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Somewhat random responses:

40k has always had TLoS. In 4th Ed they introduced area terrain, but when gamers basically played all terrain as area terrain, they had a strop and took it back out again.

Multibasing isn't functionally an issue with cover, area terrain is treated like embarking and disembarking a vehicle.

Rule 1 guys, some of you are starting to toe it/almost step over it, reel it in

Quite happy with the multi basing thing to be honest.

Coming from an Ork player :-D

MLaw wrote:It's not just the size of the figures/bases with the scale difference. I find that when you scale it down like that, things are spaced out quite a bit more. Even still, in epic, your units weren't just one mass of units, it was a number of stands. I've seen similar with many 15mm games.

True. And even a formation's worth of stands in epic, bunched together, representing an entire company's worth of tac marines, would have a smaller footprint on a 'standard' table than a blob of five 28mm minis. (Especially a blob like Captain Jake showed. I assume that's for display, or my mind can more easily accept it that way, but even the idea of putting smaller 28mm minis on those giant tractor tires before putting them on a movement tray...)

It's easier with unit block games, representing a different style of battle with more tightly ranked formations and a tradition of finding the nearest open field, but even then I'm personally starting to think 28mm is a bit chunky for that too.

keltikhoa wrote:
Ahh thank you, I begin to see the issue.
I have not played KoW but i have read the rules and as i understand it each model in a unit (other than special models) is basically just a wound counter, or max HP counter so to speak.

That's actually more of a description of WHFB than KoW. In KoW, the minis matter even less than that, merely being something to fill up the area of the unit footprint, which is the real focus of attention. If you want to look at it so cynically, which I think is a mistake. Because...

GrimDork wrote:
I will say though, as to the models being superfluous. That's just bs. At least as far as I'm concerned. I mean, you don't need those models, no. I'm not arguing that. You could just use one model, sure, though there are probably better rulesets if you really want to skirmish like that... but I'm talking about aesthetics. I don't want to play a game with a single model representing five, or hell, card counters instead of troopers. I want my five guys out there, even if them getting shot individually doesn't matter, even if they all shoot with one profile like they were a monstrous creature. From a painting and modeling standpoint (and my biggest hook for any hobby game) I want all of my guys.

Aye, that.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
This exact issue made me really not want to get into Kings of War, why turn a unit into some sort of Monstrous Creature?

I don't know if I'd strictly agree with the 'monstrous creature' description, but just about every historical and fantasy mass battle game - barring Warhammer and it's few offshoots - is like that, focusing on units or multibased elements. And players still buy loads of minis to fill them rather than move about squares of cardboard with things like 'orc rabble' or '87th Highlanders' scrawled on them. They know, in the way that people who think that 23rd mini buried in the middle of a horde is a unique character represented by a unique game element with a unique role and unique agency perhaps have trouble grasping, is that it's all about the look of the thing. And then not just about the look of individual minis but - mirroring the game mechanics - the look of the whole unit, the whole army en masse. The grand spectacle.

timetowaste85 wrote:It feels like the same argument with GW.

Yes, it does.

pongo50 wrote:
The Rules give us variety, a good thing in my mind

I dunno. I think rules giving us quality has something to be said for it too. But we'll see when the dust settles.

I'm addicted to Mantic's sci-fi kickstarter campaigns, so it's probably a foregone conclusion that I'll stay in for the duration of this one, too. That said, my priority remains skirmish-level - I'm more in interested in Deadzone, and will probably never play Warpath, 40K, or any mass battles sci-fi miniature game. I'd never get all the miniatures finished, for one thing.

So, being in this as a Deadzoner who's backed all the previous Deadzone campaigns, I'm not yet seeing how they'll keep me on at the standard $125 pledge level, because:

1. I don't need any more duplicate troops - I got enough previously funded Deadzone figures from previous kickstarters. And all the faction sets come with a lot of those previously funded figures.
2. I don't need any rulebooks, as I'll probably never play. I wouldn't mind getting that background book, though.
3. I have no use for any 3 identical vehicles. I could potentially see getting 1 of each, even though Deadzone doesn't use them, to use as cover / scenery. A landed dropship or derelict Forge Father tank would make for a colorful battlefield element.

