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Hey guys I currently play chaos and am considering going loyalist due to the fact if I'm honest I'm finding my heretics irritating lol anyway what I wanted to know is there any units in the codex in particular I should avoid? I will probably end up doing a mechanised battle company. Also any suggestions on what chapter tactics to use is a appreciated. I'm considering getting the marines from AoBR as I could easily make a bound army from that then add former loyalist vehicles from my csm to bolster them

Currently, avoid most Dreadnoughts and Scout bikes unless you have a good reason for them.

Most people are running bike heavy lists, or taking scouts for the low point cost.

Look at the new armoured formations. A lot of people are running suppression force (at least two whirlwinds and a LS).

Not a lot of people are playing terminators at all either, as they're a huge point sink that don't do enough. That generally includes the LR.

A lot depends on what you are looking for. And how competitive you want to be. While some units are more efficient then others, I don’t think there are a whole lot of useless units in the codex. Naturally, if you are aiming for a very competitive list, certain units are going to rise to the top.

AoBR is not a bad core to an army.

The MM dread is going to want a drop pod to get the most out of his weapon, but can just trudge along next to the rest of your army. He’s got 4 attacks and chapter tactics, so can do some damage.

Tac marines are tac marines, unless you are running bikes/scouts, you need them.

Tactical terminators are OK. They aren’t as tough as they should be, and don’t have a huge amount of firepower. But if you keep them away from massed fire and AP2, they can work OK. Not the best unit, but iconic and kinda fun.

Are you looking for a mechanized list focusing on tanks or infantry? Generally Iron Hands is going to favor tanks, but if you are pushing full tac squads up in rhinos, Imperial Fists do a nice job with bolters. Although other chapters also have their perks.

These days I’d take a look at the units you like, and look at the formations that use them. Build from there. Probably form a core around a demi company, and add to that; the Gladius is quite nice. Having the units to tag a CAD onto your army will help you field odds and ends that you can’t fit into other formations.

I have to disagree with Nevelon.

AoBR gives you a lot of units you won't ever really want field again after you've learned the codex (until GW changes everything again).

I have lots of tactical marines and rarely field them, as I find Bikes are better and scouts are cheaper. Thats said, you'll want a few for building the Gladius Formation, which is a brutally efficient list.

The terminators and the dreadnought though? You'll stop using them real fast and they'll just take up space in you army bag or display case. This makes the AoBR a pretty bad core army. Sure you can play right away, but over half the army won't be competitive even in friendly games.

Honestly, get a few bikes, a 5 man sniper scout squad, and a tank or two. I'd go with the LS and two Whirlwinds, as whirlwinds can swap into regular rhinos when you want and you can keep building from here without any chaff models.

Build one bike as an HQ and field the bikes in squads of 3 or 4 with a grav-gun and combi grav (or melta and multi-melta), plop the scouts in cover, and bomb your opponent with the whirlwinds. Bonus: If you already have chaos rhinos, scratch-build or kit-bash some whirlwind missile launchers and run them "Counts-as".

My favorite feature of a Marine army is you can actually build it from a "hey that is a cool model" approach and not be totally screwed on the tabletop.

I happened to have a lot of marines and always the like the look of bolter boys on the table so run a UM Gladius built around PA and TDA as the bully boys.

 devinple wrote:
I have to disagree with Nevelon.

AoBR gives you a lot of units you won't ever really want field again after you've learned the codex (until GW changes everything again).

I have lots of tactical marines and rarely field them, as I find Bikes are better and scouts are cheaper. Thats said, you'll want a few for building the Gladius Formation, which is a brutally efficient list.

The terminators and the dreadnought though? You'll stop using them real fast and they'll just take up space in you army bag or display case. This makes the AoBR a pretty bad core army. Sure you can play right away, but over half the army won't be competitive even in friendly games.

Honestly, get a few bikes, a 5 man sniper scout squad, and a tank or two. I'd go with the LS and two Whirlwinds, as whirlwinds can swap into regular rhinos when you want and you can keep building from here without any chaff models.

