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For my home brew version of 40k, I've figured everything out for now so that everything functions and I (kind of) have two compatible army lists to play it with! I just have a couple of fiddly things to work out for myself.

But I'm stuck on psychic powers. I've done away with random psychic powers. There is a list of psychic powers and they all have warp charge costs, profiles, etc. So far, Every psyker in the game has access to psychic powers by purchasing them with points. In addition to this, each psyker has access to a number of powers such that the total warp charge cost is the same as their mastery level. But should powers cost points? theoretically, if psychic powers are balanced against each other and their warp charge cost, purchasing them with points would be redundant. my only real intent with this is to make psychic powers an aspect of list building again, instead of rolling randomly for them, but I'm unsure of which method to employ and was wondering what others have seen work well.

EDIT: I'm not basing this on existing powers; I'm writing my own powers and everything.

I had an early draft I had been working on:

Each discipline has 6 powers. 4 basic, 2 advanced.
You get 2 powers per mastery level.
You select your powers at army creation.
For every advanced power you take, you must take 2 basic powers from the same discipline.

Some powers would need to be reworked (Invisibility, Divination, etc). There were some additional thoughts I had considered too:

Abjurations: These are psychic powers that could be cast during the opponent's Psyker phase, based on conditional requirements. From simple spell reflection to subtly messing up a blessing...
Specialist Psykers: Mono-discipline Psykers get +1 to manifestation rolls.
Unbound Psykers: For every 6 they roll when manifesting, they must manifest an additional die for 6 (and these explode too).
Perils of the Warp: For every matching Perils Die beyond the second (6s normally, or any doubles for Daemonology), add -1 to the Perils roll. For example, if you roll 4 6s, roll d6-2 to determine the result. For Daemonology, if you were to roll 3 3s and 3 4s, -2.

Some other ideas, including Psychic Conduits (Psyker A can use Conduit B within 12" as the point of origin for powers), etc. So a Tzeentch Sorcerer could cast through Thrall Wizards, Broodlords could use each other as conduits (an expansion of Brood Telepathy), etc.

 Powerfisting wrote:
In addition to this, each psyker has access to a number of powers such that the total warp charge cost is the same as their mastery level. But should powers cost points? theoretically, if psychic powers are balanced against each other and their warp charge cost, purchasing them with points would be redundant.

Not entirely accurate. Assuming you're just taking the the existing list of powers rather than writing up a bunch of new ones, some existing powers are more effective than others. Powers probably *should* have been balanced against each other, but they definitely aren't. Unfortunately, the best way to figure out how much to price something is probably just to eyeball it. When I took a stab at doing something similar wherein the points cost powers were presented as an alternative to randomly generating them, I treated the worst power from each discipline as costing 0 points. Then I compared the other options from there to figure out how much to charge. The way I was handling it, if you pulled all your powers from a single discipline, you also got the primaris for 0 points instead of its normal cost.

Now, your system adds a little extra complication to that with the warp charge limitations. Powers that cost multiple warp charges are essentially eating up your power-slot resource in addition to however many points you select. If you want to keep the WC-based limitation to how many powers a psyker can take, you probably have to factor that into your points cost. For instance, Eldrtich Storm is either a WC3 or 4 power depending on how you cast it. That presents its own complications, but let's focus on the WC3 part for now. My farseer is ML3 and can't be boosted above that. So if I take Eldritch Storm in your system, I am getting absolutely no other powers. It's not a bad power, granted, but I'm spending a lot of points to just get a single trick when you could instead be picking up multiple solid buffs that are easier to cast.

Then there's issues with psykers that start off at low ML. Say you have a Librarian that you want to give Hemorrhage from Biomancy for some reason. Hemorrhage isn't a great power. It's twice as hard to cast as, for instance, Smite, and that means you're also more likely to perils casting it. And then it simply isn't very reliable against a variety of targets. What's more, it's WC2 despite not being a great power. So if I were pricing it with my own system where powers taking extra WC doesn't eat up extra "power slots", I'd probably make that the 0 point power; essentially making it free because it's the worst choice in its discipline. In the system you're proposing, you'd have to pay an extra 25 points just to get the 2nd Mastery Level on your librarian, and then even if the power cost 0 points, you'd have to use up both of your "power slots" on one crummy power that's harder to cast instead of getting, say, Iron Arm and Smite.

