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2015/09/23 20:27:09
Subject: Can you make a tournament Eldar list without Scatbikers, D-weapons, or Wraithknights?
As we all know, thanks to a certain poster in the General Discussion area, Eldar have not been winning any tournaments since their book dropped. My personal theory is that this is due to everyone knowing exactly what the tournament Eldar list looks like: Scatbikers, some D-weapons, one or more Wraithknights, possibly a Seerstar. This means that at a highly competitive level people can easily tailor thier lists to counter what Eldar can bring. But what if the Eldar player does the unexpected, and takes an unconventional list that doesn't fit the standard mold?
My idea is to use the latest ITC rules to bring a CAD plus two Aspect Hosts, containing Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, and two minimum-size units of Warp Spiders. This would allow more than enough mobility to claim the objectives in the modified Maelstrom format the ITC uses while having enough MSU to minimize vulnerability against deathstars. The Cad would focus on cheap scoring units of Guardians and Rangers, with a Seer Council on foot as protection against grav weapons and an Autarch for reserve manipulation.
Does anyone have other ideas about unconventional tournament Eldar lists? I haven't seen an Eldar melee list in a while...
Problem is, Warp Spiders are only S6 against vehicles. Some other units may be necessary for units like Imperial knights. Chaos Daemons also have several units that are functionally immune to Warp Spiders.
I dont think their lack of winning has anything to do with people knowing whats good in their codex. They still performed extremely well at NOVA, and I dont think anyone 'tailored' against them.
You can break the mold and use the other things in your codex, by all means, but at the end of the day you're intentionally not using the best units in your dex because you think its sneaky and no one will expect it.
This has worked in the past (Lictor shame even had Tyrant guard in there) but its also known as a 'non competitive' list. That said, Eldar codex is extremely strong, you'd be hard pressed to not perform well if you're a solid player with most anything.
Problem is, Warp Spiders are only S6 against vehicles. Some other units may be necessary for units like Imperial knights. Chaos Daemons also have several units that are functionally immune to Warp Spiders.
Well, there's that unit called fire dragons...
2015/09/23 21:44:55
Subject: Re:Can you make a tournament Eldar list without Scatbikers, D-weapons, or Wraithknights?
Dire Avenger Shrine: 3x10 DAs in Serpents w/Bright Lances
Aspect Host: 2x10 Warp Spiders, 10 Fire Dragons in a Serpent w/Scatter Lasers and ShurCannon
Crimson Hunter formation
Scatterbikes, D Weapons, and Wraithknights not necessary.
I've read those articles before, Jimsolo; I really appreciate your hard work and the effort you put into them. This definitely sounds like a legitimate and interesting tactic to explore, especially with Dark Eldar and Harlequins.
FTGTEvan wrote:Random - Triple Formation:
Dire Avenger Shrine: 3x10 DAs in Serpents w/Bright Lances
Aspect Host: 2x10 Warp Spiders, 10 Fire Dragons in a Serpent w/Scatter Lasers and ShurCannon
Crimson Hunter formation
Where's the psychic defense? What about objective secured? I see a lot of points spent poorly, such as the dual ten man Warp Spider units and the ten Fire Dragons. Also, this isn't 6th edition; Serpent Spam is out. The Wave Serpent is no longer a battle tank, but a means of effectively transporting units around while providing moderate fire support.
War Walkers
War Walker [2x Scatter laser]
War Walker [2x Scatter laser]
+ Auxiliary +
Aspect Host [+1 Ballistic Skill] Fire Dragons [4x Fire Dragon]
Fire Dragon Exarch [Fusion Gun]
Fire Dragons [4x Fire Dragon]
Fire Dragon Exarch [Fusion Gun]
Fire Dragons [4x Fire Dragon]
Fire Dragon Exarch [Fusion Gun]
Falcons start in reserve, firedragons go in falcons. Can put a farseer in two and autarch in one if you want depending on if you need them on the table at start.
Rangers start on objectives, or near- they have OS. There goal is to sit in cover and score while plinking away at things and being highly effective for their low low cost, you hope someone shoots at them because it is most likely a waste of time to try and kill a 60pt unit with a 2+ cover save. Are they going to kill things like scat bikes? nope. Are they going to score like crazy early on and be non trivial to remove in most metas? yep. I will take 5 models with a 2++ cover save sitting near/on an objective for the cost of about 2 scat bikes any day.
Army has total of 9 ML for psychic phase.
Warwalkers can outflank with scout if there is enemy light armor/artillery on the table, or just scout for better position.
shadow weavers go behind LOS blocking terrain, since they dont need LOS to fire.
Can opt for a sort of null deployment with just rangers / guardians / shadow weavers on the table. Put models in cover, and have warlocks use conceal if opponent null deploys with drop pod army/skyhammer- then you can bring in everything else as it comes with autarchs +1/-1 to reserves. Or start on table with most things.
