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It should be noted that the Eye of Terror is not, in fact, the "home turf" of Chaos. That would be the Warp. The Eye is simply an area (a very, very large area) where realspace and the Warp intersect, and where the physical laws of Reality give way to the dream-shaping properties of the Warp.
This is why Daemon Worlds and such exist within the Eye, but not wholly within the Warp. The planet was, originally, some spatial body that once belonged to the Eldar. Then the Eye exploded and covered it with Warp-stuff, corrupting it. Some worlds are then dragged fully into the Warp and get even more fethed up.
Even if the Emperor sends flaming angels to scour them clean... so what? It's the Eye. It's the Warp. Just as with Draigo, Chaos just wills it all back into place again, as if nothing ever happened.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
On a semi-off topic note i was wondering, as everyone's comparing strength and whatnot, how exactly would one go about killing a god. any god really, be it ork chaos or even emps. some of the eldar gods have died so it must be possible
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/25 03:44:40
The Imperium stands on the honour of silent men
- Motto of the Ordos Obscures
Basically destroy whatever its source of power is. Some gods are far more particular than others, being restricted to specific species or concepts or the like that don't have much traction in the wider galaxy. The reason the Great Four are so powerful is because they are gods of near-universal concepts that transcend most species.
Khorne, god of bloodshed, warfare, and violence, is very obviously drawing from the state of the galaxy. Pleasure? Just about everything in the galaxy recognizes pleasure, and almost all societies have things they consider perversion and vice. Disease... well, almost everything gets sick. Change? Almost every living creature dreams of a better life, of changing the status quo, has ambitions and drives...
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The Emperor-as-Man and the Emperor-as-Warp-God might not be the same person.
Right now the Emperor of Man is essentially the 5th and most powerful chaos God (trumping even Gork and Mork who combined beat out Khorne as he single-handedly hold back the main 4 by himself)
This is of course the Emperor after he removed compassion from himself (which likely also exists in the warp as a separate entity) and can be considered to be a completely different being from the man who fought the Great Crusades.
At least thats how I've heard it.
Citation needed.
Seriously guys, where's the proof that the Emperor in the Warp is stronger than the big 4? If he is, then we must conclude he gives far less of a crap about his followers than the Chaos Gods, because he interferes far less in mortal affairs. We have very few examples of him getting off his lazy golden butt to do anything.
He probably sent a big warp storm to wipe out Vandire's fleet. That was 4000 years ago. There have been a few other incidences of warp storms like this, but they're few and far between. Burden of Proof is on you, plus it doesn't help your position either when all the modern BRB's I can think of mention that the Emperor is all that is holding back Chaos from devouring the Universe. Were Chaos stronger than the Emperor... well there wouldn't even be a fight to begin with.
Living Saints are the closest thing to Daemon Princes for the Emperor. They're much rarer than Daemon Princes, and not particularly more powerful.
If LoTD are considered his other daemons, they're once again much fewer in number. Also, they were probably a result of gene tampering in the Cursed Founding, meaning the Emperor didn't even use his own power to create his daemons.
Warp storms and Living Saints are the ONLY direct evidence that all that Emperor worship is doing anything in the Warp at all. And the first could even be written off as coincidences since the Warp is random, or Tzeentch pulling some convoluted scheme. Heck, the Living Saints could ALSO be some scheme from Tzeentch.
The Chaos Gods also spend more time fighting each other than they spend united. They're not all facing off against the Emperor together and failing to beat him. Oh, and by the way, the Emp surviving as a vegetable and an oppressive theocracy spreading across the galaxy in his name is the best thing that could have happened for Chaos. He didn't pull one over on the gods. The Horus Heresy went exactly the way it was supposed to go.
So if the Emperor is really so uber powerful, why hasn't he curb stomped the Chaos gods while they're divided? Why doesn't he help his side out more? Sorry, I'm not buying it. This thread is a pitiful attempt at Imperial propaganda, nothing more.
Because he is powering the astronomicum and his personality is fractured. He cannot defeat them utterly because he himself is not 'complete'
Again, he has a lot of help with the astronomican. 1000 psykers a day of help. And the Chaos gods seem perfectly capable of sending their followers through the warp to where they want them, when they're in the mood. The Chaos gods' personalities could also be considered "fractured" since they don't behave logically. Tzeentch schemes against himself. Nurgle gets over zealous with plagues, wiping out life and causing him to lose the power he's gained. Khorne urges his followers to be so filled with rage that it hinders them on the battlefield. Slaanesh can get so caught up in self-indulgence that he/she lets victory slip away. And the Emperor being "not complete" sounds the opposite of powerful. Even if he became complete, like Slaanesh, that doesn't mean he would dominate for long. Slaanesh was top dog of Chaos for a brief period after being born, then got knocked down several rungs. And even at peak power, Slaanesh failed to really lay a beatdown on any of the other gods. Khorne, for example, stopped Slaanesh from completely destroying Kaine. Nurgle saved Isha from Slaanesh. Despite being canonically the most powerful at the time, Slaanesh wasn't strong enough to kill or thwart either god.