So in other words, based largely on my own biases, I'd propose dropping the "warp charges as power slots" angle, and then doing this:
* Psykers may purchase any number of powers regardless of WC up to their ML.
* Price the worst power in a given discipline at either 0 points or cheap (depending on how it compares to other "bottom of the barrel" powers; sometimes the worst power in one discipline is still better than the worst power in other disciplines).
* Using the price of the worst power as a base, eyeball points costs for better powers in the discipline based on how good they are in an ideal situation. Bolded because with purchasable powers, you can generally count on people taking powers with a particularly nasty job in mind. People probably aren't grabbing Endurance for use with tacmarines. Assume that power is about to be slapped on a guard blob or thunderwolf death star or something.
*If all of a psyker's powers are purchased from a single discipline, they get the primaris for free/0 points; Possibly require they purchase powers equal to their ML to benefit from this. So no buying a single 5 point or 0 point power and then unlocking another 0 point power if you're ML 2/3.

And of course, get rid of Invisibility or else rewrite it completely. >:T

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Powerfisting wrote:
In addition to this, each psyker has access to a number of powers such that the total warp charge cost is the same as their mastery level. But should powers cost points? theoretically, if psychic powers are balanced against each other and their warp charge cost, purchasing them with points would be redundant.

Not entirely accurate. Assuming you're just taking the the existing list of powers rather than writing up a bunch of new ones, some existing powers are more effective than others. Powers probably *should* have been balanced against each other, but they definitely aren't. Unfortunately, the best way to figure out how much to price something is probably just to eyeball it. When I took a stab at doing something similar wherein the points cost powers were presented as an alternative to randomly generating them, I treated the worst power from each discipline as costing 0 points. Then I compared the other options from there to figure out how much to charge. The way I was handling it, if you pulled all your powers from a single discipline, you also got the primaris for 0 points instead of its normal cost.

Now, your system adds a little extra complication to that with the warp charge limitations. Powers that cost multiple warp charges are essentially eating up your power-slot resource in addition to however many points you select. If you want to keep the WC-based limitation to how many powers a psyker can take, you probably have to factor that into your points cost. For instance, Eldrtich Storm is either a WC3 or 4 power depending on how you cast it. That presents its own complications, but let's focus on the WC3 part for now. My farseer is ML3 and can't be boosted above that. So if I take Eldritch Storm in your system, I am getting absolutely no other powers. It's not a bad power, granted, but I'm spending a lot of points to just get a single trick when you could instead be picking up multiple solid buffs that are easier to cast.

Then there's issues with psykers that start off at low ML. Say you have a Librarian that you want to give Hemorrhage from Biomancy for some reason. Hemorrhage isn't a great power. It's twice as hard to cast as, for instance, Smite, and that means you're also more likely to perils casting it. And then it simply isn't very reliable against a variety of targets. What's more, it's WC2 despite not being a great power. So if I were pricing it with my own system where powers taking extra WC doesn't eat up extra "power slots", I'd probably make that the 0 point power; essentially making it free because it's the worst choice in its discipline. In the system you're proposing, you'd have to pay an extra 25 points just to get the 2nd Mastery Level on your librarian, and then even if the power cost 0 points, you'd have to use up both of your "power slots" on one crummy power that's harder to cast instead of getting, say, Iron Arm and Smite.

So in other words, based largely on my own biases, I'd propose dropping the "warp charges as power slots" angle, and then doing this:
* Psykers may purchase any number of powers regardless of WC up to their ML.
* Price the worst power in a given discipline at either 0 points or cheap (depending on how it compares to other "bottom of the barrel" powers; sometimes the worst power in one discipline is still better than the worst power in other disciplines).
* Using the price of the worst power as a base, eyeball points costs for better powers in the discipline based on how good they are in an ideal situation. Bolded because with purchasable powers, you can generally count on people taking powers with a particularly nasty job in mind. People probably aren't grabbing Endurance for use with tacmarines. Assume that power is about to be slapped on a guard blob or thunderwolf death star or something.
*If all of a psyker's powers are purchased from a single discipline, they get the primaris for free/0 points; Possibly require they purchase powers equal to their ML to benefit from this. So no buying a single 5 point or 0 point power and then unlocking another 0 point power if you're ML 2/3.

And of course, get rid of Invisibility or else rewrite it completely. >:T

I'm writing new powers for my game, too. Some of them are based on 6th/ 7th ed psychic powers, but its entirely a new list (no invisibility). I should have mentioned that in my OP that said, I love the method you have worked out for costing the powers!

