All terminator forces?

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**ServiceGames**

Dark Angels Deathwing Redemption Force could work very well for you. All Deathwing (Terminators, Knights, Venerable Dreadnought, etc.).

Just my $0.02

SG

**jeffersonian000**

vipoid wrote:
Why not just make everything in the game WS10 BS10 S10 T10 W10 etc. with a 2+/2+ save (both rerollable) and FNP (2+) (also rerollable)?

Not everyone wants to play Eldar.

SJ

**Lanlaorn**

Don't be stupid. A valid alternative to "nerf the entire rest of the game" as you're proposing is to just buff this unit to the point where it's still elite against modern enemies.

And guess which one is more practical to do.

That said, an invulnerable save isn't going to do it, they're still going to die to bolters disproportionately relative to their price. Making Terminators more survival will most likely mean higher toughness and FNP.

**vipoid**

Lanlaorn wrote:
Don't be stupid. A valid alternative to "nerf the entire rest of the game" as you're proposing is to just buff this unit to the point where it's still elite against modern enemies.

And guess which one is more practical to do.

That said, an invulnerable save isn't going to do it, they're still going to die to bolters disproportionately relative to their price. Making Terminators more survival will most likely mean higher toughness and FNP.

So, if we're hell-bent on idiotic escalation, can guardsmen have S5 AP2 guns?

**Lanlaorn**

vipoid wrote:
Lanlaorn wrote:
Don't be stupid. A valid alternative to "nerf the entire rest of the game" as you're proposing is to just buff this unit to the point where it's still elite against modern enemies.

And guess which one is more practical to do.

That said, an invulnerable save isn't going to do it, they're still going to die to bolters disproportionately relative to their price. Making Terminators more survival will most likely mean higher toughness and FNP.

So, if we're hell-bent on idiotic escalation, can guardsmen have S5 AP2 guns?

They already have BS 4 S7 AP2 guns so...?

It's not escalation when you're improving units that have been left behind to the new standard. Eldar example: the new Jetbikes are escalation, the new Banshees are not.

As it stands right now, Plague Marines are tougher than Terminators with their T5 3+, 5+ FNP, it would be a perfectly reasonable buff to make Terminators better against small arms fire to give them T5, 5+ FNP and still leave them as a bad unit because AP2 is everywhere.

There's so much room for improvement here that it's pretty ridiculous to call it escalation.

**vipoid**

Lanlaorn wrote:

They already have BS 4 S7 AP2 guns so...?

I meant instead of lasguns.

Lanlaorn wrote:

It's not escalation when you're improving units that have been left behind to the new standard. .

That's exactly what escalation is. Especially when the 'new standard' is inevitably overpowered.

Lanlaorn wrote:

As it stands right now, Plague Marines are tougher than Terminators with their T5 3+, 5+ FNP, it would be a perfectly reasonable buff to make Terminators better against small arms fire to give them T5, 5+ FNP and still leave them as a bad unit because AP2 is everywhere.

Why? Why not just scale back the AP2? And remove artificer armour so that units can't have all the advantages of a 2+ save, with none of the drawbacks of terminator armour.

Also, I love how one of the main complaints from marine players is that the bolter is terrilbe... and yet their proposed solutions to terminators is to make the bolters even more useless. Ingenious.

**Martel732**

Col. Dash wrote:
Power Armor in 2nd did its job. It allowed weapons whose purpose was piercing light AV and body armor(which power armor is) to actually realisitically pierce light armor. Lasguns had as much difficulty piercing it then as they do now. Autocannons had a better chance of piercing it(but not completely) and completely ignored lighter forms of armor, as they are supposed to being a light anti-armor weapon. Terminators all but shrugged them off as they would lasguns and splinter weapons but get a bit more worried(not greatly though) by bigger Anti-armor weapons like krak missiles and melta-guns, actually they get really worried by melta guns if I remember right. Seem to remember my 275 odd point 2+ on 2d6 Khorne lord getting waxed by a lowly guardsman with a melta gun one game before he had a chance to charge.

Fixed non-field saves are stupid. Armor save modifiers are the way to go forward. Even multi-wound weapons are a step forward(fail an armor save from certain weapons and take d3 or d6 wounds on that model, etc)

No, it really didn't. Power armor was awful in 2nd. Every Eldar schmuck had a -2 armor save gun, as did all the noise marines. Genestealers hand to hand attacks carried a -3 armor save penalty. Marines might as well have been naked in 2nd.

**Col. Dash**

Body armor is not supposed to be impenetrable. Those same elder you mention rarely had better than a 4+ and guardsmen still had a 5+. Armor piercing weapons should have a better but not automatic chance of punching through power armor. It was a superior system to what we have now where a giant Q-Tip has the same combat characteristics as a chainsaw blade. Having armor saves modifiers was and is a much superior system than the silly AP system that is either save or no save.

Genestealers in close combat are supposed to be able to wipe the floor with marines and carve through their armor. Do you not remember 3rd edition where genestealers weapons were power weapons and auto killed marines and terminators if they wounded.

**Martel732**

Col. Dash wrote:
Body armor is not supposed to be impenetrable. Those same elder you mention rarely had better than a 4+ and guardsmen still had a 5+. Armor piercing weapons should have a better but not automatic chance of punching through power armor. It was a superior system to what we have now where a giant Q-Tip has the same combat characteristics as a chainsaw blade. Having armor saves modifiers was and is a much superior system than the silly AP system that is either save or no save.

Genestealers in close combat are supposed to be able to wipe the floor with marines and carve through their armor. Do you not remember 3rd edition where genestealers weapons were power weapons and auto killed marines and terminators if they wounded.

Until they got nerfed down to rending claws.

I agree armor save modifiers would be good with a D12 or D20, but not a stupid D6.

Said Eldar never got shot by marines because there were no marines left at the end of their turn.

**vipoid**

Col. Dash wrote:
It was a superior system to what we have now where a giant Q-Tip has the same combat characteristics as a chainsaw blade.

A little off topic, but I'd like to see models get some kind of bonus for using a CCW.

It just seems wrong to me that a Bolt Pistol is exactly as effective in melee as a Chainsword, but can also shoot.

**blaktoof**

vipoid wrote:
Col. Dash wrote:
It was a superior system to what we have now where a giant Q-Tip has the same combat characteristics as a chainsaw blade.

A little off topic, but I'd like to see models get some kind of bonus for using a CCW.

It just seems wrong to me that a Bolt Pistol is exactly as effective in melee as a Chainsword, but can also shoot.

I agree with you, I think most CCWs, Choppa/chainsword/sword/axe/etc should be at least +1 str. I can understand you can slap someone with your metal bolt pistol etc, but it is not designed for close combat, making something that is designed for close combat hit just as hard is silly. I think striking scorpions get a +1 str chainsword or some such, but nobody else.

anyways.

all terminator army.

At this point every marine codex has an option to field an all terminator army, it comes down to if you want DS on first turn or not pretty much. If you do the options because tighter. GK, DA, and if your playing 3k+ pts you can do first turn BA terminator DS with the archangels formation, I think you have to take something crazy like 10 squads of terminators/dreads to do run it if you don't want to use power armor.

**raiden**

Vanilla marines, extremist threat /w/e its called, 3 term squads with preferred enemy on one unit :p