirster is the best counter for daemonkin. The wraith's can hurt the thirster, but even on the charge 6 wraiths will only average 2 wounds before being swiftly removed.

The D-thirster is pretty good at being tarpitted. Wraiths tie it down quite nicely. D only insta-gibs them on a 6, and we all know how unreliable 6s are in the long run. Even if a D attack gets through, they have a 1/3 chance to survive if they only roll a 1 for the d3 Wounds.

Bloodthirsters aren't GCs, so they can't Stomp their way out of tarpits. A large unit of Scarabs that has Spyders adding more each turn, or Flayed Ones bogging it down should hold it in place while the rest of the 'Crons work on the rest of the army. I've had Orikanstar tie one up for 4+ turns because 3++ rerolling 1s is pretty good against D.

Nothing in the Necron book can deal with an Invisible, Grimoired D-thirster, but we have plenty of options to hold one in place. And if they stop buffing it, it will die, so they keep throwing resources into a combat that does nothing for them. Not a win for the Necrons, but evened up, at least.

Just a rules clarification, Strength D is considered S10 for the purposes of ID. So, one wound through, even without a 6, is a dead Wraith.

 skoffs wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs

... Destroyers?

Yeah sure they have one unit that can hurt them. With 5 wounds, T6 and a 4+ jink save however, the thirster will take a good number of turns for them to take out.
7 destroyers (the same cost as the thirster) only do 2 wounds to a thirster per turn.

If he is regularly facing a decurion, with wraith formations included, then he won 't be seeing too many destroyers anyway due to point restrictions.

In general necrons are not good vs MCs.

krodarklorr wrote:Just a rules clarification, Strength D is considered S10 for the purposes of ID. So, one wound through, even without a 6, is a dead Wraith.

Good catch, I had forgotten about that.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs

... Destroyers?

Yeah sure they have one unit that can hurt them. With 5 wounds, T6 and a 4+ jink save however, the thirster will take a good number of turns for them to take out.
6 destroyers (the same cost as the thirster) only do 2 wounds to a thirster per turn. If they grimoire (allied daemons).

If he is regularly facing a decurion, with wraith formations included, then he won 't be seeing too many destroyers anyway due to point restrictions.

In general necrons are not good vs MCs.

The Nightbringer in a Conclave is great against other MCs! Fleshbane, AP2, WS6, Gaze of Death in combat, 8W T8 with Invuln Saves/FNP/RP, etc. It can reliably tear apart most other MCs in combat, and even GCs if they don't have D weapons.

But the D-thirster has D. And the Conclave hates D.

Requizen wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:Just a rules clarification, Strength D is considered S10 for the purposes of ID. So, one wound through, even without a 6, is a dead Wraith.

Good catch, I had forgotten about that.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs

... Destroyers?

Yeah sure they have one unit that can hurt them. With 5 wounds, T6 and a 4+ jink save however, the thirster will take a good number of turns for them to take out.
6 destroyers (the same cost as the thirster) only do 2 wounds to a thirster per turn. If they grimoire (allied daemons).

If he is regularly facing a decurion, with wraith formations included, then he won 't be seeing too many destroyers anyway due to point restrictions.

In general necrons are not good vs MCs.

The Nightbringer in a Conclave is great against other MCs! Fleshbane, AP2, WS6, Gaze of Death in combat, 8W T8 with Invuln Saves/FNP/RP, etc. It can reliably tear apart most other MCs in combat, and even GCs if they don't have D weapons.

But the D-thirster has D. And the Conclave hates D.

It also only moves 6 a turn, making it fairly easy to avoid, only having a few turns to earn its points back, and fighting largely on the opponent's terms. It's also pretty pricey once the cost of the cryptects and powers have been included.

If the opponent chose to run that over more wraiths/destroyers/decurion stuff then I'd be happy.

Walking MC's are seriously outclassed in today's meta.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Requizen wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:Just a rules clarification, Strength D is considered S10 for the purposes of ID. So, one wound through, even without a 6, is a dead Wraith.

Good catch, I had forgotten about that.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs

... Destroyers?

Yeah sure they have one unit that can hurt them. With 5 wounds, T6 and a 4+ jink save however, the thirster will take a good number of turns for them to take out.
6 destroyers (the same cost as the thirster) only do 2 wounds to a thirster per turn. If they grimoire (allied daemons).

If he is regularly facing a decurion, with wraith formations included, then he won 't be seeing too many destroyers anyway due to point restrictions.

In general necrons are not good vs MCs.

The Nightbringer in a Conclave is great against other MCs! Fleshbane, AP2, WS6, Gaze of Death in combat, 8W T8 with Invuln Saves/FNP/RP, etc. It can reliably tear apart most other MCs in combat, and even GCs if they don't have D weapons.

But the D-thirster has D. And the Conclave hates D.

It also only moves 6 a turn, making it fairly easy to avoid, only having a few turns to earn its points back, and fighting largely on the opponent's terms. It's also pretty pricey once the cost of the cryptects and powers have been included.

If the opponent chose to run that over more wraiths/destroyers/decurion stuff then I'd be happy.

Walking MC's are seriously outclassed in today's meta.

To be fair, you almost always run it with Veil of Darkness, which lets you teleport right up the field. Even if it can't charge until turn 2 or 3, it still has 6 S5 AP3 shots (half with blind), the C'Tan powers, and Gaze of Death.

Besides, in the context of this thread, it's actually great. Plop it in front of your squishy shooty units like Warriors, run in to intercept any KDK unit that tries to charge them. Few things in the KDK book can deal with a T8 unit from a range.

Requizen wrote:

To be fair, you almost always run it with Veil of Darkness, which lets you teleport right up the field. Even if it can't charge until turn 2 or 3, it still has 6 S5 AP3 shots (half with blind), the C'Tan powers, and Gaze of Death.

Besides, in the context of this thread, it's actually great. Plop it in front of your squishy shooty units like Warriors, run in to intercept any KDK unit that tries to charge them. Few things in the KDK book can deal with a T8 unit from a range.

Ah yes, the only way to make a C'Tan usable. And even then....meh?

Let me just edit this for you:

Few things in the KDK book can deal with any unit from a range.

lol.

With all things included, the c'tan & friends will cost nearly 400 points.

I still stand by what I said: 10 wraiths or destroyers will have more of an impact on a game imo.

This is all a bit unrelated to the thread however, unless the OP's opponent is running said c'tan unit.

Heldrakes, kited chaos lord on a jugg with chaos spawn will help deal with ground cron pretty well, as previously stated stay away from wraiths or boggle them down with chump units like cultists to get tithes, heldrakes blasting ghost arks will net you some easy warrior kills etc forgefiends are nice to dakka warriors away even on a 5+ rnp (or 6 if not decurion)

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
necrons are not great at shooting T6 +3 save MCs

... Destroyers?

Yeah sure they have one unit that can hurt them.

Well, Destroyers were just the first obvious thing that came to mind (did you factor in their rerolls to hit and wound, plus their auto wound on a 6?).
If I was going to list everything that can threaten a T6 +3 save MC...
• Destroyers
• Praetorians
• Lychguard
• Deathmarks
• massed Warrior shooting
• Canoptek anything
• anything with a Tesla Destructor
• etc.