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As the title says..was CSM ever worth a fart in a wind sock? I play CSM and i enjoy the figs and the fluff, and the prison style sodomy when i play(most of the time) but it makes me curious and wonder if they were ever good?

From the release of their second 3rd edition codex to the release of their 4th edition codex they were very, very good. Not only a powerful army, but also with a lot of customization options.

The 4th ed. book could have just made some adjustments to turn them into a balanced, and not too powerful army, instead they removed tons of options and flavour. It was a butchery.

Even then, Eldar were better.

If they could make a 7th edition version of the 3.5 book, I'd be happy.


They would have to make it balanced. The book was an utter confusing mess, and parts of it were utterly useless.

 Korinov wrote:
From the release of their second 3rd edition codex to the release of their 4th edition codex they were very, very good. Not only a powerful army, but also with a lot of customization options.

They were obscenely powerful in that codex, with multiple top tier builds that could dominate.

Thank you for the replies, I got into csm initially back in the beginning of 6th and a complete 40k virgin. dumped them for other armys and after cutting my teeth i came back(i like the figs/fluff alot). I went with the khorne demonkin thinking hey you know it might make chaos decent, not saying its a bad codex but damn do i miss little things like havoks and chosen. I play in a 100% friendly not cut throat enviroment, so i'm juggling the idea of getting the normal CSM codex to quinch my thirst until they release a new codex? yay or nay?

When my group used to play 40k, it was pretty casual. Which is the only games that the codex can easily handle, it struggles against anyone running high power lists.

Plus, when you add additional things to it, such as IA13 and codex daemon allies, no one complains.

It's win win.

i'd like to run a night lords or death guard list, but both seem bleak in the fluffy department in 40k..and i'd have to start a meth lab to fund a 30k army

Crimson Heretic wrote:
As the title says..was CSM ever worth a fart in a wind sock? I play CSM and i enjoy the figs and the fluff, and the prison style sodomy when i play(most of the time) but it makes me curious and wonder if they were ever good?

Since jumping into 40k at the very start of 3rd edition, Chaos Marines have only had a single codex - the often praised 3.5 edition, that's been truly 'top tier'... Still, despite having some truly obnoxious or outright game-breaking lists, (Iron Warriors and Siren Daemon bomb), it still wasn't up to the levels of insanity that Codex: Craftworlds was, while Space Wolves and eventually Codex: Necrons were also pretty bad@$$ books back in those days.

The 4th edition book was an utter travesty. While it gave more freedom to build themed lists, (a big problem with 3.5 was how rigid the Legion/Cult rules were), it removed absolutely any flavour the army had.
And to top off the epic fail, we got saddled with moronic issues such as your units "forgetting" which God they worship mid-game because a dude with a stick died!

The 6th edition book overall was really good at what it had to do - namely, it introduced a whole slew of new units that were more than just 'Space Marines with spikes', as our codex had lost nearly a dozen units with the removal of all the Daemonic stuff into their own codex. Honestly, the only real dud were the Mutilators, which are simply a case of a lack of viable delivery system...
What the codex failed to do, and which has been the main reason Chaos Marines are lagging so far behind everyone else, is to expand our unit upgrade options... Our weaponry and our two main vehicles haven't changed in over 15 years! However, because GW needed to push the new units, (Warptalons, Forge/Maulerfiends, Helldrake, Mutilators), our basic model line yet again was passed over, and thus we've remained stuck in neutral with the same old tired, low rate of fire weaponry we've had since 3rd edition.



If our 7.5 codex needs to do anything, it's no.1 priority should focus on expanding our unit upgrades & our two main vehicles. When our 'best' rate of fire squad options are an Autocannon or Plasma gun, you know you have serious problems!

Third and fourth edition: Iron Warriors, Siren.

Crimson Heretic wrote:
As the title says..was CSM ever worth a fart in a wind sock? I play CSM and i enjoy the figs and the fluff, and the prison style sodomy when i play(most of the time) but it makes me curious and wonder if they were ever good?

In 6E they were pretty top tier if they spammed baleflamer Heldrakes, but that was it. With the 2007 4E book they could be fairly strong using Lash of Submissions shennanigans (forcing enemy units into clumps so Obliterators could shoot plasma cannons at them, or moving them toward your assault units).