Also you have absolutely no proof that the LoTD is a result of gene-tampering. To say that its the most likely cause is misleading.
LotD are suggested numerous times to be the Fire Hawks, who were lost in the Warp. The Fire Hawks are from the Cursed 21st Founding. Every chapter in the 21st founding had their gene seed altered and "improved" upon, with all kinds of unexpected consequences.
Now show me the links to sources that support an alternate theory.
Even if the LoTD are NOT the Emperor's version of daemons, there are also golden faced creatures that patrol the eye of terror.
Source please. The only golden faced, Emperor serving daemon creatures I can think of are from Warhammer 50k, which is fanfiction.
The Legion of the Damned being the Fire Hawks is old, outdated fluff. The Codex shoots that down considering the Legion appeared before the Fire Hawks vanished, and a strange gene mutation does not result in one becoming a legion of immortal ghost warriors that cannot die. Plus they're probably more numerous than the Fire Hawks supposed survivors, and the Astronomicon is mentioned as creating legions of angels of fire that purge entire planets of life in the Eye of Terror.
Oh, and even the Lexicanum isn't a source. A source is actually quoting material from source material, not a second party that cannot be verified.
Hey now. EVERYTHING in those Lexicanum articles has a canon source in the footnotes. It's a lot easier to just link to those articles than to type out a dozen sources, many of which you might not even be able to look up because they're print sources.
As for the Astronomican oozing out legions of angels that regularly pwn entire daemon worlds with ease... holy . That is such crappy, Kaldor Drago-carving-his-initials-into-Mortarian's-heart-and-then-doing-a-sick-360-off-a-Bloodthirster-with-his-wicked-radical-Emperor's-Holy-Skateboard level ing level fluff. I'm not saying it's not real. I'm just saying it sucks. That completely undermines Chaos as a serious threat. What is that from? Is it a Ward thing? It's a Ward thing, isn't it?
Nope, it's from Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Talon of Horus novel. Honestly, I found it to be quite interesting as it shows the aspect of the Emperor's might in having actual physical tangibility in his attempts to ward off Chaos from the physical realm. In what way does it downplay Chaos' threat?
Imagine if some enemy of the Imperium broke into the Imperial palace, smacked the Emperor in the face, and got clean away, laughing about it the whole time. Now imagine this happened repeatedly, and the Imperial forces failed to do anything about it. The Eye of Terror is Chaos's home turf. It's where the majority of Chaos Space Marines live. It's home to countless daemons. The Chaos gods bend reality itself there. It's the place in real-space where Chaos is the absolute STRONGEST. It's the closest thing they have to a home base. A bunch of flaming angels running around exterminatusing planets in the Eye with nothing stopping them is as much an insult to Chaos as someone regularly sucker-punching through the defenses of Holy Terra with laughable ease would be to the Imperium. It makes the faction look wimpy and ineffectual. Why be afraid of Chaos if angels from the Astronomican can nuke planets at will in the one place in the universe where Chaos is mightiest?
Aaron Dembski-Bowden has written some good stuff, but I really wish he hadn't done this.
Do you have any idea the sheer size of the Eye of Terror? The thing is thousands of LIghtyears in diameter, with thousands and thousands of Daemon worlds. Burning a couple hundred to the ground... That's nothing; that's the same as burning a couple hundred Imperial worlds, especially since the worlds are just gonna regen as soon as the Angels of Fire leave them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emperor Pigeon wrote: On a semi-off topic note i was wondering, as everyone's comparing strength and whatnot, how exactly would one go about killing a god. any god really, be it ork chaos or even emps. some of the eldar gods have died so it must be possible
Weaken it sufficiently to be capable of consuming it (see: Birth of Slaanesh). For entities such as the Gods of Chaos, you need to convert their followers to worshiping you, then consume the Chaos God once you have more central power than it, which is something that will take tens of millenia of religious warfare, both in the literal and figurative sense of the term.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/25 08:48:45
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
That whole the emperor is a god nonsense is pure propaganda. The emperor is nothing more then a glorified psychic light tower fed by the souls of thousands of psykers and controlled by the administratum.
