Grey Knights

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**CrashGordon94**

greyknight12 wrote:
Feth that, if everyone's getting free transports and D-weapons I want to be able to assault out of deep strike

Honestly Assault from Deep Strike should be universal, I even thought of a way to implement it (might suggest it in the Proposed Rules forum).

**vipoid**

No, it really shouldn't.

**Grubass**

vipoid wrote:
No, it really shouldn't.

Agree to not all. However allowing termos and xenos equivalent do it would make em more viable overall overall.

**CrashGordon94**

vipoid wrote:
No, it really shouldn't.

Okay, why not? I don't see why it shouldn't be.

**vipoid**

Because there are far too many ways to both deep strike accurately and remove all risk from deep striking.

Even a unit that could simply reroll the scatter dice and assault after deep striking would be amazing.

But, the game goes far beyond that. Drop pods are the main offenders, which can be taken by most SM factions as dedicated transports, FA choices, or simply by allying in other SM factions. Half of them arrive automatically on the first turn, they can't mishap by anything other than scattering off the board, and even if they do scatter you have 6" to reposition your unit afterwards.

Having dreadnoughts, assault marines, veterans etc. arrive on the first turn and immediately assault is utterly ludicrous.

And, even outside of marines you have stuff like the WWP - which would let DE, Eldar and Harlequins land with perfect accuracy 1" from an enemy and then immediately assault them.

Do you really not see the problem with this?

**gummyofallbears**

agreed.

I don't think assaulting after deepstrike would be the main way to fix Grey Knights.

But I don't play Grey Knights, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

**CrashGordon94**

No, I don't really see the problem with that.
You can already shoot after Deep Striking, and shooting is generally considered to be better than assault.
And honestly it just seems good, not broken. Having it impossible is just bloody stupid.
Where's the problem?

**vipoid**

CrashGordon94 wrote:
No, I don't really see the problem with that.
You can already shoot after Deep Striking, and shooting is generally considered to be better than assault.

Has it occurred to you that this is one of the reasons shooting is considered better than assault? Allowing units to assault after deep striking would tip the balance back way too far.

CrashGordon94 wrote:

And honestly it just seems good, not broken. Having it impossible is just bloody stupid.

Why?

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Where's the problem?

If you can't see the problem then I can't help you. All I can suggest is that you start your proposed thread on it - perhaps others will be able to explain the problem better.

**Vaktathi**

gummyofallbears wrote:
so, the general consensus is that grey knights are kinda meh.

ok, thats what I thought.

and so from what I understand, the only OP thing they have is draigo, and what makes him so OP?

AP2 at initiative is kinda meh now that the wraithknight exists, and he is only ML2 if I remember correctly

Mainly his ability to run around with a Librarian and sport a 2+/2++ in a unit of Paladins and play all sorts of wound allocation gimmicks to basically make the unit immortal.

Not *the* most broken thing out there, but certainly not something that really should exist either

CrashGordon94 wrote:
vipoid wrote:
No, it really shouldn't.

Okay, why not? I don't see why it shouldn't be.

Assaults have a number of advantages over shooting, several rather powerful ones. This is balanced by the fact that it's much harder to get into an assault than shooting. If you can assault from deep strike, that whole idea goes away. Shooting has no equivalent of "sweeping advance", shooting doesn't lock an opposing units actions the way CC does, and shooting doesn't get to automatically hit rear vehicle armor on never worse than a 3+. You also typically can't engage multiple enemy units in shooting the way you can execute a multiple assault. Likewise, assaults ignore all cover saves as a matter of course to boot. Being able to engage in attacks that do all of these things without an opponent ever having had the ability to engage you beforehand and appearing from basically any spot on the board, would be, well, very silly. I can just seen entire IG armies disappearing in a single turn 1 drop pod assault.

**CrashGordon94**

vipoid wrote:
Has it occurred to you that this is one of the reasons shooting is considered better than assault? Allowing units to assault after deep striking would tip the balance back way too far.

