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Can independent characters join Skyhammer units?

If they do, can they be dragged into assault by the Assault Matines on the turn they drop?

It never really got resolved in the last thread

 Kholzerino wrote:
Can independent characters join Skyhammer units?

Provided they are Battle Brothers. Why would you think otherwise?

 Kholzerino wrote:
If they do, can they be dragged into assault by the Assault Matines on the turn they drop?

No. Independent Characters are never dragged in to anything by the unit they are joined to. They are as much willing participants in whatever actions the unit takes as any model in the unit that was there at purchase.

But if you mean could they Charge with the Assault Squad: The IC is part of the Assault Squad. The Assault Squad is given permission as a unit to Charge after arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore, the IC can and is charging with the Assault Squad.

I am with Frozocrone in this one.

Talk to you opponent before starting the game.

No, an IC cannot join a Skyhammer Annihilation Force under any circumstances. There is no slot within the detachment to accommodate an IC like there is in a Demi Battle Company. Detachments do not operate like a CAD, you only get what is listed in the Detachment composition.

'Join', as in joining an Independent Character to a unit in reserve. No one said anything about taking an Independent Character as a part of the formation.

Yay, this one again!

RAW makes it legal, regardless of how much it can be exploited.

SJ

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
No, an IC cannot join a Skyhammer Annihilation Force under any circumstances. There is no slot within the detachment to accommodate an IC like there is in a Demi Battle Company. Detachments do not operate like a CAD, you only get what is listed in the Detachment composition.

The OP did say join the units, not the Formation...

And unless they are Formations, detachments DO act like CADs.

Charistoph wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
No, an IC cannot join a Skyhammer Annihilation Force under any circumstances. There is no slot within the detachment to accommodate an IC like there is in a Demi Battle Company. Detachments do not operate like a CAD, you only get what is listed in the Detachment composition.

The OP did say join the units, not the Formation...

And unless they are Formations, detachments DO act like CADs.

Formations are "Formation Detachments"

Wallur wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
No, an IC cannot join a Skyhammer Annihilation Force under any circumstances. There is no slot within the detachment to accommodate an IC like there is in a Demi Battle Company. Detachments do not operate like a CAD, you only get what is listed in the Detachment composition.

The OP did say join the units, not the Formation...

And unless they are Formations, detachments DO act like CADs.

Formations are "Formation Detachments"

And your point?

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
No, an IC cannot join a Skyhammer Annihilation Force under any circumstances. There is no slot within the detachment to accommodate an IC like there is in a Demi Battle Company. Detachments do not operate like a CAD, you only get what is listed in the Detachment composition.

True you can't purchase an IC as part of the formation, but you can always have a separate CAD, demi-company or allied detachment in addition to the formation, and since they are battle brothers you can join an allied IC in to a unit from the formation during reserves step.

Yes they can join and yes they can assault. So put Calgar and Belial in there if you want and DS with no scatter then assault. Skyhammer is fun, not civilised, but fun.

In all honesty the way I interpret the formation rules and ics is as follows.

The formation specifically grants special rules used by the units inside it that trigger at the start of the game.

If you add a unit without the special rules from the formation then all the models in that unit lose the rule because the formations rule is not transfered to the ic.

If it was a decurion style detachment where all formations gain each others rules then yes it could work given the ic is a member of the core formation or a sub one.

You could still take the ic with the unit while in reserves but that unit would then lose the formation bonuses.

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty the way I interpret the formation rules and ics is as follows.

The formation specifically grants special rules used by the units inside it that trigger at the start of the game.

If you add a unit without the special rules from the formation then all the models in that unit lose the rule because the formations rule is not transfered to the ic.

If it was a decurion style detachment where all formations gain each others rules then yes it could work given the ic is a member of the core formation or a sub one.

You could still take the ic with the unit while in reserves but that unit would then lose the formation bonuses.

So, if a Formation grants Stubborn to a unit, the unit loses Stubborn if an IC joins it? Can you demonstrate where it states that (aside from scope) there is any difference between a Special Rule granted by a Formation's Datasheet and a Unit's Datasheet?

To my knowledge, there is no difference between a Datasheet Special Rule and a Universal Special Rule. There is no difference between a unit gaining a Special Rule from its own Datasheet, a Formation's Datasheet, or a Detachment's Command Benefits.

In order for units of a Formation to actually lose its rules, they would have to violate the unit lists and restrictions of the Formation's Datasheet.

And no, the Decurion does not grant all its Formations' rules to all the other Formations, they just get to keep their own and add the Decurion's Command Benefits on top of it.

 Konrax wrote:

If you add a unit without the special rules from the formation then all the models in that unit lose the rule because the formations rule is not transfered to the ic.

So what you're saying is that if I join a Librarian from a Librarium Conclave to a Tactical Squad from a Combined Arms Detachment the Tactical Squad loses the Objective Secured rule?

For what it's worth, there was a recent ITC FAQ release that forbids independent characters benefiting from the skyhammer formation special rules.