With their 2002 3.5E book they had several different top tier builds and they've been paying for it ever since, and why they've largely only had gimmick builds since then. The 3.5E book had some pretty insane possibilities for the time. Armies composed entirely of infiltrating Plague Marines, Infiltrating Siren Princes (that couldn't be shot at and could get off a turn 1 charge, though the power was randomly rolled for every game), Iron Warriors could put out some pretty insane firepower, Word Bearers Daemonbomb armies, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
As the title says..was CSM ever worth a fart in a wind sock? I play CSM and i enjoy the figs and the fluff, and the prison style sodomy when i play(most of the time) but it makes me curious and wonder if they were ever good?

In 6E they were pretty top tier if they spammed baleflamer Heldrakes, but that was it. With the 2007 4E book they could be fairly strong using Lash of Submissions shennanigans (forcing enemy units into clumps so Obliterators could shoot plasma cannons at them, or moving them toward your assault units).

I forgot about the feared Fzorgle!

that book had maybe four good units, but they were really good. Two lash princes, a greater daemon, MSU plague marines, and nine oblits. Add suicide termies to taste, and enjoy!

Twin lash CSM was strong for a long time. Not sure if it could be called top tier, but was very good.

The 3.5codex was utterly broken in a number of ways, and dominated and ultimately destroyed fourth edition.

Read up about iron warriors. And siren prince.

I do not exaggerate - fifth ed grey knights would blush with shame in comparison to what they could do.

 Polonius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
As the title says..was CSM ever worth a fart in a wind sock? I play CSM and i enjoy the figs and the fluff, and the prison style sodomy when i play(most of the time) but it makes me curious and wonder if they were ever good?

In 6E they were pretty top tier if they spammed baleflamer Heldrakes, but that was it. With the 2007 4E book they could be fairly strong using Lash of Submissions shennanigans (forcing enemy units into clumps so Obliterators could shoot plasma cannons at them, or moving them toward your assault units).

I forgot about the feared Fzorgle!

that book had maybe four good units, but they were really good. Two lash princes, a greater daemon, MSU plague marines, and nine oblits. Add suicide termies to taste, and enjoy!

Yeah that was pretty much the cookie-cutter copypasta CSM build of the 2007 book

Deadnight wrote:
The 3.5codex was utterly broken in a number of ways, and dominated and ultimately destroyed fourth edition.

Read up about iron warriors. And siren prince.

I do not exaggerate - fifth ed grey knights would blush with shame in comparison to what they could do.

hrm, the book had powerful, even broken, options, but they weren't even the worst things possible in 4E

The best dex in 4th, I believe, was Eldar. Chaos was really good in 3.5, I started them around that time. They had a huge stable of viable builds, with 2 OP ones that made sure we'd never see such a great dex again.

Just face it GW will never make csm good bet our next codex makes us weaker than sisters

I like it when people say 3.5 CSM dex was broken when only 2 of the 9 proposed Sub factions/list was broken, and still no where near the level of Eldar broken for the time.

And even so Iron Warriors had for only brokness the fact that you sacrified AR choices for more Heavy Support( 2:1), and had no limitation on Oblits and had acces to 0-1 Vindicator( wich at the time CSM din't have acces to) and 0-1 Basilisk.

Excepte for the basilisk, with the 4th ed dex, we had ample acces to Vinids and Oblits wheren't 0-1 Choice anymore.

So they litterally din't change the thing that poeple called broken, but butchered the rest of the codex.

It doesn't matter whether or not the whole codex is broken. In a hyper-competitive scene, the non-competitive stuff simply won't be used as much except when absolutely necessary.

3rd edition, they were pretty awesome.

The biggest WTF moment of the 3.5 ed to 4th ed nerf, was that they took away eveything that made Chaos interesting and strong, then pretty much gave it all to the 4th ed. SM codex.

And yet none of the SM players thought their dex was OP.

Ah 3.5, the halcyon days when my noise marines beat the living snot out of a squad of terminators. Plus one initiative is not to be sniffed at.

The less said about my nigh on one thousand points plague marine suicide command squad the better! Tabled every game!