Build one bike as an HQ and field the bikes in squads of 3 or 4 with a grav-gun and combi grav (or melta and multi-melta), plop the scouts in cover, and bomb your opponent with the whirlwinds. Bonus: If you already have chaos rhinos, scratch-build or kit-bash some whirlwind missile launchers and run them "Counts-as".

woahwoah woah... the new Dreadnought's with 4 attacks are bangin' mate and with Gladius and Skyhammer being so good Tactical, Asaault and Devastator Marines are all damn valuable nowadays

GAdvance wrote:
woahwoah woah... the new Dreadnought's with 4 attacks are bangin' mate and with Gladius and Skyhammer being so good Tactical, Assault and Devastator Marines are all damn valuable nowadays

I see this opinion a lot. People at my lgs are running armies with 1-4 dreadnoughts. They drop down, get left behind on the battlefield, or blown up, and don't carry their point cost unless you get lucky on a tank. They look good, but, as far as I've seen, don't work well.

They're not bad; they're just not as good as other units for the points. Like, a bike troop choice or a ST/Raptor, or any else but a dreadnought.

 devinple wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
woahwoah woah... the new Dreadnought's with 4 attacks are bangin' mate and with Gladius and Skyhammer being so good Tactical, Assault and Devastator Marines are all damn valuable nowadays

I see this opinion a lot. People at my lgs are running armies with 1-4 dreadnoughts. They drop down, get left behind on the battlefield, or blown up, and don't carry their point cost unless you get lucky on a tank. They look good, but, as far as I've seen, don't work well.

They're not bad; they're just not as good as other units for the points. Like, a bike troop choice or a ST/Raptor, or any else but a dreadnought.

Dreads are way cheaper than a raptor and min bikes with grav guns bikes are essentially an overpowered unit anyway so not really a good comparison

Dreads are way cheaper than a raptor and min bikes with grav guns bikes are essentially an overpowered unit anyway so not really a good comparison

That's not how comparisons work in 40k. Units take up points and slots. Putting something in your army prevents you from putting in other things. If you assign an overall number value (1-10) to how good a unit is and you can only take say 5 units, you take the best 5 units; don't take a 3 when you can have a 7. When it's parsed down this way the answer is easy. 40k may seem more complicated, but answers can be made simpler when units are comparable point costs which bikes and dreadnoughts are. Some units serve different purposes, but that purpose can still be rated with a quick number. Take the best units, then look for synergies and adjust. That's army building 101. Any units is can assessed as "just fine", but if you want better, take better.

Do I take this unit for x points or this one, which is "essentially an overpowered unit" for x points? dreadnoughts aren't as good as bikes, so take the bikes. Storm talons are the same cost do they compare better to bikes? not often. Do they compare better than dreadnoughts? Almost always. That's two better units for the same point cost.

I would consider making your list based off of MSU White Scars Bike units with a mix of different special weapons (so 2 units of melta, 2 units of grav, maybe even some guys with flamers). Have Kahn as your warlord. 1 or 2 Stormtalons will be useful for AA.

Then ally in an Iron Hands Chapter Master, a scout squad, and a command squad with an apothecary and either cc weapons or grav guns.

Put a Suppression Force in with a Techmarine, 3 whirlwinds, and a thunderfire canon or 2.

 devinple wrote:

Dreads are way cheaper than a raptor and min bikes with grav guns bikes are essentially an overpowered unit anyway so not really a good comparison

That's not how comparisons work in 40k. Units take up points and slots. Putting something in your army prevents you from putting in other things. If you assign an overall number value (1-10) to how good a unit is and you can only take say 5 units, you take the best 5 units; don't take a 3 when you can have a 7. When it's parsed down this way the answer is easy. 40k may seem more complicated, but answers can be made simpler when units are comparable point costs which bikes and dreadnoughts are. Some units serve different purposes, but that purpose can still be rated with a quick number. Take the best units, then look for synergies and adjust. That's army building 101. Any units is can assessed as "just fine", but if you want better, take better.

Do I take this unit for x points or this one, which is "essentially an overpowered unit" for x points? dreadnoughts aren't as good as bikes, so take the bikes. Storm talons are the same cost do they compare better to bikes? not often. Do they compare better than dreadnoughts? Almost always. That's two better units for the same point cost.

Thanks for the advice but i quite understand how cost effectiveness works its a very simple concept

I play the game for a balance, if you want it's pretty easy to break 40k and we all know that and dreads are a unit that is both effective and yet still doesn't do that, mass biker min squads with grav does and frankly i think it's probably harder building an army more people will have fun playing with and against than building a tournament list