Yes, it certainly is, and that's why it needs to be rectified.
It certainly does not tip the balance too far at all since...
1) Only shooting can ever hit on 2+ and it isn't reduced by opposing WS.
2) Shooting doesn't put your own units at risk (except for Gets Hot and such), and doesn't lock them in combat.
3) Pods don't have Assault Vehicle so you'd need to rely on the usual means, which are known to have issues.
4) OVERWATCH

vipoid wrote:
Why?

It's totally arbitrary, it makes no sense, it adds unneeded nerfs to an already weak phase and it gimps several units (Terminators of all flavors, Assault Marines, Warp Talons and so on).

vipoid wrote:
If you can't see the problem then I can't help you.

Yes you can, by explaining! It's really that simple. Like Vak below you (reply to that after the break)

**vipoid**

CrashGordon94 wrote:

It certainly does not tip the balance too far at all since...
1) Only shooting can ever hit on 2+ and it isn't reduced by opposing WS.

How does this balance anything?

CrashGordon94 wrote:

2) Shooting doesn't put your own units at risk (except for Gets Hot and such), and doesn't lock them in combat.

Nor does shooting give your own units immunity to enemy shooting.

CrashGordon94 wrote:

3) Pods don't have Assault Vehicle so you'd need to rely on the usual means, which are known to have issues.

Pods are open topped.

CrashGordon94 wrote:

4) OVERWATCH

Unless you're Tau, Overwatch is only a threat to melee units that are crap anyway (*cough* wyches *cough*).

#3 is outright wrong, the the other three don't coming anywhere near the advantage assaulting from deep strike would offer.

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Yes you can, by explaining! It's really that simple. Like Vak below you (reply to that after the break)

I already had explained it. But I guess that didn't count for some reason.

**CrashGordon94**

First off Vak, thank you for actually explaining instead of just going "Can't you see the problem?" over and over again. Now onto the actual reply/

Vaktathi wrote:
Assaults have a number of advantages over shooting, several rather powerful ones.

And Shooting has many advantages of its own (mentioned above so I won't repeat them).

Vaktathi wrote:
This is balanced by the fact that it's much harder to get into an assault than shooting. If you can assault from deep strike, that whole idea goes away.

Not really, since this only effects certain units to begin with and it's still trickier than just firing at someone since you have to make the charge, survive Overwatch without THAT screwing the charge and so on.

Vaktathi wrote:
Shooting has no equivalent of "sweeping advance", shooting doesn't lock an opposing units actions the way CC does, and shooting doesn't get to automatically hit rear vehicle armor on never worse than a 3+.

Shooting also has no equivalent of:
1) Getting Overwatched
2) Getting your own unit killed (outside of the limited and weak Gets Hot and such).
3) Failing a charge.
While Assault has no equivalent of:
1) Hitting on a 2+.
2) Hitting people a distance away, possibly out of the range of retaliation.
3) Template/Blast stuff
and so on.
They're different phases, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. It just so happens that Shooting has more of the former and Assault has more of the latter.
Also don't forget that sweeping advances and locking units in combat are a two-way street.

Vaktathi wrote:
You also typically can't engage multiple enemy units in shooting the way you can execute a multiple assault.

Not typically but there IS Split Fire, certain unit types that can shoot as many units as they have guns and Power Of the Machine Spirit, possibly also others I'm forgetting. A multiple assault doesn't seem too typical or simple either.

Vaktathi wrote:
Likewise, assaults ignore all cover saves as a matter of course to boot.

True, but Shooting has its own similar advantages.

Vaktathi wrote:
Being able to engage in attacks that do all of these things without an opponent ever having had the ability to engage you beforehand and appearing from basically any spot on the board, would be, well, very silly.

Not really, given scatter, Overwatch and how many of the Shooting attacks from DS or Pods can do similar.

Vaktathi wrote:
I can just seen entire IG armies disappearing in a single turn 1 drop pod assault.

Nope, ~~Pods don't have Assault Vehicle~~ and it would be very difficult to get the melee power to do it (about the same destructive potential as shooting from Pods), even if you're exaggerating.
Plus spoiling charges, Overwatching to death and so on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
How does this balance anything?

