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 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear. Perhaps not as clear as you'd want the answer to be for your own satisfaction, but (as before) the berzerkers can charge on the same turn they arrive from reserve.

It's over now. I will leave the miserable lot to debate it further, but neener neener neener. You lose.

Riiiight, because clarifying literally nothing is "very clear". The fact we're stil having this discussion means they were SUPER CLEAR, right? The fact they didn't just say "errata, add/replace hjungry for blood with: 'May charge the turn the disembark and/or deepstrike/enter from reserves even though normally not allowed to'." couldn't possibly be any clearer right?

Whale whale whale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Well it would seem that Gamesworkshop 40k seems to think they CAN assault 1st turn.

Some random Schmoe replying to a rules question has just about as much validity as using a magic 8-ball to answer that question...


There is nothing allowing them to assault after they arrive from reserve.

So at what point would you deem it official?

That's what the FAQs are for.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
The rule allowing them to assault is apparently to this board not a rule that allows them to do what it says it does. I have messaged FW,GW and emailed them and every single time they respond with the affirmative that they can.

The rule does do what it says it does. The problem is you're trying to make it do more than what it says that it does.

Except I wasn't adding anything more as you implied, I was using the rule provided. See the FAQ from GW or I'm sure that won't be good enough either right?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear. Perhaps not as clear as you'd want the answer to be for your own satisfaction, but (as before) the berzerkers can charge on the same turn they arrive from reserve.

It's over now. I will leave the miserable lot to debate it further, but neener neener neener. You lose.

No, it is not very clear, partially because it isn't on the official document yet. It was also asking one question, but did not provide the full parameters of the question, and these people tend to forget or not include parameters that are not included in the question. Namely, Deep Strike/Reserves was never mentioned in that "FAQ" itself, in addition, the unit Embarked in the Claw is not required to Disembark when it does arrive.

If they errata this rule, great, but until then, it does not mean what some people seems to think it means.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear. Perhaps not as clear as you'd want the answer to be for your own satisfaction, but (as before) the berzerkers can charge on the same turn they arrive from reserve.

It's over now. I will leave the miserable lot to debate it further, but neener neener neener. You lose.

No, it is not very clear, partially because it isn't on the official document yet. It was also asking one question, but did not provide the full parameters of the question, and these people tend to forget or not include parameters that are not included in the question. Namely, Deep Strike/Reserves was never mentioned in that "FAQ" itself, in addition, the unit Embarked in the Claw is not required to Disembark when it does arrive.

If they errata this rule, great, but until then, it does not mean what some people seems to think it means.

Except it does mean what some people think it means. Those people include GW, FW, and people like me who understand what assault on the turn they disembark means. It's almost as If some people are willfully mad at the rule and want to stick their head in the sand and cry about it.

The problem people have with the FAQ is that it asked the wrong question, not that it gave an answer they didn't like.

There is no restriction on a turn 1 charge. So a FAQ saying the rule is not effected by a restriction that doesn't exist hardly clarifies the question people really have which is does the rule override the Deep Strike restriction on a charge.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear.

Yes, it's clear that they can charge on the same turn that they disembark , regardless of the turn. Now please point out where it says they can charge the same turn that they disembark regardless of deep striking that turn, because that's the problem. Its not what turn it is, but because the rules disallow you from charging in the turn you arrive via deep strike.

Look folks, it's easy:

The RAW hasn't been changed. By the RAW, the rule does nothing, and the FAQ didn't fix that. But the RAI seems like it was cleared up. It really does seem like they meant to say they can assault on the turn their transport arrives from Deep Strike, but they just messed up saying it.

Someone has already brought this up in the comments on Facebook, so expect it to be changed to that when the official (ie not-draft) version of the FAQs shows up.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear.

Yes, it's clear that they can charge on the same turn that they disembark , regardless of the turn. Now please point out where it says they can charge the same turn that they disembark regardless of deep striking that turn, because that's the problem. Its not what turn it is, but because the rules disallow you from charging in the turn you arrive via deep strike.

Now you're just trolling. You just said that they CAN charge on the turn that they disembark regardless of the turn. Then you turn and try to counter argue that that's not what it means because it doesn't fit your narrative on how you think "regardless of turn" means. lol

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear.

Yes, it's clear that they can charge on the same turn that they disembark , regardless of the turn. Now please point out where it says they can charge the same turn that they disembark regardless of deep striking that turn, because that's the problem. Its not what turn it is, but because the rules disallow you from charging in the turn you arrive via deep strike.