I could well go a la carte this time. Itunderstand it's a Warpath kickstarter, not a Deadzone one, but it would be nice if there were some Deadzone-specific bundles or something that targeted returning customers like myself who backed development of the hard plastic FF, Veer'Myn, Enforcers, etc. already and are just looking to get completely new DZ fodder. At $75, no troop-based battlegroup will appeal to me if half the figures in it are already in or coming to my collection from a previous KS. And at $75, no buy-3-of-the-same vehicle deal is going to sway me when I only want one. Throwing in some extra resin bits is nice, but still won't make me believe that I'd ever use all three vehicles.

That said, I'm almost certain I'll be getting the dwarf drop troopers. At $15 they're not a steal, but as Forge Guard they're competitive with online discounters (Miniature Market has Forge Guard for a bit less than a dollar more), and these come with the metal bits, which, love them or hate them, will make a drop trooper Mantic box harder to find at a low price. One extra sprue of Forge Guard is about the only Forge Father item I currently have a use for, so this is the place to get it.

 Vermonter wrote:
I'm addicted to Mantic's sci-fi kickstarter campaigns, so it's probably a foregone conclusion that I'll stay in for the duration of this one, too. That said, my priority remains skirmish-level - I'm more in interested in Deadzone, and will probably never play Warpath, 40K, or any mass battles sci-fi miniature game. I'd never get all the miniatures finished, for one thing.

So, being in this as a Deadzoner who's backed all the previous Deadzone campaigns, I'm not yet seeing how they'll keep me on at the standard $125 pledge level, because:

1. I don't need any more duplicate troops - I got enough previously funded Deadzone figures from previous kickstarters. And all the faction sets come with a lot of those previously funded figures.
2. I don't need any rulebooks, as I'll probably never play. I wouldn't mind getting that background book, though.
3. I have no use for any 3 identical vehicles. I could potentially see getting 1 of each, even though Deadzone doesn't use them, to use as cover / scenery. A landed dropship or derelict Forge Father tank would make for a colorful battlefield element.

I could well go a la carte this time. Itunderstand it's a Warpath kickstarter, not a Deadzone one, but it would be nice if there were some Deadzone-specific bundles or something that targeted returning customers like myself who backed development of the hard plastic FF, Veer'Myn, Enforcers, etc. already and are just looking to get completely new DZ fodder. At $75, no troop-based battlegroup will appeal to me if half the figures in it are already in or coming to my collection from a previous KS. And at $75, no buy-3-of-the-same vehicle deal is going to sway me when I only want one. Throwing in some extra resin bits is nice, but still won't make me believe that I'd ever use all three vehicles.

That said, I'm almost certain I'll be getting the dwarf drop troopers. At $15 they're not a steal, but as Forge Guard they're competitive with online discounters (Miniature Market has Forge Guard for a bit less than a dollar more), and these come with the metal bits, which, love them or hate them, will make a drop trooper Mantic box harder to find at a low price. One extra sprue of Forge Guard is about the only Forge Father item I currently have a use for, so this is the place to get it.

I'd say that Firefight sounds like it would be more up your street than Warpath proper, certainly!

Otherwise the $50 "gaming set" part of the $125 doesn't have much to offer you - there's nothing exclusive there yet, and it's entirely content that you would use to play Warpath or Firefight. I'm guessing that they'll add a resin Blaine and possibly a few more freebies to that by the end of the campaign.

The $75 starter armies are by definition not going to have much new for someone who has been consistently buying into the Deadzone Kickstarters, but the idea is that we're soon going to be moving into the factions that don't already have hard plastic troops. I for one can't wait to amass a gribbly Plague force, for example!

Still pretty meh so far but we'll see. No reason to drop my pledge until the last day or two if I need to.

Still not a fan of the vehicle pricing. And the idea that they don't have multibasing already worked out is a bit unnerving as well as not having any of the info for Firefight before the end of the campaign. But meh, it's mantic

 Hulksmash wrote:
But meh, it's mantic

Uh oh!

I think we have a new potential Mantic Slogan!

1) Mantic. Almost.
2) But meh, it's Mantic.

At the end of the campaign, I'm sure the 'value' (quantity of miniatures?) will be there, but it is a bit troubling that key, critical rules elements are still up in the air.