I... Don't understand this question in response to the bit you were responding to.

vipoid wrote:
Nor does shooting give your own units immunity to enemy shooting.

Nor does the unit you shoot at get to shoot back at you, plus you're not safe in Assault generally since you ARE getting hit back. And the things that don't hit back don't lock you in combat so you're no safer from outside interference than you would be by shooting.

vipoid wrote:
Pods are open topped.

Okay, I'll give you that, but if charging from Pods is the issue there are better ways to deal with it like:
1) Keep the rule that you can't Assault from a Transport that arrived from Deep Strike.
2) Make it so you can Assault from Deep Strike but not Drop Pod Assault.

vipoid wrote:
Unless you're Tau, Overwatch is only a threat to melee units that are crap anyway (*cough* wyches *cough*).

Tell that to everyone upset that Overwatch gimps their choppy units/armies.

vipoid wrote:
I already had explained it. But I guess that didn't count for some reason.

Because you didn't really explain anything, just threw out some vague stuff and went "Can't you see the problem?".

**Vaktathi**

Overwatch typically has very little effect in my experience unless you're charging something with lots of template weapons or are a vehicle of some sort charging a unit with meltaguns that gets lucky. Outside of those instances, I can't ever recall Overwatch having inflicted meaingful casualties aside from a Daemon Prince down to his last remaining wound charging a unit of guardsmen and getting hit by a lasgun, the lasgun wounding, and him failing his 3+ save (1-in-108 chance), which was amusing.

yes, shooting does have some advantages too, but typically, unless we're talking weeny units having a noodle fight, a round of CC will generally be much more potentially lethal than a round of shooting will, and quite often a single CC unit can accomplish in one round of combat what it would take three or four shooting units to do.

Multiple assaults aren't quite as common with basic infantry as they used to be in 5E, however with deathstar units, stuff like Wraiths or TWC's, they're exceedingly common as they're both fast and killy, and can position themselves to hit multiple units very easily, and particularly against vehicle targets. Even without such units, I've had entire flanks clear through just a couple of charges by even untis like Tac Squads while playing IG just because all you need to do is win by one to potentially destroy your enemy entirely. With the capabilities of Drop Pods currently and the way assaults work against vehicles, it's absolutely entirely conceivable that a drop pod army could wipe or at least break an IG army to the point where the game would be absolutely decided, on turn 1.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a couple things that should be changed with CC (primarily being able to assault out of closed top transports that didn't move like they could in 5E), and I own probably 60-70 Terminators from multiple different armies (CSM's, GK's, loyalist termi's, etc), I just really don't assault from Deep Strike would do anything good for the game.

**DoomShakaLaka**

GK are mid tier at best.

My fact that grav exists as a direct counter to pretty everything that they have is testament to that

**vipoid**

CrashGordon94 wrote:

Because you didn't really explain anything, just threw out some vague stuff and went "Can't you see the problem?".

Because I thought I'd outlined the problem quite well - you just ignored it.

Melee is supposed to be high-risk, high-reward. You want to keep the high-reward, but remove the risk entirely by letting melee units arrive next to the enemy army and assault instantly.

Moreover, you talk about benefits of shooting, but don't seem to realise that the change you're proposing negates basically every advantage shooting armies have.

- BS lets them hit on 2s? Who cares? They're only going to get snapshots at you because you'll be in assault before they get a single shooting phase.

- Range? Again, it's worthless when you're off the board and then immediately in assault.

- Shooting doesn't put them at risk? Again, rather undermined when they don't get to shoot you before you lock them in assault and/or sweep them.

Furthermore, assaulting a unit also lets you take/contest an objective that unit was holding.

- Overwatch? Considering that this is the only shooting phase they'll get, and it forces all weapons to fire snapshots, I'm not sure assault units can really complain.

The thing is, if you did this then you might as well just remove Tau and IG from the game. Same goes for virtually every shooty unit in the other armies (certainly any that lack combat ability), along with most melee units without access to deep strike.

In any case, I thought I'd give the subject its own topic, rather than continuing to hijack the GK thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/663822.page#8122435