Now you're just trolling. You just said that they CAN charge on the turn that they disembark regardless of the turn. Then you turn and try to counter argue that that's not what it means because it doesn't fit your narrative on how you think "regardless of turn" means. lol

think about that.

"regardless of TURN" Does turn mean deepstrike? No. It means their RAI is that you can assault after deepstrike BUT RAI is not RAW.

Literally all they need to do is what I suggested above ("May charge the turn the disembark and/or deepstrike/enter play from reserves even though normally not allowed to") and it'll solve everything. Gets the turns RAI into RAW, everyone is happy.

Edit: I brought it up on the comments in facebook, hopefully they'll see it and fix it.

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Sorry for the naysayers, the FAQ is very clear.

Yes, it's clear that they can charge on the same turn that they disembark , regardless of the turn. Now please point out where it says they can charge the same turn that they disembark regardless of deep striking that turn, because that's the problem. Its not what turn it is, but because the rules disallow you from charging in the turn you arrive via deep strike.

Now you're just trolling. You just said that they CAN charge on the turn that they disembark regardless of the turn. Then you turn and try to counter argue that that's not what it means because it doesn't fit your narrative on how you think "regardless of turn" means. lol

Yes. The problem is the turn is not the reason they can't charge, is it? How many times does that need to be repeated?

By the way, ever gonna answer that "can you run and charge" question for the ~8th time (by my count)?

 Ghaz wrote:

Yes. The problem is the turn is not the reason they can't charge, is it?

Technically no... however (and while I'm normally a rather loud proponent for clarity and specificity in rules), in this case, we have an FAQ entry about one specific unit's abilties that, while not as specific as it ideally should be, is, IMO, clear enough about what they meant.

They're given explicit permission to assault after disembarking, regardless of which turn that occurs in. The only way that this specific entity could be disembarking in turn 1 (a turn in which they are given explicit permission to assault after disembarking) is if they deep strike and disembark that turn.

It could (and IMO should be clearer... but it sufficiently addresses the point in this specific case, I think.



If they had access to a transport that doesn't Deep Strike, then the FAQ would be insufficient.

"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

 mjl7atlas wrote:
"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

Because ordinarily, a rule granting permission to do something on any turn would be trumped by a more specific rule that forbids you from doing something on a turn in which specific conditions apply.


Basic rule of thumb with game rules - the more specific rule always wins.



So in just about any other example, the fact that they are given permission to assault after disembarking on any turn would be insufficient to trump the rule that forbids them from assaulting on a turn in which they deep strike... The rule that applies to that specific turn takes precedence over a blanket rule that applies to 'any' turn.



The only reason that the FAQ works in this case is that the question was so specific to that unit and there is simply no other way for the response to apply.

insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Yes. The problem is the turn is not the reason they can't charge, is it?

Technically no... however (and while I'm normally a rather loud proponent for clarity and specificity in rules), in this case, we have an FAQ entry about one specific unit's abilties that, while not as specific as it ideally should be, is, IMO, clear enough about what they meant.

They're given explicit permission to assault after disembarking, regardless of which turn that occurs in. The only way that this specific entity could be disembarking in turn 1 (a turn in which they are given explicit permission to assault after disembarking) is if they deep strike and disembark that turn.

It could (and IMO should be clearer... but it sufficiently addresses the point in this specific case, I think.



If they had access to a transport that doesn't Deep Strike, then the FAQ would be insufficient.

The trouble is with GW's track record of what is seemingly perfectly clear rules and then changing them If we can't trust GW to say what they mean when the rule is clearly written, its hard to trust them when its a bit ambiguous.

mjl7atlas wrote:"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

It still seems you haven't grasped the concept of what is preventing the charge, and it has absolutrely NOTHING to do with the game turn.

c'mon guys this is pretty clear...

GW's intention is to allow them to charge after reserves.
but RAW they are not allowed, since none of their special rules specifically allows them to ignore the not-allowed-to-assault-after-reserve rule. not even the FAQ.

would i allow em to charge first turn? YES.
do i have to? NO.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

What rule prevents assaulting first turn? Nothing. What's preventing assaulting is the fact they entered play from reserves/deepstrike. Turn has nothing to do with it. So yeah, they can disembnark ANY turn and assault, assuming they have no other restrictions against assaulting (i.e. if they run, enter from reserves/deepstrike...)

 mjl7atlas wrote:
"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

Because, and this is the clue, there is no restriction on charging turn 1. Or turn 2

So allowing them to charge, not caring about the turn number, simply means nothing

Now if it said "they can charge on the turn they arrive by deepstrike" now THAT *specifically* talks about the restriction that needs to be lifted, i.e. charging after arriving by deepstrike.