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I like it when people say 3.5 CSM dex was broken when only 2 of the 9 proposed Sub factions/list was broken, and still no where near the level of Eldar broken for the time.

And even so Iron Warriors had for only brokness the fact that you sacrified AR choices for more Heavy Support( 2:1), and had no limitation on Oblits and had acces to 0-1 Vindicator( wich at the time CSM din't have acces to) and 0-1 Basilisk.

Excepte for the basilisk, with the 4th ed dex, we had ample acces to Vinids and Oblits wheren't 0-1 Choice anymore.

So they litterally din't change the thing that poeple called broken, but butchered the rest of the codex.

But let us not forget, that with each subsequent edition, obliterators have become weaker and weaker.

First they lose a point of toughness and strength, then they lose the ability to repeated use the same weapon, then they lose fearless, next they'll probably lose a wound or something.

The fact that iron Warriors were so good, was because the 3.5 had a terrible fast attack slot. Iirc, (my codex is at home in its personal shrine) you could only have raptors with an unmarked Lord, and bikers were really really expensive, so losing an fa slot didn't matter.

Now that i'm thinking about the posts from past editions, i feel like i bought that codex as a young teenager in hopes of one day playing 40k, i remeber the page where it let you run word bearers, night lords, iron warriors...and i thought black legion? See if they somehow took the current marine codex(all the chapters and so fourth) and turned it into chaos, i think it would be fantastic. The current codex just lacks any form of synergy, basically it allows you to form a rag tag warband with flee market weapon upgrades. I want the perks for running a word bearer detachment, hell a "build your own traitor legion" template would be great.

Triple Heldrake was pretty brutal when it first came out. Granted, it was only good because Baledrakes were crazy, but still...

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned 2nd Edition yet. They were pretty amazing back then, too.

When Heldrakes 1st came out, they could poop out fire... 3 of them could fly in a square around the board, vector striking and flaming everything.

 welshhoppo wrote:



But let us not forget, that with each subsequent edition, obliterators have become weaker and weaker.

First they lose a point of toughness and strength, then they lose the ability to repeated use the same weapon, then they lose fearless, next they'll probably lose a wound or something.

The fact that iron Warriors were so good, was because the 3.5 had a terrible fast attack slot. Iirc, (my codex is at home in its personal shrine) you could only have raptors with an unmarked Lord, and bikers were really really expensive, so losing an fa slot didn't matter.

Yeah FA was composed of Flesh Hounds, Bikers, Raptors, Gargoyles.

While bikes where something like 28ppm and then you would add the Marks/Vets skills, they where , with White Scars, the only ones in the game to have +1A because of the spikes and could reroll 1 To Hit dice( ornemental spikes, same as Chaos termies), since in 3Rd Ed bikers could only use 1 hand for a weapon, and the other one was for steering.

But then again rules where different, example raptors had a Deamonic aura 5++ save and Deamonic Visage wich imposed a -1 LD to ennemy models and Hit and Run, Hounds where pretty much the same except for the Wounds, they had to be summoned but could still assault in the turn they DSed and the Collars was a 2+ deny the witch and ignore ID made by force weapons, wich made them the bane of Psyklers and particularly Eldars Counsil.

the really gakky ones even though they where cheap as dirt, where gargoyles.

Chaos bikers were more points, but then again, everything was more points back then. At least with chaos bikers you got +1 attack for the spikes and blades and with an application of vet skills get some fun bonuses.

I loved skilled rider on my bikers. It seemed to always catch people by surprise when my bikes just blindly charged through terrain. All though it didn't take many games before I changed out all my plasma guns to melta guns simply because losing a 30+ point model due to gets hot sucks rocks. Back in fourth edition weapons with get hot; get hot on a 1, 2, or 3 depending on how many shots it fired.

CSM were insane in 2nd. There were the only codex that could beat Tyranids other than Eldar. The CSM 2nd ed codex actually makes the 3.5 codex look like a pauper codex.

While 2nd ed & a brief spell for a few years during the height of late 3rd edition had CSM's among the game's best armies, we've been at best shoehorned since the Loyalist's 4th ed codex which effectively gave them all the best elements of our 3.5 codex through the Chapter Traits system.

For the most part though, Chaos Marines have been bottom feeding crap since 2007, unless you decided to run "The List."