40K/GW are vulnerable/ripe for the picking - if a viable alternative it make available!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Still pretty meh so far but we'll see. No reason to drop my pledge until the last day or two if I need to.

Still not a fan of the vehicle pricing. And the idea that they don't have multibasing already worked out is a bit unnerving as well as not having any of the info for Firefight before the end of the campaign. But meh, it's mantic

I agree with everything you've said here, right up to worrying about my pledge on the last day.

Maybe we need some of the Donald Trump mojo to help us out. Instead of "Make America Great" baseball caps it can read "Make Wargames Fun". Come on Mantic (or anyone).. please make a mass battle sci-fi game that isn't terrible.

I have been struggling with why Mantic would be so adamant about what they've chosen to do.
A thought occurred to me. They have grown dependent upon getting funding from KS versus funding their own product development.
Look at this business model.. They get our money to develop their future releases and all of the hype. They never really have to plan very much of their own funding towards product development. Outside of literal production costs, it's a nearly pure profit model.
To protect that, they've started mitigating their releases. FF and Enforcers are pretty much done, they know they don't have much more to do on them... so they're using them as the forefront. They're refusing to use Marauders because they need to have them at the forefront of the next KS. They'll say the same thing about padding out the army or whatever when truth is, it's pretty much ready now.

The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?

Their whole story about fully fleshing out armies and being for the good of the game didn't make sense to me but wow.. it does now.

Seems like a great strategy to me. They don't have to risk their money or become beholden to vulture capitalist funding. Instead, all they need are a few thousand people who want to spend 100$ on product that they would buy if it was available via normal retail anyway.

I have absolutely no issues with Mantic doing this over and over again considering the great deals I get each and every time.

I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.

They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.

 squall018 wrote:
I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.

They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.

I won't draw comparisons with assistance programs but basically, if they never use KS funding to make themselves self-sufficient then their well-being as a company is dependent upon Kickstarter. It also means that our only way of buying new stuff from them without a huge price hike (we already discussed their massive MSRP spike), is to pre-pay a year or more out. Maybe I'm turning into a crotchety old man but I prefer companies to sell things as they already exist.

 MLaw wrote:

 squall018 wrote:
I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.

They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.

I won't draw comparisons with assistance programs but basically, if they never use KS funding to make themselves self-sufficient then their well-being as a company is dependent upon Kickstarter. It also means that our only way of buying new stuff from them without a huge price hike (we already discussed their massive MSRP spike), is to pre-pay a year or more out. Maybe I'm turning into a crotchety old man but I prefer companies to sell things as they already exist.

That's fair, and you can prefer that. But they also don't have to listen to you. There are plenty of companies that do what you prefer, but this one doesn't. There's no point banging your head against the wall about it. I get that we're all here to discuss the KS, but at some point, you just have to accept the facts or move on.

 MLaw wrote:

 squall018 wrote:
I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.

They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.

I won't draw comparisons with assistance programs but basically, if they never use KS funding to make themselves self-sufficient then their well-being as a company is dependent upon Kickstarter. It also means that our only way of buying new stuff from them without a huge price hike (we already discussed their massive MSRP spike), is to pre-pay a year or more out. Maybe I'm turning into a crotchety old man but I prefer companies to sell things as they already exist.

Yes, you're a crotchety old man (me too)

But that doesn't change the fact that you're right. I'd be interested to know how much product they sell post-kickstarter. They basically flood the market everytime they deliver a kickstarter with everybody and their dog taking advantage of low-price models and then selling them on ebay or other places afterwards; they don't have a huge market because if they did, they wouldn't depend upon kickstarter to begin with so is it possible that most of their customers take advantage of the KS and then don't buy anything or little afterwards?

 Kirasu wrote:
Seems like a great strategy to me. They don't have to risk their money or become beholden to vulture capitalist funding. Instead, all they need are a few thousand people who want to spend 100$ on product that they would buy if it was available via normal retail anyway.

I have absolutely no issues with Mantic doing this over and over again considering the great deals I get each and every time.