Hrmmm, Let's try presenting it this way, here is a list of potential (but not full list) reasons a unit can be restricted from Assaulting:

Unit has disembarked from a Transport
Unit has Infiltrated
Unit has Run in the shooting phase
Unit has shot a heavy weapon
Unit has arrived from Deep Strike Reserves
Unit has performed a Scout redeploy
Unit has changed Flight modes

Note: Turn 1 is not listed as one of these restrictions because there is no such rule.

Now, let's pretend a unit has Arrived from Deep Strike reserves in a transport, Disembarked said transport, then ran in the shooting phase all in Turn 1.

Here is what the active and inactive Restrictions for the charge would look like:

Active
Unit has disembarked from a Transport
Unit has Run in the shooting phase
Unit has arrived from Deep Strike Reserves

Inactive
Unit has Infiltrated
Unit has shot a heavy weapon
Unit has performed a Scout redeploy
Unit has changed Flight modes

Now we have a rule that says we can charge after we have disembarked from a transport. Here is how that list changes

Active
Unit has Run in the shooting phase
Unit has arrived from Deep Strike Reserves

Inactive
Unit has disembarked from a Transport
Unit has Infiltrated
Unit has shot a heavy weapon
Unit has performed a Scout redeploy
Unit has changed Flight modes

Notice despite the rule for disembarking, we still have two active restrictions on the charge. This is the problem with the FAQ just addressing the fact that the rule works on Turn 1 and any turn for that matter. We already know this, and everyone in this debate agrees with that ruling.

The FAQ is correct, the turn has no effect on whether or not you can lift the disembarking restriction via Hungry for Blood. That does not mean that other restrictions can be ignored.

Stepping in to voice my 2 cents.

There is nothing in the FAQ that says you can charge after coming in from reserves, not a single thing. It is not even implied there.

Absolutely! There is no mention of the word "reserves"

So it CANNOT be "specific". Because it fails to SPECIFY.

Nah, they can charge. You're just salty.

1) I own bezerrkers
2) I have a claw

so really I only gain from this. Who'd have thought.

However the rules, as they stand, are not altered by the FAQ.

BTW youre violating rule 1. Have fun

 Ghaz wrote:

insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Yes. The problem is the turn is not the reason they can't charge, is it?

Technically no... however (and while I'm normally a rather loud proponent for clarity and specificity in rules), in this case, we have an FAQ entry about one specific unit's abilties that, while not as specific as it ideally should be, is, IMO, clear enough about what they meant.

They're given explicit permission to assault after disembarking, regardless of which turn that occurs in. The only way that this specific entity could be disembarking in turn 1 (a turn in which they are given explicit permission to assault after disembarking) is if they deep strike and disembark that turn.



It could (and IMO should be clearer... but it sufficiently addresses the point in this specific case, I think.



If they had access to a transport that doesn't Deep Strike, then the FAQ would be insufficient.

The trouble is with GW's track record of what is seemingly perfectly clear rules and then changing them If we can't trust GW to say what they mean when the rule is clearly written, its hard to trust them when its a bit ambiguous.

mjl7atlas wrote:"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

It still seems you haven't grasped the concept of what is preventing the charge, and it has absolutrely NOTHING to do with the game turn.

It still seems you haven't grasped the concept that the special rule bypasses your desperate grab to cling to some turn order requirement. The rule doesn't care what turn it is. The rule doesn't care first turn, second turn, third turn, etc. The rule states that it allows a charge after disembarking. If there is a rule the prohibits them from disembarking turn one, then you win the prize. Otherwise the rule over rides the BRB and is also the clear purpose from GW/FW as indicated by the FAQ specific mention, my screen shot replies and email responses I have posted. Go ahead and call them fakes if you want, but this is the kind of bs that makes people not want to play this game.

It still seems you haven't grasped the concept that the special rule bypasses your desperate grab to cling to some turn order requirement. The rule doesn't care what turn it is. The rule doesn't care first turn, second turn, third turn, etc. The rule states that it allows a charge after disembarking. If there is a rule the prohibits them from disembarking turn one, then you win the prize. Otherwise the rule over rides the BRB and is also the clear purpose from GW/FW as indicated by the FAQ specific mention, my screen shot replies and email responses I have posted. Go ahead and call them fakes if you want, but this is the kind of bs that makes people not want to play this game.

