Dark eldar. Starting fresh.

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**Jimsolo**

Dark Eldar can be difficult to master. '40k Hardmode' is a common way to describe the army. Their playstyle is one that speaks to me, so I had an easier time of it. I've seen some folks who prefer static gunline armies grow frustrated with the DE and eventually bail on the army.

**flamingkillamajig**

Well I used to play skaven and though some might disagree in warhammer fantasy when your army book has an FAQ 8 pages long and was made for the previous edition and was forced to be in the current edition most of its life then you understand what tough is.

Not only that but some people said skaven were OP and i'll have you know without 'end times' skaven were middle tier at best. They had gimmicky things and if you chose the wrong stuff to take against some armies you just died (no cannons vs daemon princes or similar crazy stupid monsters equals dead and no abomination equals another uphill battle). Not to mention it was mostly the ETC competition army restrictions that caused most of the complaints for skaven OP and I never played with those lists.

Basically I'm already used to uphill battles with skaven back in warhammer fantasy before 'Age of Sigmar' took a steaming pile of poo and threw it on it. God what a horrible new game!

-------

I feel like skaven are like dark eldar's old codex. We started off really good and late in its life everybody else's army just got better to the point that the army started sucking hard.

**dominuschao**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
I too would like to start dark eldar.

I am quite another that didn't quite get to use the hoverbike 'zoom, head chop' feature and am sad to see it go even without playing with it.

That said I'm curious about everything. I want bikes, grotesques, wracks, warriors, trueborn and possibly even the wyches. I hear wyches are bad now but somehow I feel if another unit took the overwatch fire or you pinned an enemy unit (in 40k this is supposedly unlikely) that you were going to charge then they might not be so bad. In warhammer fantasy before it died 'stand and shoot' was more accurate than overwatch and was just as likely to fry dudes. Sometimes you'd have to send another unit to take the 'stand and shoot' attack for the other guys that couldn't. I'm not sure how valid this is for 40k but it seems valid enough that wyches might still be ok esp. against some armies that aren't armed with guns or aren't armed with anything likely to hit much (charge a heavy weapons team squad made for killing vehicles).

Again I am very new and don't even know all the 7th edition rules or even close yet.

From what I've seen so far grotesques (all have flesh gauntlets now holy crap!) and medusae are amazing now. I kind of want to make a squad of medusae and load em into a venom and just launch templates all over MEQ armies for laughs.

I'm curious about the way bikes work now but the models are still beautiful and the wracks look great and I've heard good things on their new weapon despite not being too sure about it or the best way to use it yet (might prefer to find out with some play time). I kind of want to use the wrack champion's hex rifle and spam minimum sized units of wracks on foot but I hear this is a bad idea and as time goes on the hex rifle seems less and less effective at doing most things. The likelihood it hits a specific model is rare and everything on its own probably has a ridiculously good save and wounds anyway. It's a shame too. It sounds like such a promising item that falls flat on its face these days.

All this said I hear dark eldar are very hard to play as and some have trouble recommending them to me. I used to play imperial guard back in 5th edition though (for about 2 and a half years) and the totally different flavor is exciting to me. I just wish wyches were still effective supposedly.

Stand and shoot vs overwatch is apple's and oranges brother. It's not even in the top reasons people decry wyches. The games are too dissimilar to compare. Check out thedarkcity.net to get a better bead on some of the units you mentioned, wyches in particular.

**Tinkrr**

Jimsolo wrote:
Dark Eldar can be difficult to master. '40k Hardmode' is a common way to describe the army. Their playstyle is one that speaks to me, so I had an easier time of it. I've seen some folks who prefer static gunline armies grow frustrated with the DE and eventually bail on the army.

Here's a fun question, what makes them hard to master? I always enjoy a challenge, and Dark Elder was an army I've considered, but what are the tactics that could help a player do better with them?

I really like armies that take a lot of learning D:

**Jayden63**

T3 on most units. 5+ or worse armor save. AV10 and open topped all around on most vehicles.

DE just die when getting shot at. We also dont have the protection of fearless or ATSKNF for when you start taking casualties and start running off the board.

DE is all about precise positioning and doing maximum damage with minimum return damage. You cannot win a war of attrition with them. They fight like Mike Tyson, not Rocky Balboa.

**Irubius**

I have two questions:

1. Missiles on Razorwings?
2. Scourges or Reaver jetbikes?

**vipoid**

Irubius wrote:

I have two questions:

1. Missiles on Razorwings?

Stick with the base ones.

Irubius wrote:
2. Scourges or Reaver jetbikes?

Both.