The power of a light tower can be approximated once you know the distance it is still visible from. If we know the exact distance we could calculate a good approximation of the emperors wattage .
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
Just a quick clarification of the OP, where you listed Nurgle as second in power.
Nurgle is actually the God with the most varied power level, which waxes and wanes depending on the level of death, disease, and despair in the Galaxy at any one time. He goes from the most powerful to the weakest depending on circumstance, and therefore doesn't really fit into the same hierarchy that the other Gods do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The main problem with trying to quantify the Emperor's power by the same standards as the Chaos Gods is that if he is fuelled by emotion too, then you have the problematic issue over overlap with Tzeentch.
People pray to the Emperor for salvation, yet Tzeentch is fuelled by hope. So who gets that emotion? Is it like a letter that arrives at the correct address? If it's got the Emperor's name on it, he gets it? What about generic, or Xenos hope? Do they scrap over it, or does Tzeentch have dibs on that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/26 03:02:19
People pray to the Emperor for salvation, yet Tzeentch is fuelled by hope. So who gets that emotion? Is it like a letter that arrives at the correct address? If it's got the Emperor's name on it, he gets it? What about generic, or Xenos hope? Do they scrap over it, or does Tzeentch have dibs on that?
It is precisely like a letter getting sent to the correct address. The energy, being almost wholelly dedicated to a concept, will coalesce with energies dedicated to the same, or a similar, concept (in this case being the God-Emperor).
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Psienesis wrote: The Emperor-as-Man and the Emperor-as-Warp-God might not be the same person.
Right now the Emperor of Man is essentially the 5th and most powerful chaos God (trumping even Gork and Mork who combined beat out Khorne as he single-handedly hold back the main 4 by himself)
This is of course the Emperor after he removed compassion from himself (which likely also exists in the warp as a separate entity) and can be considered to be a completely different being from the man who fought the Great Crusades.
At least thats how I've heard it.
Citation needed.
Seriously guys, where's the proof that the Emperor in the Warp is stronger than the big 4? If he is, then we must conclude he gives far less of a crap about his followers than the Chaos Gods, because he interferes far less in mortal affairs. We have very few examples of him getting off his lazy golden butt to do anything.
He probably sent a big warp storm to wipe out Vandire's fleet. That was 4000 years ago. There have been a few other incidences of warp storms like this, but they're few and far between. Burden of Proof is on you, plus it doesn't help your position either when all the modern BRB's I can think of mention that the Emperor is all that is holding back Chaos from devouring the Universe. Were Chaos stronger than the Emperor... well there wouldn't even be a fight to begin with.
Living Saints are the closest thing to Daemon Princes for the Emperor. They're much rarer than Daemon Princes, and not particularly more powerful.
If LoTD are considered his other daemons, they're once again much fewer in number. Also, they were probably a result of gene tampering in the Cursed Founding, meaning the Emperor didn't even use his own power to create his daemons.
Warp storms and Living Saints are the ONLY direct evidence that all that Emperor worship is doing anything in the Warp at all. And the first could even be written off as coincidences since the Warp is random, or Tzeentch pulling some convoluted scheme. Heck, the Living Saints could ALSO be some scheme from Tzeentch.
The Chaos Gods also spend more time fighting each other than they spend united. They're not all facing off against the Emperor together and failing to beat him. Oh, and by the way, the Emp surviving as a vegetable and an oppressive theocracy spreading across the galaxy in his name is the best thing that could have happened for Chaos. He didn't pull one over on the gods. The Horus Heresy went exactly the way it was supposed to go.
So if the Emperor is really so uber powerful, why hasn't he curb stomped the Chaos gods while they're divided? Why doesn't he help his side out more? Sorry, I'm not buying it. This thread is a pitiful attempt at Imperial propaganda, nothing more.
Because he is powering the astronomicum and his personality is fractured. He cannot defeat them utterly because he himself is not 'complete'
Again, he has a lot of help with the astronomican. 1000 psykers a day of help. And the Chaos gods seem perfectly capable of sending their followers through the warp to where they want them, when they're in the mood. The Chaos gods' personalities could also be considered "fractured" since they don't behave logically. Tzeentch schemes against himself. Nurgle gets over zealous with plagues, wiping out life and causing him to lose the power he's gained. Khorne urges his followers to be so filled with rage that it hinders them on the battlefield. Slaanesh can get so caught up in self-indulgence that he/she lets victory slip away. And the Emperor being "not complete" sounds the opposite of powerful. Even if he became complete, like Slaanesh, that doesn't mean he would dominate for long. Slaanesh was top dog of Chaos for a brief period after being born, then got knocked down several rungs. And even at peak power, Slaanesh failed to really lay a beatdown on any of the other gods. Khorne, for example, stopped Slaanesh from completely destroying Kaine. Nurgle saved Isha from Slaanesh. Despite being canonically the most powerful at the time, Slaanesh wasn't strong enough to kill or thwart either god.