See, your rebuttal shows you are not really understanding what everyone is talking about here.

No one is saying the turn is what is blocking the charge. As a matter a fact, the same restriction that that stops the charge is still present on turn 2-7 as it is on turn 1.

That restriction is you can't charge after arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

So tell us, how does a rule that lifts the Restriction of Charging after disembarking a transport also lift the additional (and independent) restriction of arriving from Deep Strike Reserves?

 mjl7atlas wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Yes. The problem is the turn is not the reason they can't charge, is it?

Technically no... however (and while I'm normally a rather loud proponent for clarity and specificity in rules), in this case, we have an FAQ entry about one specific unit's abilties that, while not as specific as it ideally should be, is, IMO, clear enough about what they meant.

They're given explicit permission to assault after disembarking, regardless of which turn that occurs in. The only way that this specific entity could be disembarking in turn 1 (a turn in which they are given explicit permission to assault after disembarking) is if they deep strike and disembark that turn.



It could (and IMO should be clearer... but it sufficiently addresses the point in this specific case, I think.



If they had access to a transport that doesn't Deep Strike, then the FAQ would be insufficient.

The trouble is with GW's track record of what is seemingly perfectly clear rules and then changing them If we can't trust GW to say what they mean when the rule is clearly written, its hard to trust them when its a bit ambiguous.

mjl7atlas wrote:"Any turn" DOES in fact mean "ANY" turn. Not "any" turn "except", it means "ANY"! Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

It still seems you haven't grasped the concept of what is preventing the charge, and it has absolutrely NOTHING to do with the game turn.

It still seems you haven't grasped the concept that the special rule bypasses your desperate grab to cling to some turn order requirement. The rule doesn't care what turn it is. The rule doesn't care first turn, second turn, third turn, etc. The rule states that it allows a charge after disembarking. If there is a rule the prohibits them from disembarking turn one, then you win the prize. Otherwise the rule over rides the BRB and is also the clear purpose from GW/FW as indicated by the FAQ specific mention, my screen shot replies and email responses I have posted. Go ahead and call them fakes if you want, but this is the kind of bs that makes people not want to play this game.

You've missed the point completely. NOBODY cares what turn it is. The turn has never been the problem.

Also, will you answer the question about charging and running? (refresher: if you can assault after disembarking, thereby ignoring EVERYTHING else, can you charge after running?)

 mjl7atlas wrote:
It still seems you haven't grasped the concept that the special rule bypasses your desperate grab to cling to some turn order requirement. The rule doesn't care what turn it is. The rule doesn't care first turn, second turn, third turn, etc. The rule states that it allows a charge after disembarking. If there is a rule the prohibits them from disembarking turn one, then you win the prize. Otherwise the rule over rides the BRB and is also the clear purpose from GW/FW as indicated by the FAQ specific mention, my screen shot replies and email responses I have posted. Go ahead and call them fakes if you want, but this is the kind of bs that makes people not want to play this game.

Considering it says the same thing as Assault Vehicle, why should we treat it any differently than Assault Vehicle?

Which means that any Dreadnought riding a Drop Pod can Charge the same turn he arrives. Dark Eldar using their Webway Portal can Charge the turn they arrive. Necron Warriors coming in from Reserves on the table edge can Charge an enemy unit that same turn. Any unit coming out of the Assault Claw that was referenced could Charge when it Deep Strikes.

In other words, this rule means nothing for the situation in the Original Post, no matter your position on how much leeway permission to Charge covers.

Man orks would be OP with this idea in mind. Infiltrate and outflank everyoune then call a waaagh.

"It says I can assault after running! I guess I ignore EVERY restriction and my kommandoes actually assault from reserves! Cool!"

For those unfamiliar the waaagh! rule allows me to run then assault.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Man orks would be OP with this idea in mind. Infiltrate and outflank everyoune then call a waaagh.

"It says I can assault after running! I guess I ignore EVERY restriction and my kommandoes actually assault from reserves! Cool!"

For those unfamiliar the waaagh! rule allows me to run then assault.

And that should finally close this thread.

vercingatorix wrote:
Man orks would be OP with this idea in mind. Infiltrate and outflank everyoune then call a waaagh.

"It says I can assault after running! I guess I ignore EVERY restriction and my kommandoes actually assault from reserves! Cool!"

For those unfamiliar the waaagh! rule allows me to run then assault.

...wait what????? i completly take back my previous comments and claim the contrary! berzerkers are able to assault after they disembark!! the FAQ says so... for reasons call my lawyer, i will see you in court.