Yeah, even if it is 100% true I fail to see how that hurts me as a consumer. Fronting their own money either means that a bank is getting some portion of the funds I will eventually pay (so I have to pay even more at retail) or that Mantic takes a portion of the funds from each line to do development on another title at their own risk (this means more money on an individual product line that is successful gets funneled back into that product line and the "next idea" has to stand on its own merits in front of the Kickstarter market). The only issue I can see is that it might feel disingenuous on Mantic's part if they aren't upfront about this being their strategy, but I don't see any reason they would want to create a big cover-up as the end result is beneficial for both Mantic and backers.

There should be a sticky at the top of this forum that explains why no, you're completely wrong about financing and kickstarter and here's why, because the same incorrect claims and assumptions come up in every major project thread, and the same answers as to why they are wrong are posted every time, and ignored every time.

 NTRabbit wrote:
There should be a sticky at the top of this forum that explains why no, you're completely wrong about financing and kickstarter and here's why, because the same incorrect claims and assumptions come up in every major project thread, and the same answers as to why they are wrong are posted every time, and ignored every time.

But people love to repeat themselves, often and loudly, on every page in a thread.

Bombad wrote:
Yeah, even if it is 100% true I fail to see how that hurts me as a consumer.

It hurts you as a consumer because Mantic does not give you the product they promised to get your money. From the Men at Arms in KoW1, resculpted by an incompetent third party and yet still passed off as fit for purpose, to the replacement of the Mantica world map in KoW2 with a different product entirely, Mantic has proven that they cannot be trusted to fulfill preorders adequately. If they promise to sell you a certain product, wait until they actually make the damn thing so you know what you're getting, then buy it.

And I feel terrible for all three backers who actually gave a feth about a print of a map which would be more convenient to print and reprint from the PDF for each campaign anyway.

Yes they could have been a little more careful about that one but really, almost noone gave a flying feth about that map until they weren't going to get quite specifically that thing they didn't give a feth about to begin with.

Now that MaA debacle I agree - but that one's been a while and they've shown substantial improvement as far as quality goes. Worst model produced from a KS by a long shot was that megagolem thing, and even that wasn't anywhere near MaA awful, just awfully meh.

Let's interrupt the bickering to say... DAAAAMN:

Stiders and iron ancestors 3/$40 too, not bad either. I'd say this is one of their better add-on Wednesdays so far.

If they bring back the 20/20 troop bundles too, a lot of value for big armies moving forward.

That's some deal for the jetbikes even better than the DZI offer but I have 8 coming and more Striders than I know what to do with so just the characters for me.

They'll hopefully have the 20 for $20 for the new HiPS sets as I need 60 3rd Gens (at least )

 MLaw wrote:
The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.

We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.

The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.

Kickstarter = hard plastic.

I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.

Bioptic wrote:


I'd say that Firefight sounds like it would be more up your street than Warpath proper, certainly!

The $75 starter armies are by definition not going to have much new for someone who has been consistently buying into the Deadzone Kickstarters, but the idea is that we're soon going to be moving into the factions that don't already have hard plastic troops. I for one can't wait to amass a gribbly Plague force, for example!

Yeah, Firefight is an outside possibility. I'm definitely going to be buying some Plague plastic 3rd gen sprues too, but probably individually. A $75 battleforce with a squad of those and lots of pre-released Plague figures (restic 2nd gens, restic support, a 1st gen, etc.) would be a harder sell for me, as there aren't any I need. I went through conversion contortions getting my 6 current 2nd Gens as varied and posed as I wanted (I'm not a fan of their default poses), and now I love them, but I won't buy more.

Anyhow, none of this should be read as "rage," etc. I understand why Mantic are structuring their deals this way, and on balance, it will probably work out best for them. If there's some way to slip in some deals for longtime Deadzone supporters who already have enough of the older models, though, I certainly wouldn't mind.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.

We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.

The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.

Kickstarter = hard plastic.

I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.

Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs

"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"

I could see the Plague Battlegroup consisting of 20 3rd Gens, 20 plague Zombies, 6 2nd Gens, a Plague Strider and maybe a 1st gen.

 judgedoug wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.

We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.

The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.

Kickstarter = hard plastic.

I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.

Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs

"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"

Mantic shouldn't use Kickstarter to fund hard plastic models
gets replaced by
Mantic shouldn't produce these gakky pvc restic models, where's the hard plastic

Are the jetbikes plastic or restic?