So, the biggest tournament organizers and best players agree that it's not allowed, and I personally find their FAQs both reasonable, balanced, and a good guideline for questions that GW is unwilling to address.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For what it's worth, there was a recent ITC FAQ release that forbids independent characters benefiting from the skyhammer formation special rules.

So, the biggest tournament organizers and best players agree that it's not allowed, and I personally find their FAQs both reasonable, balanced, and a good guideline for questions that GW is unwilling to address.

And that's good for ITC's House Rules.

Should we forbid Destroyer Lords from Destroyer Cults granting Preferred Enemy to Deathmarks next?

Charistoph wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For what it's worth, there was a recent ITC FAQ release that forbids independent characters benefiting from the skyhammer formation special rules.

So, the biggest tournament organizers and best players agree that it's not allowed, and I personally find their FAQs both reasonable, balanced, and a good guideline for questions that GW is unwilling to address.

And that's good for ITC's House Rules.

Should we forbid Destroyer Lords from Destroyer Cults granting Preferred Enemy to Deathmarks next?

I'll admit that I haven't memorized the thing, but I quick ctrl+F of the document and a scan of the necron addenda didn't seem to prohibit destroyer lords granting PE to a joined unit of deathmarks.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub

Moreover, I can't imagine under what basis that could be argued, though I am unfamiliar with the specific rules of the destroyer cult, according to the BRB, if one model has PE, the unit benefits - therefore a destroyer lord should allow PE to a joined unit of deathmarks.

And it's not entirely fair to call this 'house rules' - unless I'm mistaken, these are the rules that the largest professional US tournaments agree to follow, not just whatever your friends like to play with.

They are house rules really. Case in point is Swooping FMC's being immune to Blasts like Zooming Flyers whereas the rulebook seperates the two.

And yes, PE confers to the unit. Personally I think the IC can assault with the unit. Fair? I'm yet to actually play test against it socan't say for sure but in all the battle reports I seen, it's not that overpowered.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'll admit that I haven't memorized the thing, but I quick ctrl+F of the document and a scan of the necron addenda didn't seem to prohibit that rule.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub

Moreover, I can't imagine under what basis that could be argued, though I am unfamiliar with the specific rules of the destroyer cult, according to the BRB, if one model has PE, the unit benefits - therefore a destroyer lord should allow PE to a joined unit of deathmarks.

I was being sarcastic and trying to make a point at the same time. House Rules are as much for a personal/group sense of balancing as much as for clarity. ITCs ruling only affect ITC games. To apply them anywhere else is as pointless as using NFL rules for an NCAA game, or using the World Cup's rules for a local kids club.

Being a Formation Special Rule doesn't change the standards by which it is determined whether a Special Rule possessed by a unit affects an Independent Character joined to the unit. Specifically, the Skyhammer Formation's Special Rules only provide benefits to or affect units. These specific rules do not require possession of the rule in order to affect the model like Counter-Attack does. These specific rules do not require all members to have it like Deep Strike and Fleet do. They only require the units be part of the Formation, and the Independent Characters count as being part of the units they join. Simple.

RAW its legal to do so, plenty of other formations like the SW one specify that only IC's from the formation benefit, while this one does not.


BUT! its pretty OP the shenanigans you can do with this... most will house rule that you cannot, and the ITC houserules mirror this by not allowing it.


hope that helps

Charistoph wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In all honesty the way I interpret the formation rules and ics is as follows.

The formation specifically grants special rules used by the units inside it that trigger at the start of the game.

If you add a unit without the special rules from the formation then all the models in that unit lose the rule because the formations rule is not transfered to the ic.

If it was a decurion style detachment where all formations gain each others rules then yes it could work given the ic is a member of the core formation or a sub one.

You could still take the ic with the unit while in reserves but that unit would then lose the formation bonuses.

So, if a Formation grants Stubborn to a unit, the unit loses Stubborn if an IC joins it? Can you demonstrate where it states that (aside from scope) there is any difference between a Special Rule granted by a Formation's Datasheet and a Unit's Datasheet?

To my knowledge, there is no difference between a Datasheet Special Rule and a Universal Special Rule. There is no difference between a unit gaining a Special Rule from its own Datasheet, a Formation's Datasheet, or a Detachment's Command Benefits.

In order for units of a Formation to actually lose its rules, they would have to violate the unit lists and restrictions of the Formation's Datasheet.

And no, the Decurion does not grant all its Formations' rules to all the other Formations, they just get to keep their own and add the Decurion's Command Benefits on top of it.

Stubborn and objective secured ect don't fundamentally change the way in which the model moves and interacts on the table.

Just because you put a librian on bike with a terminator squad doesn't mean it can deep strike now.

Same with an ic with jump pack joining a marine squad, they don't get to reroll charges now just because one guy has a jump pack.

Rules that only a single model / character needs to give it to the entire unit they join specifically say only one model needs it.

The formation has specific rules for how the units can deploy from reserves and what they can do after, and makes no mention to these rules applying to any other unit that joins.