My fear with having powers cost points is the force multiplier point- cost that a lot of psykers have would be lost in favor of tacking on cool powers. Perhaps the upper limit for the number of powers they know is based on their mastery level somehow instead of being their mastery level? It could be "Mastery level +1" or something?

Thanks for the compliment!

If you're largely ditching the current powers, you should have a slightly easier time costing the powers against one another and won't have to worry about powers like Hemorrhage that don't mesh well with your design method, so that frees up some options for you.

What exactly do you mean regarding the force multiplier thing? Are you saying that you're worried people will avoid taking, for instance, buff powers in favor of taking blasty powers?

The difference between "Powers = ML" and "Powers = ML+1, but use up slots equal to WC" is pretty small in most cases. At that point, you'd actually be giving ML1 librarians more powers than they currently have, and my Farseer would still end up with only 2 powers instead of three most of the time. In other words, ML+1 doesn't really solve the problem so much as push problems around. If you're rewriting all the powers that are available, just design them with your own restrictions in mind. If you want to have powers eat up extra power slots based on WC, that's fine; just keep that extra resource cost in mind when you design their effects and cost them. A WC2 power in your system either needs to have a discounted points cost due to being harder to cast and taking up more slots, or else it needs to actually be that much more potent of a power.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Thanks for the compliment!

If you're largely ditching the current powers, you should have a slightly easier time costing the powers against one another and won't have to worry about powers like Hemorrhage that don't mesh well with your design method, so that frees up some options for you.

What exactly do you mean regarding the force multiplier thing? Are you saying that you're worried people will avoid taking, for instance, buff powers in favor of taking blasty powers?

The difference between "Powers = ML" and "Powers = ML+1, but use up slots equal to WC" is pretty small in most cases. At that point, you'd actually be giving ML1 librarians more powers than they currently have, and my Farseer would still end up with only 2 powers instead of three most of the time. In other words, ML+1 doesn't really solve the problem so much as push problems around. If you're rewriting all the powers that are available, just design them with your own restrictions in mind. If you want to have powers eat up extra power slots based on WC, that's fine; just keep that extra resource cost in mind when you design their effects and cost them. A WC2 power in your system either needs to have a discounted points cost due to being harder to cast and taking up more slots, or else it needs to actually be that much more potent of a power.

My comment about force multipliers was that librarians, primaris psykers, and the like have stats and point costs that make them, by design, less powerful on their own and more powerful when acting in support of larger units or a number of other units. Making psychic powers cost points would make them too individually costly and loose some of the "Force Multiplier" flavor.

Thanks for the responses, though. I'm leaning more towards using points to cost psychic powers instead of warp charges, but still want to limit the number of powers they can learn. Maybe the warp charge cost of different powers has no effect, but psykers can still only know as many powers as they have mastery levels?

This is something of a personal soapbox - but I will never understand why GW didn't just steal the fantasy magic mechanics wholesale when they made the psychic phase a thing in 40k.

I'm not saying that fantasy magic spells are all balanced - or anthing like that because they're not - but the system itself is far more flexible, tactically interesting, and forgiving of armies that don't bring a lot of wizards.

So I guess I don't have any advice for how to pick powers, but if you're going to homebrew the rules then go all the way! Make the psychic mechanics better while you're at it.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had an early draft I had been working on:

Each discipline has 6 powers. 4 basic, 2 advanced.
You get 2 powers per mastery level.
You select your powers at army creation.
For every advanced power you take, you must take 2 basic powers from the same discipline.

Some powers would need to be reworked (Invisibility, Divination, etc). There were some additional thoughts I had considered too:

Abjurations: These are psychic powers that could be cast during the opponent's Psyker phase, based on conditional requirements. From simple spell reflection to subtly messing up a blessing...
Specialist Psykers: Mono-discipline Psykers get +1 to manifestation rolls.
Unbound Psykers: For every 6 they roll when manifesting, they must manifest an additional die for 6 (and these explode too).
Perils of the Warp: For every matching Perils Die beyond the second (6s normally, or any doubles for Daemonology), add -1 to the Perils roll. For example, if you roll 4 6s, roll d6-2 to determine the result. For Daemonology, if you were to roll 3 3s and 3 4s, -2.

Some other ideas, including Psychic Conduits (Psyker A can use Conduit B within 12" as the point of origin for powers), etc. So a Tzeentch Sorcerer could cast through Thrall Wizards, Broodlords could use each other as conduits (an expansion of Brood Telepathy), etc.

