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So if I target a unit of SM with my blast market and part of the blast maker is hitting a landspeeder next to them would the land speeder get to jink.? According to the rules for jink it says the targeted unit may elect to jink so I would say no the speeder doesn't get the jink because it was not my target but at a live event the TO ruled that both units were targeted.? Just want some clarification

Tournament Organizers change the Rules all the time, as it was their event the only 'correct' answer was whatever they stated.

Outside of that:
The Trigger is 'targeted'
The Timing is 'before To Hit Rolls are made'

The Secondary Unit in this situation can not Jink due to the two above requirements. It was not the target of the attack when a Blast Marker scatters on top of it, thus it does not meet the Trigger within the Special Rule itself. On top of that most obvious reason, the To Hit portion of the sequence is being resolved when the Blast Marker scatters. This creates an additional timing concern as the Blast Marker scattering could be resolved after To Hit Rolls have been made, and an unusual loophole does form here as Blast Markers do not make To Hit rolls, so it is too late for the Unit to declare Jink even if it was somehow a Target.

Two concerns to keep in mind though:
The Jink Special Rule contains a Timing concern needlessly, the whole 'before To Hit Rolls are made' sentence should be deleted outright so it clearly occurs during and only during Step 2, closing possible broken situations
The Blast Markers Special Rule mention wounding the 'Targeted Unit' in situations discussing Hits against secondary Units, which has been used within arguments that Targeting extends to secondary Units and creates other broken situations

^ This the TO was wrong

oldzoggy wrote:
^ This the TO was wrong

The TO was wrong for RAW, but as JinxDragon mentioned, they can make up their own rules for their event. In fact, they have to in order to determine things like rankings and such. In addition, some make rulings to make the game be "more fair and balanced" to try and attract more players.

Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

they weren't the target tho the SM were. It's says under shooting "select target" not targets, then resolve the shooting. Under jink it says targeted unit my elect to jink. So RAW in the BRB if I don't select you as my target you cannot jink against my weapon

I've seen a TO rule it that all the units under the initial placement may elect to Jink. Units which were only hit because of a scatter may not. That seems like the best way I've seen it done, and I wish more TOs went with it.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

The rules for blasts do not change that you only target one unit. One.

If the blast/template is over 2 squads, and 'targetting' 2 squads, which is the single eligible target unit for declaring assault?

 deviantduck wrote:
If the blast/template is over 2 squads, and 'targetting' 2 squads, which is the single eligible target unit for declaring assault?

1) You declare target before you choose a weapon.
2) You place the center of the blast over one enemy model in target unit.
3) Rest of the units weapons must shoot at initially targeted unit.
That unit you can assault.

Think Deviantduck was using the question to highlight the inevitable problems with 'all Units under the Marker are Targeted' interpretation, not looking for a serious answer.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

No this is not the case. You target by declaring which unit you shoot at, not by placing the blast marker. In fact if you look at the shooting order you declare targets before you even pick what gun you are firing so they will have to declare jinking before they even know you are shooting a blast weapon.

Keep scrolling down, nothing to look at here
Sorry.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

No this is not the case. You target by declaring which unit you shoot at, not by placing the blast marker. In fact if you look at the shooting order you declare targets before you even pick what gun you are firing so they will have to declare jinking before they even know you are shooting a blast weapon.

Also not entirely true. Jinking says to declare jink after the unit has been targeted, but before to hit rolls are made. Which means you can declare jink at any time between he targets you, chooses his weapons, and picks up his dice.

Many people also let you declare jink after rolling to hit, if neither player asked or declared jinking and forgot. But that's a house rule.

Maybe this will help?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

This.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

This.