Falcons+ Firedragons bring pain. 3 bright lances, 3 pulse lasers, 3 fusion blasters at BS 6 with assured destruction+crack shot, then 12 fusion blaster shots with BS5 and assured destruction. That's 24-27 Str8-9 shots with lance, melta, crack shot, assured destruction, etc all strewn about that you can choose to put wherever you want on the table. With possible singing spear tosses from farseers if you put them here and then the fusion blaster from the autarch if he goes in a squad. Considering the possibilities of the falcons DSing in on turn 2 with a 2+ roll, and no scatter, then putting them out 4" from each other, then deploying the squads inside 6" from each one you can setup rear/side armor shots and even be spread out enough against things like knights to prevent them from getting a shield to cover all the shots. Each fusion shot from the dragons alone that pens has a 50% chance of causing on explodes result.
Guardian blobs aren't even bad, can move 6" run 6" then fire Shuriken catapults with bladestorm 12", the missile launcher at whatever, and the singing spear 12". Against armor each unit is effectively a 24" threat range 2 shot missile launcher, against MC/GMC/infantry its a lot of shots at 24" for ~130pts each. Yeah they are toughness 3 and can die, but most tournaments in metas I play in you either face a lot of very high str guns so Toughness 3 might as well be toughness 4-5 because the wound roll is the same, or a ton of str4 shots- in which case toughness 4+ possible cover saves with conceal is not so bad. Plus you want to get these guys in range of being shot by things ultimately, because then your shadowweavers/war walkers/ vypers although not amazing are gaining PE when they shoot at the same thing. Synergy.
So the army has volumes of fire for AP/Hordes, has AT fire, has mobility, has ways to control where it goes, and has psychic mojo. Most of the shooting is either High str/low ap or bladestorm for MC, and armies that have lots of good armor saves.
I think its hard to make a bad eldar list tbh. It's not like dark eldar where you look at wyches and say "hey lets make a good wyche cult army"....
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/09/23 22:34:06
2015/09/23 22:09:54
Subject: Can you make a tournament Eldar list without Scatbikers, D-weapons, or Wraithknights?
I don't understand why Americans think Eldar don't win tournaments. Here in the UK, Eldar have won a large ammount of the tournaments here.
I personally won a tournament with a few scat bikes, warp spiders, dark reapers and hemlock wraithfighters. Sometimes its the way you build an army and some good match-ups which help win tournaments, not just net-listing.
2015/09/24 01:51:50
Subject: Can you make a tournament Eldar list without Scatbikers, D-weapons, or Wraithknights?
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers in Scatter/Cannon Serps
Hemlock
2 individual pulse laser Hornets
3 individual Lance/Cannon Falcons
Aspect Host (BS)
5 Avengers in Scatter/pult Serpent
2 units of 5 Dragons in double cannon Serpents
---
That's one I've had good luck with. Granted the Hemlock has a D weapon, but its not one of the more expected platforms and has more utility outside of that.
Also, feel free to swap one of the CAD Serps with the Host Avengers' to get the most of that BS boost. I just typed it that way for ease. But this explanation, has made that moot...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/24 01:55:12
2015/09/24 07:23:40
Subject: Can you make a tournament Eldar list without Scatbikers, D-weapons, or Wraithknights?
KillswitchUK wrote: I don't understand why Americans think Eldar don't win tournaments. Here in the UK, Eldar have won a large ammount of the tournaments here.
I personally won a tournament with a few scat bikes, warp spiders, dark reapers and hemlock wraithfighters. Sometimes its the way you build an army and some good match-ups which help win tournaments, not just net-listing.
Well to be fair this is an American forum. Except the few Americans who go to ETC every year and sometimes read / write at these boards, nobody really has any clue what's going on in Europe, despite Europe no doubt having a larger player scene (and population) in both Fantasy and 40K overall. That's why thread titles can sometimes be a bit puzzling. If it didn't happen at Nova or Adepticon or some Frontline / ITC event, it didn't happen at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/24 07:23:56
2015/09/24 10:57:30
Subject: Re:Can you make a tournament Eldar list without Scatbikers, D-weapons, or Wraithknights?
Dire Avenger Shrine: 3x10 DAs in Serpents w/Bright Lances
Aspect Host: 2x10 Warp Spiders, 10 Fire Dragons in a Serpent w/Scatter Lasers and ShurCannon
Crimson Hunter formation
Where's the psychic defense? What about objective secured? I see a lot of points spent poorly, such as the dual ten man Warp Spider units and the ten Fire Dragons. Also, this isn't 6th edition; Serpent Spam is out. The Wave Serpent is no longer a battle tank, but a means of effectively transporting units around while providing moderate fire support.
1.) it's 3 formations to fit into ITC list construction.
2.) Psychic defense is overrated. If you're not going to have ~15+ dice, it's not going to change much of anything.
3.) ObSec is overrated - if you don't want to be taking the best Objective Grabber in the game (Jetbikes) - then make sure you can kill whatever is standing on an objective or move on.
4.) Wave Serpents aren't bad, they're not just bananas
5.) It's all kind of an exercise isn't it? If you're not taking the best stuff out of the book, then you're going to have gaps, particularly when compared to the best stuff in the book.
~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
Have a look at Warp spiders. You do need BLOS terrain mind!