I tend to be a "big picture" kind of guy when designing things and struggle on smaller details like coming up with specific powers. As such, I actually have not come up with enough unique powers to bother with organizing them into discrete disciplines. All the powers in my game so far (but not indefinitely) are just part of a single pool to select from as needed. But those other ideas look really fun. Especially the conduits and unbound psykers. I have a lot of crazy ideas I want to implement but I need to balance the game in as basic a form as I can right now. I've probably involved too many things as it is for how little I've tested the game, but those ideas are definitely going to go on my "Try for version 2.0" list!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Belac Ynnead wrote:
This is something of a personal soapbox - but I will never understand why GW didn't just steal the fantasy magic mechanics wholesale when they made the psychic phase a thing in 40k.

I'm not saying that fantasy magic spells are all balanced - or anthing like that because they're not - but the system itself is far more flexible, tactically interesting, and forgiving of armies that don't bring a lot of wizards.

So I guess I don't have any advice for how to pick powers, but if you're going to homebrew the rules then go all the way! Make the psychic mechanics better while you're at it.

I would take this a step further and myself wonder why GW put a whole phase into the game about psykers. In fantasy it makes sense because someone who can shoot lightning from his hands is a little more impressive than a simple ballistic rifle. In the 41st millenium, however, mind bullets will kill you, and so will real bullets, just as quickly. Someone can shoot lightning from his hands and melt power armor, but so can a guardsman with a plasma gun. That said, I never played Fantasy, so my preference is more of a thematic decision than anything.

Well if you've never played fantasy I'll give you a little taste. Like in 40k, fantasy magic uses a number of dice. But instead of rolling and looking for a number of "fours" each spell just requires a flat number to go off. Say 6. Or 10. Or 15 for a big powerful spell. Roll the dice, and add them up.

Bringing a higher mastery level wizard doesn't automatically give you more dice. This is important because it means you can't just bring a million psykers and drown your opponent in power dice. Wizard level does matter though, because you get to add your wizard level to the roll. So a mastery level 4 wizard, can cast a "6" spell pretty easily for example.

Also dispelling - all you need to do is roll a higher number than the number they rolled. None of this "it only counts on a six so don't bother even trying" nonsense.

Now, there are problems and criticisms with this system as well - usually that it's too hard to get more power dice so on a bad roll a highly magical army is just hosed for a turn and can't do anything - but I still think it's infinitely better than what we've got right now.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Well if you've never played fantasy I'll give you a little taste. Like in 40k, fantasy magic uses a number of dice. But instead of rolling and looking for a number of "fours" each spell just requires a flat number to go off. Say 6. Or 10. Or 15 for a big powerful spell. Roll the dice, and add them up.

Bringing a higher mastery level wizard doesn't automatically give you more dice. This is important because it means you can't just bring a million psykers and drown your opponent in power dice. Wizard level does matter though, because you get to add your wizard level to the roll. So a mastery level 4 wizard, can cast a "6" spell pretty easily for example.

Also dispelling - all you need to do is roll a higher number than the number they rolled. None of this "it only counts on a six so don't bother even trying" nonsense.

Now, there are problems and criticisms with this system as well - usually that it's too hard to get more power dice so on a bad roll a highly magical army is just hosed for a turn and can't do anything - but I still think it's infinitely better than what we've got right now.

Okay. that's neat. I had figured as long as this thread had stayed on topic, the exact system I use for my psychic stuff wouldn't be necessary to disclose fully, but it appears I had figured wrong.

For full disclosure, everything other than movement and extra pre-- game stuff like reserves happens in the same phase, generically called the Action Phase. This includes close combat, shooting, repairing, medic stuff and psychic powers. Turns are run by a staggered activation mechanic such that only one units is used by a player per turn, so in practice gameplay is not nearly as jumbled and confusing as that last sentence sounds. Any way, psykers have two unique actions: harnessing warp charges and spending warp charges on powers. Harnessing a warp charge takes an Ld test; failing on a 2 or passing on 12 incurs Perils, which is a single hit resolved at a strength equal to the caster's toughness. So perils is relatively rare, but not totally irrelevant. Most powers cost one warp charge, others two. The intent here was to totally eliminate any instance of rolling dice and fishing for numbers. Since psychics are handled by Ld, the only time where a roll is required, it is at least weighted by some stat.

During testing, it occurred to me that for my Level 2 librarian to cast a big spell, I would need to spend two entire rounds activating him, only to harness warp charges and a third to cast the spell. This males me partial to splitting the action phase into an action phase and combat phase, so non- combat actions can take place without crippling potential for actual fighting.