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he surpassed Horus and all the other primarchs

in power and in accomplishments in conquering as a general

In that 10,000 years all he did was lose his arms, get a topknot, throw his weight against Cadia and get his 13th Crusade retconned? Horus brought the Imperium to it's very knees and nearly killed the Emperor permanently.



Truly, he is the best.

/sarcasm

You already did this thread once before.

For once, Rowboatjelly is correct. Speaing as someone who would love to see Chaos win, Abaddon is giving us all a terrible name.

There's a reason I play Heretic Guard...

I kind of agree with OP. He built what the Primarchs were given basically. He built a legion from warbands of Chaos marines trying to kill each other, and all his crusades were actually successes, he had different objectives for each.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I kind of agree with OP. He built what the Primarchs were given basically. He built a legion from warbands of Chaos marines trying to kill each other, and all his crusades were actually successes, he had different objectives for each.

With the mentally slowed goal of pretty much walking to Terra.

Seriously, his plan involves stretching the EoT to Terra via infesting a long line of planets. Specifically, every planet between the EoT and Terra.

Wat.

They never state what the whole goal is other than Win in the end. But each Crusade does accomplish one thing necessary in the long run to win.

You can't win by bum rushing through to Terra. You'll get bogged down on the way or actually get there and risk ever Imperial force not presently engaged in an active or serious conflict being diverted to hit them there, a long way away from any hope of replacements or falling back to regroup.

 Selym wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I kind of agree with OP. He built what the Primarchs were given basically. He built a legion from warbands of Chaos marines trying to kill each other, and all his crusades were actually successes, he had different objectives for each.

With the mentally slowed goal of pretty much walking to Terra.

Seriously, his plan involves stretching the EoT to Terra via infesting a long line of planets. Specifically, every planet between the EoT and Terra.

Wat.

It's not really much different to Horus's plan, but Abaddon has a harder time because the Imperium is on a much higher alert for that kind of thing after the heresy.

Horus managed to storm towards Terra in 7 years. Abaddon has yet to make a dent on the Imperial Capital in 10000 years. Not to say he hasn't had significant accomplishments (the Cadian Gate wouldn't be nearly as vital if he hadn't), but to put him on the same level as the Primarchs is a little hyperbolic. The Reign of Blood did more damage than an individual Black Crusade.

E. Abaddon , keeping the Humans safe from chaos with his
"accomplishments".

Tbf, he has killed millions with a severe disability.

Several, in fact.

He's a double amputee, has psychotic episodes, extreme paranoia, delusions of grandeur, and hears voices.

Most people would be clucking around at home with multiple assistants.

People often forget
1 Horus had it ALOT easier than Abbadon ever has due to the fact that up until the last moment the Emporer didn't really believe Horus was a heretic as such alot of the imperium sided with him
2 the black Crusades had only ever been called failures by imperial forces but if you read the Black Legion supplement you would actually find out Abbadon is quite smart. He knows the forces of Chaos cannot work together for a long period of time so he sets out yo achieve certain goals instead knowing that each of these actions is weakening the imperium until it hasn't got the strength to hold him back anymore. You have to remember the Imperium has a far larger amount of resources than Abbadon so if anything Abby is being rather smart by not directly engaging the imperium

Honestly the black crusades being all "successes" could also be something from the insane Abbaddon's point of view. It's actually a retcon introduced in a terrible codex, it could very well be retconned again if GW ever decides to release a new CSM codex.

That said, considering he has no arms, he hasn't done that bad.

 Korinov wrote:
Honestly the black crusades being all "successes" could also be something from the insane Abbaddon's point of view. It's actually a retcon introduced in a terrible codex, it could very well be retconned again if GW ever decides to release a new CSM codex.

That said, considering he has no arms, he hasn't done that bad.

It's not even in the codex, it's in that supplement we don't talk about.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
In that 10,000 years all he did was lose his arms, get a topknot, throw his weight against Cadia and get his 13th Crusade retconned? Horus brought the Imperium to it's very knees and nearly killed the Emperor permanently.



Truly, he is the best.

/sarcasm

Top knot? Top knot?

You call that a top knot? Just a top knot?

It is not just a top knot...

It is a HAIR TOWER!!!