**dominuschao**

1. Missiles on Razorwings?

I prefer necros. No ap5 is the downside.. if it really is one- this depends on your meta. I guess you could argue for being able to hit light armour too although thats pretty dire straights to be in. Fleshbane otoh always wounds anything on 2+. Much better IMO with the loss of ap the main drawback.

2. Scourges or Reaver jetbikes?

Lolz as above. If you can only pick one then it depends what your trying to accomplish. Scourges are very specialized but great at what they do, unrivaled even, within the scope of the DE codex. They do however suffer from diminishing returns when taken in multiples.

Conversely I like reavers vs skimmers and well everything not specifically mech including things I need to dig out of cover efficiently and/or can jink. Lictor spam qualifies here btw. They also do objective plays as good as anything in the game and really don't suffer from spamming outside of cover ignoring. Hard to beat all that on a 63+ pt unit that can often start with 2+ cover and sometimes has it the entire game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Here's a fun question, what makes them hard to master? I always enjoy a challenge, and Dark Elder was an army I've considered, but what are the tactics that could help a player do better with them?

Many things. In general the army is fast and puts out respectable anti infantry at range. However it doesn't do attrition very well, in fact I'd go as far as to say the worst attrition army in the game.
Then as I mentioned above the weapons have almost no ability to do double duty like say scatter lasers or tesla cannons. Its either single shot anti tank or high RoF but NO strength value (worth mentioning that is).
Its a book full of combat options without assault grenades anywhere other than ICs and very fragile combat HQ builds to boot (although situationally amazing).
The army lacks credible anti aircraft and efficient answers to GMCs and super heavies. Theres tons of flexibility in the list in the same way that orks is built (not many stand out power units essentially) but if you encounter plenty of mech or the aformentioned GMCs/SHs very often then you find your choices taken away somewhat as your forced to spam dark light and haywire where ever possible to try and deal with these things which limits creative freedom.

That is the tip of it. This means you really need to make everything count.. warlord trait to deployment to going first or second, and build with the optimal or at least most common scenario in mind. Then manage your resources because we aint marines. If a turn goes badly it often just goes horrendously bad. Or if someone kills all your darklight you can't fall back on krak or other means. Your done.

On the flip side of things having an army where open topped skimmer transports are found in EVERY SINGLE SLOT bar HS is simply amazing. Conqueror of cities becomes godlike btw. The tricks other armies pull once in a blue moon are your staples. Surrounding to destroy a vehicle and the contents because you parked a raider at their back hatch, deep striking anything on a whim, boosting 30"+ to refuse a flank while your opponent goes aw fuk, putting grotesques GtG in ruins while reserving the rest of your army against skyhammer and watching your opponent go aw fuk. Then having them stand up fearless your next turn. Its about knowing the rules rather than ATSKNR(ules). Its probably one of the few armies where winning comes during the game rather than during the "list building" phase..

**Jimsolo**

Irubius wrote:

I have two questions:

1. Missiles on Razorwings?
2. Scourges or Reaver jetbikes?

1. Base ones. (Monoscythe?)
2. Scourges get more sure kills, but the Reavers are way more survivable. I like both, because they're incredibly cheap.

**Irubius**

How do you equip your shooty Archon?

And I wonder about equipment on Scourges aswell.

**vipoid**

Irubius wrote:
How do you equip your shooty Archon?

A blaster. That's about it.

I *might* give him something else - like a Clone Field - but it's hardly a requirement. The whole idea is that he stays away from the action, and if he's getting shot at anyway then wargear probably won't save him anyway.

Irubius wrote:

And I wonder about equipment on Scourges aswell.

4 Haywire Blasters.

4 Heat Lances if I want to see how spectacularly my Scourge suicide-squad can mess up.

**vorrax-ghul**

I took notice of someone who said if you're not winning don't switch out units. I've been writing almost a new list every 2 games. Wasn't sure where I was going wrong. But if I just got to stick it out I think I might just do that, but old habits die hard.

But in regard to what to get model wise I'd start stocking up on raiders, venoms and reavers. Unit wise kabalites are good to have, Personally I love the coven models but recently have been drawn to Wyche cult models. The kabalites always look lovely. Pretty much the who range of models is stunning can't get enough of them.

Regarding razorwings and stock missiles, shatterfield? not worth it? if you have some spare points? still not worth it? they just don't seem like a bad idea.

Tinkrr wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Dark Eldar can be difficult to master. '40k Hardmode' is a common way to describe the army. Their playstyle is one that speaks to me, so I had an easier time of it. I've seen some folks who prefer static gunline armies grow frustrated with the DE and eventually bail on the army.

Here's a fun question, what makes them hard to master? I always enjoy a challenge, and Dark Elder was an army I've considered, but what are the tactics that could help a player do better with them?