Based on the assumption that it doesn't blanket grant the rules to another character that joins, if a model joins without that rule you need to default to the standard deployment options granted by that character and not the formation.

You could say mix Belial in for the no scatter deep strike but he has no rule that guarantees he can come in on any particular turn or assault after deep striking...

Because these rules only apply to the units mentioned in the formation, and that it doesn't specifically say that the rules apply to any independent characters that join the unit would also gain it, I would say it is a no.

Like I said earlier abilities that transfer to the squad and vice versa specifically say it only requires a single model with this rule for the unit to perform x.

Edit: Charistof is the use of the word formation in this instance a noun or verb? As it will completely change the interpretation of nothing at all

Konrax - check when the units are grants the rule. Is the IC a member of the unit at that point?

Pretty sure his point was that you can't make a blanket restriction on one thing without effecting other things the work on the same mechanic. Saying the an IC joining a Skyhammer Assault Squad will cause the squad to lose their formation benefits would mean that an ObSec unit woukd lose ObSec if an IC joins them. Having one breaks the other. Or, you can just follow the rules as written snd see that it is legal regardless on whether or not you want it to be legal.

SJ

How exactly do people get around this rule from the BRB when they argue that the Skyhammer formation benefits should be treated as a special rule?

"Independent Character, Special Rules wrote:When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

So any special rule must have the "When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" disclaimer, otherwise it will not be transferred to and from joined ICs, or am I missing something here?

Does the Relentless USR spread to ICs joined to a Skyhammer Dev Squad, too, then? I mean it is granted in exactly the same way, same wording and everything.

The unit doesn't have the rule until after the IC joins. Seriously, have you read the rule and understood the timing here?

nekooni wrote:
So any special rule must have the "When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" disclaimer, otherwise it will not be transferred to and from joined ICs, or am I missing something here?

You're looking at the wrong part of Stubborn. We're told to look to Stubborn to show an example of where a rule says it benefits joined Independent Characters. Accordingly we have to look at who Stubborn benefits, and we're left with it benefiting "the unit".

At least one model in the unit having the rule is the condition for the rule (in the same way a rule may require a unit to fail a leadership test, or take an unsaved wound, or any other requirement) rather than explanatory of who benefits.

It in fact seems to me to be actually separating special rules that apply to a unit from special rules that apply only to models with the rule.

Hope this explains why it works:

Premise 1: The unit is the assault squad from the formation when the IC is not attached.
Premise 2: Whilst attached the IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes.

Conclusion 1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.

Premise C1: When the IC is attached the unit is the assault squad from the formation for all rules purposes.
Premise 3: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad from the formation can assault.

Conclusion 2: When they arrive from deep strike reserve the assault squad with IC attached can assault.

All 3 premises are lifted exactly from the rules so you will struggle to disprove any. So with that in mind this works unless you have a specific restriction against it.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

nekooni wrote:
So any special rule must have the "When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" disclaimer, otherwise it will not be transferred to and from joined ICs, or am I missing something here?

You're looking at the wrong part of Stubborn. We're told to look to Stubborn to show an example of where a rule says it benefits joined Independent Characters. Accordingly we have to look at who Stubborn benefits, and we're left with it benefiting "the unit".

At least one model in the unit having the rule is the condition for the rule (in the same way a rule may require a unit to fail a leadership test, or take an unsaved wound, or any other requirement) rather than explanatory of who benefits.

It in fact seems to me to be actually separating special rules that apply to a unit from special rules that apply only to models with the rule.

But all rules that only require one model in the unit to have the rule also state that as part of the rule. Which the Special Rules of the Skyhammer do not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit doesn't have the rule until after the IC joins. Seriously, have you read the rule and understood the timing here?

There's no need for that kind of tone, mate.

People argued with the Special Rules rules and logic, I simply questioned their reasoning. Yes, I've read the rule, which is why I was wondering why people are arguing that the IC in some way gains a "Special Rule" from joining the squads.

My personal opinion is that yes, you may join an IC to any unit of a Skyhammer, and it becomes part of the unit. The unit in its entirety is granted either the Relentless rule (applying to all models in appropriate units including ICs) or is given special permission to charge despite just having entered play via deep strike - this is done by the formations special rule and has nothing to do with how special rules are transfered from and to ICs. The only relevant rule here is this:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules
purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Therefore, when the Special Rule First the Fire, then the Blade targets the unit on Turn 1, the IC is also affected. Just like it would be from, lets say, Misfortune or Forewarning.

Is that alright with you, nosferatu?

the issue with the rules for this formation, and likely the reason ITC ruled that they do not carry over...

is that they are not unit rules. the rules for some reason, state they affect the squad. The squad being the models purchased from the datasheet "assault squad" since that is an "assault squad"

unfortunately squad =/= unit as unit has a specific meaning, and squad references a datasheet and the models you can get from it, not the the tabletop unit.

yeah argue blah blah, but the rule no where says the unit is affected. Not sure how its a unit rule in some peoples minds, if it does not affect the unit....

I am sure the people making the ITC faq also noticed that the rules are not specified as affecting the unit.