Also you have absolutely no proof that the LoTD is a result of gene-tampering. To say that its the most likely cause is misleading.
LotD are suggested numerous times to be the Fire Hawks, who were lost in the Warp. The Fire Hawks are from the Cursed 21st Founding. Every chapter in the 21st founding had their gene seed altered and "improved" upon, with all kinds of unexpected consequences. Now show me the links to sources that support an alternate theory.
Even if the LoTD are NOT the Emperor's version of daemons, there are also golden faced creatures that patrol the eye of terror.
Source please. The only golden faced, Emperor serving daemon creatures I can think of are from Warhammer 50k, which is fanfiction.
The Legion of the Damned being the Fire Hawks is old, outdated fluff. The Codex shoots that down considering the Legion appeared before the Fire Hawks vanished, and a strange gene mutation does not result in one becoming a legion of immortal ghost warriors that cannot die. Plus they're probably more numerous than the Fire Hawks supposed survivors, and the Astronomicon is mentioned as creating legions of angels of fire that purge entire planets of life in the Eye of Terror.
Oh, and even the Lexicanum isn't a source. A source is actually quoting material from source material, not a second party that cannot be verified.
Hey now. EVERYTHING in those Lexicanum articles has a canon source in the footnotes. It's a lot easier to just link to those articles than to type out a dozen sources, many of which you might not even be able to look up because they're print sources.
As for the Astronomican oozing out legions of angels that regularly pwn entire daemon worlds with ease... holy . That is such crappy, Kaldor Drago-carving-his-initials-into-Mortarian's-heart-and-then-doing-a-sick-360-off-a-Bloodthirster-with-his-wicked-radical-Emperor's-Holy-Skateboard level ing level fluff. I'm not saying it's not real. I'm just saying it sucks. That completely undermines Chaos as a serious threat. What is that from? Is it a Ward thing? It's a Ward thing, isn't it?
Unless you've been living under a rock, it's been the general direction the fluff has been shifting to since the Third Edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: It should be noted that the Eye of Terror is not, in fact, the "home turf" of Chaos. That would be the Warp. The Eye is simply an area (a very, very large area) where realspace and the Warp intersect, and where the physical laws of Reality give way to the dream-shaping properties of the Warp.
This is why Daemon Worlds and such exist within the Eye, but not wholly within the Warp. The planet was, originally, some spatial body that once belonged to the Eldar. Then the Eye exploded and covered it with Warp-stuff, corrupting it. Some worlds are then dragged fully into the Warp and get even more fethed up.
Even if the Emperor sends flaming angels to scour them clean... so what? It's the Eye. It's the Warp. Just as with Draigo, Chaos just wills it all back into place again, as if nothing ever happened.
No, Chaos doesn't will them back. It's described as an eternal warzone that the CSM's don't dare touch, as the outer ring of worlds are embroiled in flames that scour life. It's specifically noted as to show that "we're not even safe in the Eye from the enemy" to kill any idea of the Eye of Terror being some unassailable bastion of the Chaos Space Marines. You can run from the Emperor, but you'll die tired.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/26 06:51:17
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
AtraUnam wrote: Considering a norn-queen completely blots out the astronomic on for a brief moment when it screams I'd say not as powerful as everyone says.
Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love
The Emperor is the Eldar god in disguise OoOoOoOoOo
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
In the Novel Mechanicum people on Mars attempted to sit in an akashic reader in direct line of sight of the Astronomicon and they ... died quite quickly.
This also shows that The Emperor has substantial power to survive and wield such a device. In his current unfortunate state.
Citation needed.
. That is such crappy, Kaldor Drago-carving-his-initials-into-Mortarian's-heart-and-then-doing-a-sick-360-off-a-Bloodthirster-with-his-wicked-radical-Emperor's-Holy-Skateboard level 
First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks 
largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled 
most complete and painted 
beautiful models, couldn't resist 
the swarm will consume all
nothing new since 5th edition 
oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders 
in need of love