I really like armies that take a lot of learning D:

This too, if you're starting DE because you love the models (There are a lot easier armies to win with) then I'm going to guess you don't mind a few loses, so make sure you have fun. Its not even a bad idea to try theme it around which models you love. Or maybe start learning to love some of what's been mentioned. Then settle in it's going to be a bumpy ride to success.

**vipoid**

vorrax-ghul wrote:

Regarding razorwings and stock missiles, shatterfield? not worth it? if you have some spare points? still not worth it? they just don't seem like a bad idea.

Well, they're probably better than the fleshbane ones.

Personally though, I find that I very rarely have spare points. And, if I do, I can usually find sounder investments for them.

**Irubius**

I am currently looking at a list for my army. And I was wondering, do you use any upgrades on your vehicles?

**marcman**

If you just take your time and play really slow your first few games i imagine it would help, like chess the more you practice the faster you can play but those first few games youll probably want to take your time for sure and just know what every unit is ment to kill and avoid

**Irubius**

Does anyone use Sybarites just to get Haywire grenades?

**vipoid**

Irubius wrote:

Does anyone use Sybarites just to get Haywire grenades?

No.

5pts for a single haywire grenade is already excessive, without adding a further 200% tax on it.

**Jimsolo**

Too expensive.

**Madoch1**

Irubius wrote:

I am currently looking at a list for my army. And I was wondering, do you use any upgrades on your vehicles?

Equip them with either or both of the following: Splinter racks (if you want a bit more bang for your buck with splinter weapons) and/or nightshields (because 3+ jink, 2+ in night fighting is just great)

Yes witches are squishy but in close combat (if you can get them there) they are beasts

also if you're feeling gutsy take a shadow field generator on your HQ. (Either it fails on the first roll or your HQ will never take a wound)

Also i've found that pretty much any loadout for your army will result in a large number of funny/enraging shinnanigans. like a succubus taking out a war walker, or an wyches
making a ridiculous number of feel no pain rolls

last only give an archon a Parasites Kiss if you're fighting cultists or you just want to waste the points

**marcman**

If you wanted to avoid overwatch maybe look into taking a CAD of Eldar, their Aurtch can take a banshies mask for 5 pts that denies the enemy overwatch. I don't feel like DE are hard to play they lack what seems to be anti tank but they're low points and high damage and monuverability makes them fun to play and more interesting then say a necron warrior spam

**vipoid**

Madoch1 wrote:

Yes witches are squishy but in close combat (if you can get them there) they are beasts

Wait... since when are models with S3 attacks and no special rules 'beasts'?

I guess those Guardsmen and Tau Fire Warriors are also 'beasts',..

**Madoch1**

vipoid wrote:
Madoch1 wrote:

Yes witches are squishy but in close combat (if you can get them there) they are beasts

Wait... since when are models with S3 attacks and no special rules 'beasts'?

I guess those Guardsmen and Tau Fire Warriors are also 'beasts',..

Sorry i meant if you roll well on combat drugs and go in on the charge. And if they're bloodbrides

You have to admit that (depending on combat drugs and squad size) upwards of 51 attacks on the charge is nice (even at strength 3) or 31 (stength 4) hits on the charge

All at initiative 6. with a 4+ invuln and feel no pain (on or after turn two)

lots of ifs but again they can be beasts in close combat. i guess it depends on your opinion but every time I've gotten them into close combat they just wreck face.

**vipoid**

Sorry, but that's still not impressive. Maybe back in 5th (which our codex seems to have been designed for), but in the age of Super-heavies, Gargantuan Creatures, Wraiths, TWC etc., no.

51 would be an impressive number of attacks... if their stats were any good. The trouble is, they suffer badly from diminishing returns - in that it takes a stupid number of attacks for them to actually get extra kills. I mean, those 51 S3 attacks amount to 2.8 marine deaths. I'm still not seeing the 'beast'.

Perhaps it depends on your opponents. I know mine don't really play anything that wyches would realistically wreck (even with a good combat drugs roll).

**Madoch1**

vipoid wrote:
Sorry, but that's still not impressive. Maybe back in 5th (which our codex seems to have been designed for), but in the age of Super-heavies, Gargantuan Creatures, Wraiths, TWC etc., no.

51 would be an impressive number of attacks... if their stats were any good. The trouble is, they suffer badly from diminishing returns - in that it takes a stupid number of attacks for them to actually get extra kills. I mean, those 51 S3 attacks amount to 2.8 marine deaths. I'm still not seeing the 'beast'.

Perhaps it depends on your opponents. I know mine don't really play anything that wyches would realistically wreck (even with a good combat drugs roll).

Agree to disagree then.

And for the OP. i am sure you already know this but cover is your friend for vehicles. they're essentially flying cardboard boxes