The thing is - the jink rule is really stupid in that way. It's not realistic or "fair" anyway - why would a third unit that the shell scatters to not have the choice of jinking? The projectile clearly flew in THEIR direction, not the original targets. So the original target wouldn't have jinked (because the projectile was clearly going to explode elsewhere) and the 3rd party unit would be allowed to jink.
Now back to the rules: Only the unit selected as a target is allowed to jink, period. How big the blast is or how far and onto what units it might scatter is not considered by the rule, therefore noone else gets to jink. The selected target for a blast weapon is always one specific unit and then a model within that unit. THAT unit is the only one allowed to use jink, if it has that rule.

nekooni wrote:
The thing is - the jink rule is really stupid in that way. It's not realistic or "fair" anyway...

And immobilized vehicles jinking is also realistic?
Perhaps the pilot in vehicle 2 is drinking some tea and didn't notice the shell coming in before it scattered?
It could be rationalized in 'real world' terms a million ways. This is more about how the RAW interact.

 deviantduck wrote:
And immobilized vehicles jinking is also realistic?

You do realize that the Main Rulebook FAQ that says immobilized skimmers can't jink (or would have if GW knew how the English language worked)?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

This.

...has no bearing in the actual rules.

As proven a fair few dozen times now.

 Ghaz wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
And immobilized vehicles jinking is also realistic?

You do realize that the Main Rulebook FAQ that says immobilized skimmers can't jink (or would have if GW knew how the English language worked)?

where?

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/40K_The_Rules_v1.0_Oct14.pdf

huh.. looks like here.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf

 deviantduck wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The thing is - the jink rule is really stupid in that way. It's not realistic or "fair" anyway...

And immobilized vehicles jinking is also realistic?
Perhaps the pilot in vehicle 2 is drinking some tea and didn't notice the shell coming in before it scattered?
It could be rationalized in 'real world' terms a million ways. This is more about how the RAW interact.

The whole game is not realistic.

What would make sense in the real world has no bearing on the 40k ruleset

Real World Common Sense/Real World Logic/How it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, if you place the blast marker over both the marines and the speeder initially, they are both being targeted by the blast attack. And if the speeder is targeted, then he can jink.

I think the whole you-can't-jink-blasts business only works if the blast drifts onto them. But if they were originally a target of the blast, it seems fair to me to be able to jink.

This.

Dude seriously? We already went over this with you

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/662358.page#8095570

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/662358.page#8095842

Still do laugh over the use of the words Targeted Unit in the Wounding section of the Blast Special Rule....
Didn't want to take it to the extremes Flingitnow did, but was I so glad when he brought up the logical conclusion as I do find it hilarious!

I believe will fix this in the next edition to release.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I believe will fix this in the next edition to release.

....


*snort*...


*giggle*....


Do you know how hard it is to keep a straight face to that line?

 deviantduck wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The thing is - the jink rule is really stupid in that way. It's not realistic or "fair" anyway...

And immobilized vehicles jinking is also realistic?
Perhaps the pilot in vehicle 2 is drinking some tea and didn't notice the shell coming in before it scattered?
It could be rationalized in 'real world' terms a million ways. This is more about how the RAW interact.

Thank you for quoting me out of context and building a strawman out of the first half-sentence you think disagrees with your infallible opinion. Maybe you should start reading the entire thing before you hit reply, then you would've probably seen this as well - in the same post:


Now back to the rules: Only the unit selected as a target is allowed to jink, period. How big the blast is or how far and onto what units it might scatter is not considered by the rule, therefore noone else gets to jink. The selected target for a blast weapon is always one specific unit and then a model within that unit. THAT unit is the only one allowed to use jink, if it has that rule.

Charistoph wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I believe will fix this in the next edition to release.

....


*snort*...


*giggle*....


Do you know how hard it is to keep a straight face to that line?

And if they do 'fix' it (assuming it needs fixed), they'll just screw up two other rules instead.

Rule interaction is not their strong point, so I don't take that as a joke....

Oh hey, its this dead horse again.

Seriously these threads are turning into the "can i take 2 coteaz in an army" threads. Need a sticky for topics that have been resolved(like this one) so they stop being brought up over and over.