Well, somebody is jelly (Top left)

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
People often forget
1 Horus had it ALOT easier than Abbadon ever has due to the fact that up until the last moment the Emporer didn't really believe Horus was a heretic as such alot of the imperium sided with him
2 the black Crusades had only ever been called failures by imperial forces but if you read the Black Legion supplement you would actually find out Abbadon is quite smart. He knows the forces of Chaos cannot work together for a long period of time so he sets out yo achieve certain goals instead knowing that each of these actions is weakening the imperium until it hasn't got the strength to hold him back anymore. You have to remember the Imperium has a far larger amount of resources than Abbadon so if anything Abby is being rather smart by not directly engaging the imperium

Weakening the Imperium in M.32 does not weaken it in M.41 for the "final assault on Terra" since it has much time to recover.

Wait, what successes have his black crusades had? I thought he just keeps getting thrown back into the warp by space kislev, and it's taken him 13 tries to just get a foothold on the planet.

Yeah, like, some of the internal strife in the Imperium has done way more damage than any single Black Crusade.

In fact, I am beginning to believe that Abbadon's "one true goal" is to protect Humanity from Chaos by repeatedly throwing his forces under the bus for little gain, and then when the Gods are like "WTF dude!" he just steeples his fingers and goes 'YESSSSS! THE PLANNNN!'

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Wait, what successes have his black crusades had? I thought he just keeps getting thrown back into the warp by space kislev, and it's taken him 13 tries to just get a foothold on the planet.

Then I assume you've never even looked at a map of the Black Crusades, as none of them, aside from the 1st, 2nd and the 13th, had the goal of Terra. In fact, over the centuries, there have been plenty of other important goals that have been included. Preventing a great savior of the Imperium from being reborn (3rd), creating a permanent and unrepairable hole in Cadia's defenses with the loss of the planet of El'Phanor (4th), Killing off two full chapters, improving relations with Doombreed, and leaving an entire sector worthless (5th), destroying a major forge world and removing an annoying rival in the process (6th), effectively destroying the Blood Angels (the first time) as well as general havoc (7th), and bringing an actual galactic-scale Tzeentch plan to fruition (8th), just to name a few.

That's still pathetically few things. I've seen: 1) a dead savior 2) 1 destroyed planet 3)2 SM chapters lost and one sector 4) one more planet destroyed, and some random havoc.

In that time, the imperium has probably gained, lost, and gained again more than 2 planets and a sector, more than 2 SM chapters, had a few saviors (Macharius, St. Celestine, St. Sabbat, et cetera) and endured its fair share of havoc.

His "plan" is to evaporate an ocean one gallon at a time, apparently.

So...

Stuff that any Chaos Lord with a few centuries to his name has already achieved?

Sunday cartoon villain syndrome is in full effect with Failbaddon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you say "destroyed 2-3 chapters" like it's a big deal...

Dude probably looses a few thousand CSM's per crusade.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Wait, what successes have his black crusades had? I thought he just keeps getting thrown back into the warp by space kislev, and it's taken him 13 tries to just get a foothold on the planet.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Crusade

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Horus managed to storm towards Terra in 7 years. Abaddon has yet to make a dent on the Imperial Capital in 10000 years. Not to say he hasn't had significant accomplishments (the Cadian Gate wouldn't be nearly as vital if he hadn't), but to put him on the same level as the Primarchs is a little hyperbolic. The Reign of Blood did more damage than an individual Black Crusade.

Horus had half of all Imperial military might on his side, not to mention the fact that the Adeptus MEchanicus's empire was turned to rubble by him (foundation of the Dark MEchanium, and all that). Not only that, but Horus had half of the few remaining loyal Legions (and their Imperial Army auxilliaries) sent out to the farthest reaches of the galaxy to slow their reaction times. Horus started from the inside, with equal or superior military might that was equal to (if not superior to) that of his foes. abaddon is assaulting from the outside with inferior numbers and military might, without even the hope of infiltrating the Imperium with spies to anywhere near the level that Horus did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
Honestly the black crusades being all "successes" could also be something from the insane Abbaddon's point of view. It's actually a retcon introduced in a terrible codex, it could very well be retconned again if GW ever decides to release a new CSM codex.

That said, considering he has no arms, he hasn't done that bad.

1st Black Crusade: literally destroyed thousands of planets and created many Daemon worlds. Seems like a victory to me.
2nd Black Crusade: Allowed tens of thousands of Traitor Marines to leave the Eye of Terror in a massive exodus from Cadia (prior to failing to destroy Cadia). This has allowed Chaos Cults to spring up all over the place, not to mention the face that it gave Chaos Marines the capability to establish strongholds all over the Segmentum Obscurus. Seems like a victory to me.
3rd Black Crusade: Imperial Saint's prophecies prevented from being fulfilled while a diversionary attack massacres millions on Cadia. Seems like a victory to me.
4th Black Crusade: Defenses of the Cadian Gate critically weakened by the destruction of a key fortress world. Seems like a victory to me.
5th Black Crusade: scouring of an entire Sector, plus the destruction of two planet's worth of shipyards, plus the (less important) destruction of two Space Marine Chapters in their entirety. Seems like a victory to me.
6th Black Crusade: elimination of a powerful rival and subsuming of the second largest force of ex-Sons-of-Horus in the Eye of Terror. Seems like a victory to me.
7th Black Crusade: His one's called the "Ghost War" for a reason. The forces of Abaddon spilled out of the eye and slipped straight through the Cadian defenses. They spread fear and deceit for centuries, likely establishing hundreds of Chaos strongholds , and definitely establishing thousands of Chaos Cults throughout the Imperium of Man. This also lead to a (less important) massacre of a few Companies of Blood Angels. Seems like a victory to me.
8th Black Crusade: Basically just a glorified sacrifice to Tzeentch. It wasn't much of a victory, but it confused the hell out of the Imperials. Definitely wasn't a defeat.
9th Black Crusade: Saw to the scouring of an entire Sector, which just so happened to be a critical Imperial Navy stronghold. Seems like a victory to me.
10th Black Crusade: Used ancient rivalries to forge an alliance between the Black Legion and the Iron Warriors while his diversionary forces saw to the destruction of scores of worlds. Seems like a victory to me.
11th Black Crusade: Wasn't much of a "Crusade". Abaddon attacked a single planet in order to experiment upon, and study, Orks. Wasn't much of a victory, but it definitely wasn't a defeat.
12th Black Crusade: Acquisition of 2 insanely powerful and ancient Xenos Star Forts, and destroying 4 irreplaceable Xenos relics used by the Imperium, plus destroying scores of Imperial worlds. Seems like a victory to me.
13th Black Crusade: They retconned this one, so we don't really know what's gonna happen.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Wait, what successes have his black crusades had? I thought he just keeps getting thrown back into the warp by space kislev, and it's taken him 13 tries to just get a foothold on the planet.

6th Edition has retconned the BC's. None besides the 1st and 13th were direct attempts to take Cadia or any world in the Imperium for that matter. 2-12 has just been building up to that goal.

Suddenly The Talon Of Horus turns into a Baneblade!
How could this happen? only a tactical genius could....
CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!!

I always felt that Abaddon/the Traitor Legions in general weren't actually supposed to be a threat that could match the Imperium in a straight fight. They don't have the resources, they don't have the numbers, they don't really have anything to match the overwhelming force that would be thrown at them should they try to march on Terra properly.

It makes more sense, from a plot perspective, to see Abaddon's attempts as the strikes of a guerilla force against a much larger conventional opponent. He knows he can't win with brute force, because the Imperial Guard alone can beat him at it. Actually, what the powerful but vastly outgunned forces in the Eye of Terror are most likely trying to do is weaken the Imperium from within. In one of the older codexes (apologies, I can't remember which one), it was stated that the vast majority of the Imperium's denizens aren't even aware of the existence of Chaos, let alone that it's a Bad Thing and must be avoided. By exposing more and more of the Imperium to his creed, Abaddon lets them know that there's an alternative. Sure, by our standards it's a hideous alternative, but the idea of gods that you can actually see at work in the world and who reward you for seeking power is probably pretty attractive to people who've been told their duty is to serve all their lives. Once you have your enemy tearing itself apart from within, overthrowing their rulers and installing yourself in that position is a much easier task - especially if, say, a whole tonne of worlds come out in support of you due to cults you've seeded there and allowed to grow in power for centuries.

'Course, given that GW's loremaking has been weak as of late and so much of my post is pure speculation, chances are this interpretation isn't even close to the truth and Abbo is literally just throwing his troops at a brick wall in the hopes that it cracks at some point...

LightKing wrote:
he surpassed Horus and all the other primarchs

in power and in accomplishments in conquering as a general

This seems familiar, OP.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646252.page

> Realise that OP has a (probably) unjustified hardon for Abaddon

> Applaud OP

> Laugh at the double amputee who can't win for gak

I really don't think it's as unjustified as you make out. You can ignore the changes to the Black Crusades that make them successes if you want, but that doesn't mean they aren't successes now. And he did build a legion from scratch from Chaos Space Marines who otherwise would be trying to kill each other, which is a pretty impressive feat in my books. In some areas, Abaddon is more impressive than the Primarchs, considering they were handed their legions. Abaddon built from scratch what they were just given.